Post-release roundtable: what worked? what didn't?

[submarinesoup]

Now that many of us have a few games of 8th under our belts, let's talk about what happened and what we learned. Posts are encouraged (but not required) to be in the following format:
 

The good:

•  What worked well in your list, or even exceeded your expectations?

The bad:

•  what did not work?

Takeaways:

•  What you learned - what changes will you make, if any? Will you scrap your list entirely, or perhaps slaughter a lamb at midnight for the dice gods?

Here are my thoughts after facing off against an IG tank company of 2 russes, 2 basilisks, pask, a wyvern, and some scions in a 75 power level game. Bear in mind that I never played 7th, so my outlook is untarnished by the past.

 

The good:

• Invuln saves. These so, so nice with the abundance of rend.
• DC with thunder hammers did work and  effortlessly obliterated Pask in one combat phase.
• Volume / rapid fire - this was not my success, but the IG player I was up against abused the maxim of "anything can wound anything" to shred about 30% of my army with a Wyvern and hotshot lasguns in one shooting phase. The las / plas from his tanks was just gravy.
• Lemartes. He is a beast in combat, and almost destroyed a basilisk by himself before being blown to pieces by three tanks. His corpse will never be recovered, but his memory will live on forever (or not, as that game made me want to drink and in this case I'll be drinking to forget).
• JPs in the movement phase. Being able to move 12" put a lot of pressure on a gunline with a game plan of "kill them before they get here pls." Our mobility is definitely one of our best weapons.

The bad: 

• My dice rolls. Does anyone have a lamb they won't miss?
• Primaris Marines. Good lord, I fielded the full box and each and every one gave an anemic performance (with the exception of hellblasters, which nevertheless did not do much before they got shot off the table by T3). The extra toughness of multiwound models was hardly a factor since wounds must be assigned to wounded models first. Bolt rifles were meh. Even the inceptors failed to do anything meaningful before getting unceremoniously slaughtered.
• Auru buffs + jump pack assault - My DC failed their initial charge (and the reroll) after slamming them and lemartes down from the sky T1 (which felt awesome, but left me in the awkward position of having to charge Lemartes and leave the DC behind unbuffed). I had failed to consider that characters would have to make and pass their charge rolls separately from the units they hang out with. It was not ideal.
• Dread with TLC - it was almost comical to watch my dread pop off two relatively meaningless shots with his lascannon before being obliterated in one turn by deep striking scions. Truly felt like lighting points on fire.
• Assault marines - they were about as awe-inspiring as a 3rd grader in a 3 point contest in the sense that they can't really do tank hunting well. I truly wanted to d-punch the guy who decided meltas were off the table as I watched them put a few knicks in the tank they assaulted before getting vaporized. Mine had JPs, plasma pistols, and power axes.

Takeaways:

• 3++ is the new black! I'm looking at VVs with storm shields and thunder hammers as tank hunters, VVs with storm shields and power weapons as elite hunters.. the list goes on. I ate VVs with storm shields for breakfast this morning and I can already feel my outlook on life changing for the better.
• DC seems to have a lot of potential, but I never played with them in 7th. I fielded 5 and want more. I think that extra attack on the charge gives us a bigger edge than most appreciate.
• Lemartes seems very efficient for the points. I felt he earned his way into my list just by distracting 3 tanks for a shooting phase. Becoming a crater = value.
• I think I want JPs coming out of transports rather than the sky. Getting to move then advance seems like a lot better way to make it to the fight phase than "I sure hope I roll a 9!"
• Goodbye Lascannons, hello Assault cannons. I'm going to try the volume fire game, as my rifleman dread felt like putting too many eggs in one basket (two baskets? He did get 2 shots before he died).
• Goodbye assault marines. I hardly knew ye (and regret buying ye)... These will be replaced by, you guessed it, VVs with storm shields for just a few points more. Would not recommend unless you strap JPs on them and plan to slam some cheap cannon fodder in front of a unit you actually care about, and even then I'm not sure those points aren't better spent elsewhere.

Edited June 18, 2017 by submarinesoup

[tychobi]

Thanks for the first hand info.  This kind of breakdown is very helpful to me making my own lists. 

 

Seems like banking on a charge out of deep strike (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) is very iffy.  Even with reroll and three units you are looking at leaving a unit behind most times.  This will be a very difficult strat to make work in the long run.  Too often your pricey assault weapons are gonna get blasted at short range when you fail the charge as well as giving out multiple rounds of overwatch.  

[Xenith]

 

Seems like banking on a charge out of deep strike (or whatever the kids are calling it these days) is very iffy.  

 

Yup, but this is nothing new, 9" or more is significantly harder to roll than the average 7. You have under a 30% chance of rolling, making it more likely to leave 2 behind.

 

Even in this scenario, models with storm shields win as they can weather return fire to an extent.

 

Terminators deepstriking close may also be a good option, to dilute your opponents target priority.

[Silverson]

just curious, when deep striking are you doing it first turn or are you combining it with a frontal assault (probably on turn two) as a pincer movement?. because i see a 9" charge from the rear at the same time as a frontal charge has a look going for it and gives a very good chance of multiple units making the charge, Then they can wrap around and tie up other units nearby for the units that didn't make the charge to get stuck into on you next turn and remain slightly safer due to not being able to be shot at by the units stuck in cc.

[Xenith]

I think many of use need to start looking at deepstrike differently. I think we are all guilty of seeing the DS rule, and seeing we are an assualt army, and trying to DS as close as possible for a T1 charge. I don't think this is smart, as:

 

1) You'll have to burn command points early on to get those charges

2) those assault units, even if there's 3 of them, will be alone and unsupported vs your opponent's entire army for a turn.

 

If you use DS to instead reliably show up in cover, somewhere that might have just been out of reach had they deployed normally, or deepstriking shooty units like 5 terms, asscannon, and prepare for the T2 charge, this may work better.

 

Naturally, dropping well armoured units like TH/SS Terms 9" away is ok, it will likely take a lot of firepower to remove them, which can help the rest of the army.

[durdle-durdle]

I agree with xenith. I've been trying lists for turn 1 charges, and it's just way way too unreliable. I think coming down into cover (for a 2+/6+++ on death co) and using jump packs to move in the next turn is probably smarter. Yeah you get shot at for a turn, but with your high save, it's unlikely to really cripple you. And if you're fighting a shorty army, we can beat them handily in combat, so even if a few die, we can still roll them. Choppy armies won't do much shooting damage, so with our mobility and deployment options, we can really dictate where the fight will happen.

[Poppaby]

Even with the reroll for Lemmy, from what I've experienced so far it is much safer and ultimately horrific for your enemy if you cram everyone in Land Raider Crusaders. The Crusader is the least points cost, best damage output and holds the most models. Im playing 2 of them full of THSS Termys with a HQ (mephy and a chaplain) in each. Wa\tching your opponent vainly try to kill the raiders before all those termys come out is fun

 

Ive had some success spending turn one of the Sang guard either DS in Cover or jumping to cover to give yourself a shorter distance to charge. Once they are in combat they are almost the best CC unit in the game with buffs etc.

 

Storm Shields are a must if you can take em. 3++ invul is this games must have

[Semirhagge]

I've really been contemplating Company vets with JPs Storm shields and Melta guns. a 5 man unit can jump in, pop a large wound model. Survive a charge or a being shot. Run away or advance and still shoot the meltas. It's also not very expensive and would be a major threat your opponent would have to remove.

[submarinesoup]

I've really been contemplating Company vets with JPs Storm shields and Melta guns. a 5 man unit can jump in, pop a large wound model. Survive a charge or a being shot. Run away or advance and still shoot the meltas. It's also not very expensive and would be a major threat your opponent would have to remove.

This unit is not being discussed enough, and I hadn't realized that this was actually possible until now. Why stop at meltas? Give them combi-meltas or combi-plas plus storm shield. If they get into trouble, you've got 3++ survivability, and it's criminally easy to break off and fire again thanks to the JPs.

 

Also, it looks like we're the only chapter that can take packs on company veterans. Feels like a major piece of the BA arsenal and an auto include to me.

[Semirhagge]

Combi- meltas would be good too! lotsa fire power. However i hesitate on the plasma unless you do not consider the ability to advance and shoot a big deal.

[Arkhanist]

One of the other nice things with JP company vets is that you can also take them in a min unit size of 2 (sgt gets combi, troops combi or special) - so you could take multiple small units with no other upgrades bar maybe storm shield (and drop them apart from each other) - make it that much harder for them all to be taken out after they drop. 

 

Taking them instead of VV and kitted out for melee, they also get 'bodyguard' to save accompanying JP characters from melee wounds and snipers for only 1 point more per.

 

Given they're BA only, they're quite possibly our best unique unit, and i definitely plan to model some up.

[Semirhagge]

I've got some of the breacher shields from shapeways coming in that will work really well as stormshields with the gun sticking out! 

see link for some cool bitz!

 

 

https://www.shapeways.com/search?q=blood+legion&type=

[Kaughnor]

Big win for me over the weekend was Rhino's. They absorb soo much fire power allowing you to set up turn two charges. Then they interupt the enemy with their own assault charges.

 

Death Company Dread with a 6 inch consolodate move was clutch after being deposited by storm raven on other side of board.

 

Seth Seth Seth! Loved him. He is now at the atrongest he has ever been. Great force multiplier.

 

On the more blah side was tac marines. Did little damage but they did tie up units for a couple of turns.

 

Baal Preds where best used assaulting other tanks rather than using their fire power. I think Razor Backs would be more efficient.

 

Company Ancient did not come into play at all. I think I would rather pay points for Sang Ancient to deep strike in turn two to help with wound rolls.

[Charlo]

So I've got the Forgeworld book and Lucius pods are literally just a 24 melta bomb transport for your walkers, no weapons or shrouding rules to be seen.

 

But this is fine, as you can now do the fun times trick of Lemartes and Death Company Dreads with Magna Grapples in pods.

 

7" re-rollable charge is quite achievable mmmmyes. Then you consolidate 6" and suddenly the flank is broken.

 

My Caestus Ram will also be getting in on the action with some solid firepower and sterling Transport capacity (Ten TDA).

[Riot Earp]

@charlo

Would love to drop some leviathan out of that lucius. I would equip him with grav flux bombard and melta lance or instead of the lance some cc fist. What do you think?

[Charlo]

@charlo

Would love to drop some leviathan out of that lucius. I would equip him with grav flux bombard and melta lance or instead of the lance some cc fist. What do you think?

 

Looking at the new weapon profiles, the Storm Cannon is VERY good now.

 

24" Heavy 10 S7 AP-2 2D ...Lots of Dakka!

 

The Melta Lance is a bit meh as you can't get into half range (9") on the drop, albeit still 2D3 shots with Melta power.

 

The Grav is only D3 shots but will do 5 damage against the big stuff.

 

Worst things are the Heavy Flamers can't be changed for anything, so will seldom be in range and the missile launcher on top (previously 3 Hunter Killers) is nowhere to be seen :(

Edited June 19, 2017 by Charlo

[Riot Earp]

You ad an d3 per five man an the grav flux so it is pretty good against big blobs also. Like the stormcannon tho.

[Helias_Tancred]

Combi- meltas would be good too! lotsa fire power. However i hesitate on the plasma unless you do not consider the ability to advance and shoot a big deal.

 

Thanks for the heads up! But a marine with a combi-plasma can move, and still shoot it right? Just can't advance too and shoot.

[Semirhagge]

 

 

Combi- meltas would be good too! lotsa fire power. However i hesitate on the plasma unless you do not consider the ability to advance and shoot a big deal.

Thanks for the heads up! But a marine with a combi-plasma can move, and still shoot it right? Just can't advance too and shoot.

That's correct!

[Thoridon]

Had my first game of 8th, so used a mix of units to see how they fared.

 

The Good

-Hammers are as great as I thought they'd be from the numbers, especially when within a hit reroll aura. I had a unit of DC with 1 Hammer, 1 Fist, and then wound soaking bodies. The Hammer getting that set 3D each wound is fantastic, particularly when you charge 3W models! My Captain with a Hammer was comfortably taking big chunks of wounds off T8, high W models.

-DC Dread also has a crazy damage output against high toughness/wound targets. Mine has the pair of talons and getting multiple wounds through to deal D6 each is just lethal. Being S12 they're extremely efficient at hunting multi-wound T6. I'll have to run the numbers against the pair of fists with the set 3D and hit rerolls.

 

 

The So-So

-Melta. I ran 1 of each version (Inferno Pistol, Meltagun and Multi-Melta). The DC model with the pistol hit the first (and only) time he used it, rolled for 3 damage and killed a 3 wound model instantly. Very nice. The Dread with meltagun fired once, missed once and the Dread with multi-melta fired twice, missed twice. I was good at rolling 1s (as usual...), so more of them should've hit, but that's the drawback of single-shot weapons - especially the heavy version needing a 4+. Still, when it did hit and wound the pistol was nice.

-The basic Dreadnought (M-M and Fist) was less effective than the DC Dread, having less damage output and missing with all Multi-Melta shots, but still proved to be a bit tougher than before. I'm used to Dreads being instantly-exploded or stripped off their few hull points, so having it show more durability was nice.

-Tacticals did as expected. Took some wounds off infantry with shots, held up a couple of turns in combat after being charged as they passed morale checks after losing only 1-2 in a turn. Got wiped off the board after losing another 4 and failing the morale check horribly. They did tie a tough model up for those turns before it was able to finish them.

-The extra wound on terminators was mixed. Great when taking some shots from single wound weapons, bypassed when failing a save against a multiple-D weapon. Still, an improvement from 7th depending on how you use them, and not automatically hitting last is a big plus for them.

 

The Bad

-I ran a Twin-Las, Las and Las Predator and it did pretty much nothing. The shots it fired at key tough targets all missed (good at rolling 1s and 2s again) and the only damage it did all game was the final turn when it got a successful hit against some mid-strength infantry. I did roll badly but again it highlights for me the inconsistency of single shot weapons.

-I put a Librarian in play and the only thing he managed to do with those powers is roll double 1s to pretty much kill himself. Of course when it came to roll for the D3 self inflicted mortal wounds he rolled higher, the git. He did 0 damage and failed all attempts at generating powers before dying. That's down to bad luck as much as anything, but still annoying to see costly models kill themselves.

-I tested a 'deep strike' and charge with a unit of Terminators and 2 characters. All charges failed. I'm certainly not going to rely on that, though in this case it wasn't so bad as there was nothing really around to take advantage and shoot them away after. With the slow move and unrealistic 9+ required to charge from teleporting I think a transport is needed to get this guys charging when you need them.

-My DC got shot off the table before they could move again after killing the enemy in combat (4 lost to shooting, the 5th to morale fail). They seem a bit more of a glass cannon now, and I'm going to have to see about getting them some extra protection next time.

-Running less units meant I lacked bodies and got overrun, with the enemy able to double up more. I expected that but it drove home that if you have a low model count with expensive weaponry, and those weapons miss a lot, you're up the creek without a paddle.

 

Short version: My DC and Captain with Hammers did most damage, along with the DC Dread. Normal Dread was ok and Tacticals were durable for a couple of turns until morale overran them. Quad-Lascannon Predator was a waste of points in this game and my Librarian only got himself killed.

 

I'll still use teleporting for tactical terminators when I want to exploit a gap for shooting but won't count on it for charging. If I want to get assault terminators in for a charge it'll be some kind of transport.

 

JP units I'm going to keep either using the 12" move to jump from cover to cover into charge position or possibly a transport to avoid them being shot by sudden reserves.

 

The other thing I took away from this game (vs Tyranid / Cult) is that so many things can 'deep strike' now. With a low model count, leaving gaps for reserves to land and shoot is going to hurt. In this case there weren't many shooty things but it's something to remember for future games. The backfield seems even less secure than before against some armies, so cheap units to provide a 9" 'matrix' could be well worth their points.

[Charlo]

Really eager to get a block of shooty terminators and a terminator captain with Deep strike, with the 4 shot storm bolters, more shots on assault cannons and re-rolls they should prove a really hardly block of infantry in a flank.

[Damon Nightman]

Does deep striking count as moving for the asscan?

[Charlo]

Yup

[Drunken Angel]

Played two games today.

One with my BA against a Dark Eldar list and another with my Eldar against Harlequins

 

What worked for my BA and stood out?  

A Stormraven with a DC dread, 5 Death Company and Lemartes.  

Lemartes is a must take for DC.  

Consolidation by the Dread from winning combat into another unit is awesome.

Be aware of the command points strategy of allowing the charged unit to strike first.  

Make sure you charge a unit that can take a punch in the face second. 

Charge the DC first then the Dread second.  I lost 2 DC to some Talos pain engine things hitting first.

Hammers rule close combat especially with re-rolls from Lemartes

Scouts with missile launchers are scary good and hard to shift

Razorbacks with assault cannons are also very good.

Marines left in the open die quickly mech is the safe delivery system for assault.

Because stuff dies after assault if left in the open fast, always have something handy to consolidate into

Falling back for vehicles is no big loss they mostly shoot anyway.

Fly is massive, BA are in a good place with so much that can Fly.

Falling back with Fly is no problem for a shooting unit.  Falling back is more a problem for an assault unit.

I can't wait to run some Stormshield melta/combi units with jump packs.  They will be deadly.

Invunerable saves are big, so much out there reduces armour saves down to 4's or 5's.  

It costs but 3++  storm shields are gold. 

[Xenith]

Really eager to get a block of shooty terminators and a terminator captain with Deep strike, with the 4 shot storm bolters, more shots on assault cannons and re-rolls they should prove a really hardly block of infantry in a flank.

 

Drop Dante or a TDA captain in close to them for those sweet sweet rerolls. 10 TDA dropping 12 away with 2x asscans or CML's rerolling all misses will be fun.