FW index available to purchase/download

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

What's the verdict on butcher cannons on a Contemptor? S8 AP-1 doing 2 damage seems good and the morale penalty is cool...it is very pricey however. Looking at that or the Kheres based on the bits I have on hand.

[Blackheart1223]

What's everybody's take on Rapier Laser Destroyers? They are really expensive now, but have the potential to do 3D6 damage.

[Lord Kallozar]

Whys the giant spawn like?

[Sception]

5 power, only about 3/4 the points cost you would expect for 5 power, so it's cheap, but even so it's kind of disappointing, as its melee output is dramatically less impressive than that of a unit of regular spawn.  No leadership debuff, no mutated beyond reason rule, only AP-1.  Has the daemonic ritual rule, so you can summon it, I guess?  I'm not sure why?  It's got a lot of wounds, but only T5 and 4+/5++, so it's not super durable.  It's main gimmick is that its movement, strength, and attacks characteristics are all random, and the first time you roll for them each turn you have a chance of gaining d3 wounds back, potentially taking it above its starting number of wounds.

 

Honestly, after seeing the rules for chaos spawn, I was really disappointed with the rules for the giant spawn.  It's weak, offensively and defensively.

[Gordon Shumway]

The giant spawn might be one of the cheesiest units in the game. Pretty cheap, taken in units of one. Starts with 10 wounds and has random move, str and attacks. Every time you roll for one of those characteristics, you get more wounds if you roll a one or a six. As it gains wounds, it's random modifiers fo up until it hits 20+ wounds, at which point it gains the keyword Titanic.

[Lagrath]

Yeah. I would take 10 giant spawn, a bunch of maulerfiends, some nurglings, and some Heldrakes. You will give shooty armies fits.

[Dallas Drake]

What's the verdict on butcher cannons on a Contemptor? S8 AP-1 doing 2 damage seems good and the morale penalty is cool...it is very pricey however. Looking at that or the Kheres based on the bits I have on hand.

 

I think the Leviathan is better if you want a Butcher Cannon. The Butcher Cannon Array is quite nasty but you don't half pay for it!

 

For me the best weapon is on the Decimator, Souldburner Petard - 24” Assault 2D3 D1 (mortal wound). A Decimator with 2 Soulburners puts out 4-12 shots, with a hit rate of 66% it can really do some damage.

 

[Plaguecaster]

I'd prefer the butcher cannon or even the autocannon over the Kheres just for longer range as well as the better damage since most of my army will be short range. Though running a contemptor with a ectoplasma cannon could be cool especially since it doesn't suffer any mortal wounds at all from firing it

[adreal]

Yeah, but I built mine for heresy work, and the kheres was a good multi function tool, 24" does hurt, but it is also alot of shots at s7, not too bad

[Ramza]

Can anyone tell me how the Brass Scorpion looks in 8th? 

 

Also, what are people using as a Dreadclaw? FW no longer sells them?

[Midnightmare]

I'd prefer the butcher cannon or even the autocannon over the Kheres just for longer range as well as the better damage since most of my army will be short range. Though running a contemptor with a ectoplasma cannon could be cool especially since it doesn't suffer any mortal wounds at all from firing it

I am liking the Butcher Cannon, that is how my Deredeo is likely going to be armed. Though the actual FW Butcher Cannon from the Decimator looks time compared to the Deredeo Autocannons you know, so I am going 'butcher up' those :D

[Karinon]

Also, what are people using as a Dreadclaw? FW no longer sells them?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Legion-Anvillus-Pattern-Dreadclaw-Drop-Pod

 

Still on sale.

[Ramza]

 

Also, what are people using as a Dreadclaw? FW no longer sells them?

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Legion-Anvillus-Pattern-Dreadclaw-Drop-Pod

 

Still on sale.

 

 

damn i feel silly. I was looking for the older model and didn't even realize the Anvillus was actually a dreadclaw.

 

Thanks man.

[Paradigm]

My FLGS is also ignoring the strange DG, TSons restrictions. We are also letting myself and the other players use sonic dreads and vindicator laser destroyers which are not listed for some strange reason. Well I kind of get the loss of the Sonic dreads, but the vindicator laser destroyer model is still available.

At least in this edition of the game it's really easy to rebuild our old models. 

[Kol Saresk]

Honestly, I think everyone's freaking out over nothing. TS/DG can have Helbrutes, Predators, Land Raiders, and Heldrakes. Everything in FW is a variation of those things. Pretty sure they're not restricted. Because otherwise they can't have anything in the FW books. At all. Unless there's a Hellforged Predator mentioned in that restrictions list somewhere that I didn't see.

[Sception]

Death Guard don't get heldrakes.  Rapier batteries aren't a variant of the things you mentioned, they're a variant of basic CSMs/Havocs, and neither thousand sons nor death guard can take those.  The restriction doesn't list what you can't take, it lists what you can.  So if something isn't mentioned, then by the rules you can't take it.  Everyone agrees this isn't intended for at least some things, but for which specific things is unclear.  You should probably be allowed to field Death Guard blight drones and thousand sons helforged predators, but you're probably not intended to be able to field TS or DG rapier batteries, because the apparent intent of the restrictions is that the cult legions only have access to cult marines, not regular marines like basic CSMs, regular terminators, normal havocs & bikes, and the rapier crew fall into that category.

 

In any event, official clarification would be nice, because while the intent seems relatively clear, the text of the rules is absolutely clear, and very much in conflict with that intent.

Edited June 20, 2017 by malisteen

[Cryptix]

Can anyone tell me how the Brass Scorpion looks in 8th? 

 

Also, what are people using as a Dreadclaw? FW no longer sells them?

M12 degrading WS and BS 3+ S10 degrading T8 W20 with a 3+ save. The hellmaw blasters are now pistol flamers, at S U and -2 AP. The Bombard is a former large blast at STR 12, -3 D6 damage increasing to 2D6 damage vs vehicles monsters and buildings! Scorpion cannon is Heavy 10 S6 -2 2D, and Claws are +4 -4 Damage 6. It has daemon engine for the invuln, heals a wound every turn, has the ability to shoot infantry in CC, Rolls 3D6 for charges, psykers targeting him (friend or foe!) peril on an doubles, and on a 4+ when it dies units within 2D6" takes D6 MW.

[Gordon Shumway]

Death Guard don't get heldrakes.  Rapier batteries aren't a variant of the things you mentioned, they're a variant of basic CSMs/Havocs, and neither thousand sons nor death guard can take those.  The restriction doesn't list what you can't take, it lists what you can.  So if something isn't mentioned, then by the rules you can't take it.  Everyone agrees this isn't intended for at least some things, but for which specific things is unclear.  You should probably be allowed to field Death Guard blight drones and thousand sons helforged predators, but you're probably not intended to be able to field TS or DG rapier batteries, because the apparent intent of the restrictions is that the cult legions only have access to cult marines, not regular marines like basic CSMs, regular terminators, normal havocs & bikes, and the rapier crew fall into that category.

 

In any event, official clarification would be nice, because while the intent seems relatively clear, the test of the rules is absolutely clear, and very much in conflict with that intent.

I think we need to be a bit more precise with our language here as it seems (at least reading from a fair number of comments from another unnamed forum) a fair number of people are getting the wrong interpretation. You say "The restriction doesn't list what you can't take, it lists what you can.  So if something isn't mentioned, then by the rules you can't take it."

 

That isn't quite right. The list is what can be marked "Death Guard", not what you can or cannot "take". You can "take" anything as long as it has the "chaos" keyword. A better way to refer to it might be the list tells you what your Death Guard can interact with on the battlefield. A Death Guard army can "take" berserkers as troops choices, but Typhus isn't going to be wanting to help them out all that much.

 

Some things, like Greater Blight Drones, which should be able to be buffed by DG, are certainly an oversight though.

[Sception]

The Brass Scorpion was previewed on the warhammer community page, you can see the dataslate here:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/05/forge-world-preview-indexes/

[Sception]

 

Death Guard don't get heldrakes.  Rapier batteries aren't a variant of the things you mentioned, they're a variant of basic CSMs/Havocs, and neither thousand sons nor death guard can take those.  The restriction doesn't list what you can't take, it lists what you can.  So if something isn't mentioned, then by the rules you can't take it.  Everyone agrees this isn't intended for at least some things, but for which specific things is unclear.  You should probably be allowed to field Death Guard blight drones and thousand sons helforged predators, but you're probably not intended to be able to field TS or DG rapier batteries, because the apparent intent of the restrictions is that the cult legions only have access to cult marines, not regular marines like basic CSMs, regular terminators, normal havocs & bikes, and the rapier crew fall into that category.

 

In any event, official clarification would be nice, because while the intent seems relatively clear, the test of the rules is absolutely clear, and very much in conflict with that intent.

I think we need to be a bit more precise with our language here as it seems (at least reading from a fair number of comments from another unnamed forum) a fair number of people are getting the wrong interpretation. You say "The restriction doesn't list what you can't take, it lists what you can.  So if something isn't mentioned, then by the rules you can't take it."

 

That isn't quite right. The list is what can be marked "Death Guard", not what you can or cannot "take". You can "take" anything as long as it has the "chaos" keyword. A better way to refer to it might be the list tells you what your Death Guard can interact with on the battlefield. A Death Guard army can "take" berserkers as troops choices, but Typhus isn't going to be wanting to help them out all that much.

 

Some things, like Greater Blight Drones, which should be able to be buffed by DG, are certainly an oversight though.

 

 

If you're basing your army on the Death Guard faction keyword, which is what 'fielding a Death Guard army' should be interpreted to mean, then the units that can take the Death Guard keyword are absolutely what you are allowed to take, while the units that cannot have that faction keyword cannot be taken in a 'death guard army'.

 

Of course those units could be used in a general Chaos faction army that just happens to include a lot of Death Guard stuff otherwise, but so could Tzaangors and Scarab Occult Terminators, and nobody would argue semantics with me if I said you cannot take those in a Death Guard army.

[Gordon Shumway]

Then that is your issue if you want to restrict yourself to all <faction>, not GWs in the way they wrote the rules or write the fluff. Really, I think the idea of an all <faction> army is a bit outdated and doesn't jive with the fluff laid out in the rulebooks where nurgle daemons are fighting alongside Plague marines in one area of the battlefield and bloodletters are fighting in another or where a Night Lords band is taken on as extra help in a Black Legion raid led by a Thousand Son sorcerer. If you want to go with that restriction, fine, but don't say that is what one "should" be expected to do when GW doesn't seem to see it that way. And why complain about restrictions, when you are the one making that decision to restrict yourself?

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Any thought on a vanilla Decimator ? I'm looking for a wannabe Slaanesh subjugator to stop any Berzerks or horde army who want to end prematurely my SM sweet songs.

[Sception]

Then that is your issue if you want to restrict yourself to all <faction>, not GWs in the way they wrote the rules or write the fluff. Really, I think the idea of an all <faction> army is a bit outdated and doesn't jive with the fluff laid out in the rulebooks where nurgle daemons are fighting alongside Plague marines in one area of the battlefield and bloodletters are fighting in another or where a Night Lords band is taken on as extra help in a Black Legion raid led by a Thousand Son sorcerer. If you want to go with that restriction, fine, but don't say that is what one "should" be expected to do when GW doesn't seem to see it that way. And why complain about restrictions, when you are the one making that decision to restrict yourself?

 

We're getting <faction> codeces that narratively and mechanically encourage <faction> armies.  Do not mistake temporary tide-you-over rules intended to let you play your existing models with design philosophy going forward.  I'm a black legion player, I'm all about mixing everything, but GW knows that's not what most CSM players are about.  The traitor legions book was about signalling that they're going back to that.  That's what the point of the cult legion restrictions is in the first place - if they were really abandoning subfactions conceptually, the cult legions wouldn't have any restrictions on what can take their faction keyword apart from marks.

[Gordon Shumway]

I'm not saying they are abandoning subfactions, but that the lines are blurred. We could do it in the previous edition too, but needed to take different detachments to do so. Now, that restriction has disappeared. We still have the benefits of limiting our options to narrower restrictions (better army wide synergy), but fewer penalties (much fewer taxes). To put it another way, I see GW encouraging faction building by using carrots, not restricting by using sticks. Maybe I'm just a glass half full kind of guy? If you want more carrots, stick to one faction. But I don't see the point of the complaints of not having enough carrots when we are offered the whole salad bar.

[Sception]

The lines may be blurred, but they're still there.  The blight drone has, since its introduction, been associated with the death guard.  The fact that it can't have the death guard keyword in 8th is a problem that needs to be fixed.  Not a game breaking one, but a problem none the less.  Would you be excusing of rules that accidentally-but-absolutely banned blood angels rhinos?  Or ultramarines devastators?  Would you consider it 'no big deal' if Khârn lacked the world eaters keyword?  If Night Lords bikers weren't allowed by the rules?

 

If, due to some oversight on the rules writer's part, you couldn't field an Emperor's Children dreadnought, would you say "oh, that's ok, that doesn't need to be fixed, because people can just put world eaters dreadnaughts in your otherwise EC army and call it generic chaos?  If the World eaters got a revamp with a new model for daemon Angron but no rules to go with, would you say "eh, its fine, just run him as counts-as mortarion," and brush off the narrative and mechanical dissonance of doing so with a pithy salad metaphor?

 

 

Look, I'm loving 8th edition so far, and I think our index rules are, overall, the best version of CSM rules since 3rd edition, but there are some problems.  It's one thing to say they're not big problems, because they're not, but its another to insist that they aren't problems at all, and in doing so to imply that it would be ok if they were left as is.  I don't think a Death Guard player asking to field his blight drone without breaking his faction and losing whatever benefits come with it in the upcoming codex is being unfair or greedily asking for too many carrots.

Edited June 20, 2017 by malisteen