FW Index Astartes

[Xenith]

 

FW rules are a supplement to, but do not supercede GW models rules (same company).

 

Unless the FW index specifically states that DW can take certain models, then you have to stick with the list of what DW can take, which is found in their index. Same for BA, DA, SW etc.

 

By that logic it means that neither Blood angels, dark angels, space wolves etc can take any stuff from FW either cause there is no mention of any FW units in the restrictions list in Index Imp 1 of what they can take outside their section. That would make the whole FW index quite pointless now?

 

 

That's exactly what I wrote. And no, it means only codex chapters get FW units, which is far from useless.

 

Apparently the same has happened with Chaos and FW have responded with the promise of a quick errata to allow non codex chapters/legions to add their chapter name to FW datasheets.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Xenith

[Master Avoghai]

okay guys... needed to call FW for an order modification so I've profited to ask the question

 

The deathwatch should NOT be considered as an astartes chapter but rather like a separate ordo and therefore, like the GK, hey should be considered as not able to field the SM tanks in the FW index.

 

I've informed him that several people are asking for such clarification on the Facebook page and that they should really check the comment section and answer ...

 

Also, I've added that if I understand that deathwatch should not be able to field weird things as spartan or sicaran venator, they should at least have a restricted list of item including dread pods, contemptors and rhino/Land raiser variants. He agreed with that and sais that FW is aware of this problem and will hopefully resolve it this way in an official update.

[Mobius0288]

But I can still take it in an auxiliary detachment :) Guess it'll just have to be an imperial fist Leviathan dreadnaught

[Anarnii]

This makes no sense as in the main index it specifically says replace <chapter> with deathwatch. Has anyone got a photo of the page?

[Master Avoghai]

This makes no sense as in the main index it specifically says replace <chapter> with deathwatch. Has anyone got a photo of the page?

You're wrong

 

It states that you replace <chapter> with deathwatch only for a restricted number of units listed below.

 

It doesn't states that EVERY TIME you see <chapter> you are allowed to replace (no deatwatch predator or centurions for example)

 

The problem is that such page doesn't exist in the FW index book hence we don't even know how to proceed for chapters like DA or SW

[Vel'Cona]

Wow, what a mess.  Typical "one hand doesn't know what the other's doing" between GW and FW design teams.  Here's hoping for a quick resolution!

[Master Avoghai]

Wow, what a mess. Typical "one hand doesn't know what the other's doing" between GW and FW design teams. Here's hoping for a quick resolution!

Welle that's actually how it works for years now...

 

GW releases an IK model... don't you think it wouldn't have been smarter to work with FW so that they can release IK conversion kit at the same time? Of wourse it would... but they didn't

 

Moreover they relaesed the renegade profile just after the new Chaos IK conversion kit and the rules didn't match

 

GW release plastic HH models... did they stick with the standard pair of arms like for 5 years of resin models? Noooo : they released models with weapons sticked to the right hand forcing FW to redo ALL the range of resin marines and special weapons...

 

If there's an ambitious project the new CEO should work on now 40k is done, it's really the relation between the 3 divisions of GW

Edited June 24, 2017 by Master Avoghai

[Irbis]

Wow, what a mess.  Typical "one hand doesn't know what the other's doing" between GW and FW design teams.  Here's hoping for a quick resolution!

 

More like between FW and FW design teams. All they can do is produce nice models and fluff, but their rules are typically garbage, very weak or blatantly OP.

 

To give you one example, in the new Xenos index there is a tau flyer. It has gun that can only fire if model stands still, or has titanic keyword. Said tau flyer has no titanic keyword and minimum speed of 20 inches, and cannot hover. Anyone kind of sees problem here? And not one that can be blamed on GW?

 

 

GW release plastic HH models... did they stick with the standard pair of arms like for 5 years of resin models? Noooo : they released models with weapons sticked to the right hand forcing FW to redo ALL the range of resin marines and special weapons...

 

Why wound they? FW way of doing things is really bad, something that can be confirmed by anyone who ever tried to do CSM models (or old SM tacticals). GW abandoned this way of making arms for a reason (though it would be nice if they had 1-2 hand-less guns on sprues but given the choice between the two I'll take GW model any day). People buying fiddly FW resin might make patience (and protective gear) to make it work but I don't find slicing very expensive resin guns and hands trying to put them together in some realistic looking way to field a mini very appealing. If anything, this 'redo' was needed because now they actually do things compatible with the plastic range

 

If there is need to change anything in GW/FW relationship, it's GW having someone competent to oversee both FW rules and model sprues, but also making them more official and accessible in return...

[criddopher]

since deathwatch was released GW just continues to take anything that made them cool away.  I kept my models in hopes that they would AT LEAST get FW stuff after they said no primaris marines. But if its true they cant even get FW, yeah time to sell these models..  anyone interested PM me, seriously.

[Ordo Xenos Inquisitor]

okay guys... needed to call FW for an order modification so I've profited to ask the question

 

The deathwatch should NOT be considered as an astartes chapter but rather like a separate ordo and therefore, like the GK, hey should be considered as not able to field the SM tanks in the FW index.

 

I've informed him that several people are asking for such clarification on the Facebook page and that they should really check the comment section and answer ...

 

Also, I've added that if I understand that deathwatch should not be able to field weird things as spartan or sicaran venator, they should at least have a restricted list of item including dread pods, contemptors and rhino/Land raiser variants. He agreed with that and sais that FW is aware of this problem and will hopefully resolve it this way in an official update.

 

 

Since when does ForgeWorld's customer service representatives know the intricate details of the rules? I mean, don't they just manage orders and stuff? 

 

That being said, I am not buying it at all. ForgeWorld's Index never specified what is permitted and and what is not it on their book the restrictions listed there. Fluffwise, I can picture the Deathwatch not getting these things simply because it's out of character for them in-fluff. They are not a Astartes Chapter that just charges in at the enemy head on. They go in, do significant damage to the enemy and leaveutta there. 

 

Although now that I think about it, the Deathwatch are among the very rare breed of non-compliant Chapters like the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves, where they got their own unique special rules and restrictions so I can understand why the representative would respond as such. Oh well, no harm done. I still love my boys in black and silver. :D

Edited June 26, 2017 by Ordo Xenos Inquisitor

[hmk17]

Deathwatch are not an Astartes Chapter at all in the Fluff. They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos.

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

Deathwatch are not an Astartes Chapter at all in the Fluff. They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos.

 

The Deathwatch is referred to as a Chapter several times in my LE codex. The Ordo Xenos and the Deathwatch are also considered two separate organizations in current fluff.

[shandwen]

Deathwatch is clearly it's own chapter, but, it is also clearly not codex-compliant and would lack the means to deploy much of the equipment (fellblades for example) that other chapters would have.

Would it possibly have some true heavy support? Sure. That support would probably lean towards dreads and land raider rather than battle tanks, but an occasional tank would not be unheard of.

[sockwithaticket]

Deathwatch is clearly it's own chapter, but, it is also clearly not codex-compliant and would lack the means to deploy much of the equipment (fellblades for example) that other chapters would have.

Would it possibly have some true heavy support? Sure. That support would probably lean towards dreads and land raider rather than battle tanks, but an occasional tank would not be unheard of.

Yep. I can see them not having certain tanks, but you'd feel that support platforms like Rapiers, Tarantulas and Deathstorm drop pods would be right up their alley. Similarly, any kind of Dread (ok maybe they don't need access to a Chaplain Dread, but Mortis absolutely within their wheelhouse).

 

It really shouldn't have been difficult to print a short list saying 'the following units are accessible to faction Deathwatch:' (or whatever the new thing is - keyword <Deathwatch> or some such).

[Master Avoghai]

 Since when does ForgeWorld's customer service representatives know the intricate details of the rules? I mean, don't they just manage orders and stuff? 

 

Since when? Well, I dont' know what you are doing for a living but as being in contact with customers every day, if I have one who ask me something that I don't know I immediately mail my hierarchy in order to have the answer from the concerned service. That's what a good customer service does actually.

 

Also, I find your remark on the definition of their job a little bit harsh... it seems to implied that those cannot have a brain or a professionnal conscience and they are here for a monotask work without the right to communicate with their collegues.

[shandwen]

The FW customer service reps try... But not even their rules people know the basic rules all that well, and the csr's are not even that qualified to give many of the answers they do. There are many blatant errors in their rulings.

[Iron Lord]

Given how wide the selection of vehicles available to Deathwatch in the FFG game was (and how the emphasis seemed to be on them getting the best stuff first, like Stormravens), the extremely limited selection in the 7e Codex and 8e Index always rubbed me up the wrong way.

 

Plus, in the 7e Index Astartes hardback, most of the interesting stuff was available to all 3 major variant chapters (and when it wasn't - Contemptor - they got their own versions - Space Wolves got their own Contemptor variant, for example)

 

As such, I'd say that, at least by default, the Index Astartes stuff should be added to the lists of options available, for all Chapters.

 

Maybe even Grey Knights, given that they had a bit wider selection of stuff available, in the fluff.

 

I can't see why Malcador wouldn't have given them a big chunk of what were the most advanced vehicles at the time of the Heresy.

[Vel'Cona]

Really I don't think anyone's questioning the validity from a background/fluff/lore standpoint.  The problem is the unclear rules in regard to Faction Keywords and the <Chapter> stuff from Imperial Index I.  The incoming FAQs have a lot to answer for . . .

[Iron Lord]

I would suggest that intent is that the Indexes add everything in them that has the [chapter] swappable faction, to all Adeptus Astartes lists.

[Irbis]

Deathwatch are not an Astartes Chapter at all in the Fluff. They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos.

 

Aren't chamber militant dead, though? After 3rd edition, there was no more mention of that awkward hereticus/sororitas welded army list, since 5th edition GK are a lot more independent from malleus, and even DW in 7th edition stands alongside xenos, not behind them. Watch masters can even openly oppose 'wrong' Inquisitors, I don't think chambers are a thing now besides sort of common goal with overarching inquisitorial structure...

 

I would suggest that intent is that the Indexes add everything in them that has the [chapter] swappable faction, to all Adeptus Astartes lists.

 

I'd be careful with this seeing a lot of these vehicles were SM only past 3 editions and SW, DA, etc couldn't take them.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Irbis

[Iron Lord]

Enough of them were available to multiple chapters in some way (even if only as variants) - that it doesn't bother me to expand a few chapters's armouries beyond what they got in last edition.

 

In the War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes hardback, in addition to Codex Space Marines (which got pretty much everything):

 

Dark Angels got Chaplain Dreadnoughts, Mortis Dreadnoughts, Contemptor, and Contemptor Mortis

 

Space Wolves, and Dark Angels (but not Blood Angels), got Fire Raptors and Storm Eagles, Siege Dreadnoughts, and Relic Predator Deimos.

 

All three got Caestus., Tempest Land Speeder, Javelin, Tarantula Sentry Battery, Rapier Battery, various Land Raider variants, Sicaran, Whirlwind Hyperios, Relic Whirlwind Scorpius, Dreadnought Drop Pod, Deathstorm Drop Pod, Damocles, Infernum Razorbacks, and possibly other things as well. Superheavies weren't restricted, for one thing.

 

And in the previous book - Imperial Armour Apocalypse - Space Wolves and Blood Angels got their own versions of the Contemptor.

 

 

So, in this context - giving Blood Angels and Space Wolves a few things they couldn't take before, doesn't bother me. I can't see any reason why they wouldn't put wounded Chaplains in Dreadnoughts, for example.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Iron Lord

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

 

Deathwatch are not an Astartes Chapter at all in the Fluff. They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos.

 

Aren't chamber militant dead, though? After 3rd edition, there was no more mention of that awkward hereticus/sororitas welded army list, since 5th edition GK are a lot more independent from malleus, and even DW in 7th edition stands alongside xenos, not behind them. Watch masters can even openly oppose 'wrong' Inquisitors, I don't think chambers are a thing now besides sort of common goal with overarching inquisitorial structure...

 

 

 

 

Here is a blurb fromt he 7th Ed codex about the Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch being different organizations that sometimes even fight.

 

 

[Iron Lord]

The fact that the head of the Ordo Xenos has occasionally been a Deathwatch Marine (and the head of a Watch Fortress has occasionally been an Inquisitor), does show how closely allied they are though.

 

 

And infighting within the Inquisition is almost the rule rather than the exception - so why not the occasional clash between Inquisitor and Kill-Team?

 

 

I see "Chamber Militant" as an informal term rather than a formal one - even in 3e-era material. But it gets the general idea across - that if an Ordo Inquisitor needs something better than stormtroopers, they go to one of those 3 groups to ask for them - Grey Knights, Sisters, and Deathwatch, depending on the nature of the threat.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Iron Lord

[Centurio]

I have a Thunderhawk I'm wanting to paint up as Deathwatch, so I'm eagerly awaiting clarificarion, because I need those keywords so it can transport Deathwatch!

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

The fact that the head of the Ordo Xenos has occasionally been a Deathwatch Marine (and the head of a Watch Fortress has occasionally been an Inquisitor), does show how closely allied they are though.

 

 

 

 

That was never in question. The point is that the Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch are two separate organizations.