Review of IA Warmachines of the Adeptus Astartes

[Exark]

Fellow sons of Fenris, I got my hands on the EPUB yesterday and have been pouring over it over the last 24 hours and I figured I would begin to write a review for the Rout. I'm a tad exhausted from the events of the week so this first post will only be a cursory overview of some of the toys that stood out to me.

 

 

First, the Additional Rules, most of the Heresy era stuff, bar the flyers has the Relic keyword, by the rules in the book, you cannot have more relics of a battlefield role than you do non-relics. Unfortunately as per RAW in the book, this actually means that the Lords of War cannot be taken without taking another LoW first. Talk about rules-oversight. 

 

Also, there are no chapter list restrictions, so we get access to literally everything in the book bar the GK/Sisters/Inq stuff and the Roc Pattern Storm Eagle.

 

So for the Battle Armor Section, one thing to note is that, the three Sicaran variants (you heard me right!) and the Deimos predator, are Elites choices. Yes you heard that right, everything else is Heavy still (so the LRs and the Laser vindicators)

 

The Deimos predator can take an infernus cannon (I think), the C-Beam cannon, a Magna Melta (24" range now) and comes base with the plasma destroyer.

I think the plasma destroyer is the best option as it has the same statline as a predator autocannon, but AP -3 and D2, 12" for 3 points more. 

 

Will do more of a review of the individual options later, onto the sicarans first:

 

Sicaran Battletank,

S6, T7, 14W, and costs about the same as a land raider redeemer in 7th ed with the basic weapons.

 

Can take the usual sponsons, a storm bolter, or an HK,

nothing special really about it except that the Accelerator autocannon ignores the penalty for shooting at Fly'ing things, and its Assault 8 AP-1 (same range as 7th) and goes to AP-4 on 6's. So the sicaran (with 14" Move!) is going to be hyper manuverable.

 

Sicaran Venator

Same statline as the base Sicaran

Same options, comes iwth a Neutron pulse cannon (H3, 36", S12, AP-4 D6 damage), and it still has a shock-pulse lite, that forces a wounded model to shoot at -1 to hit. 

 

Its about as costly as a standard raider in 7th ed. However, if it moves, it ignores the -1 to hit penalty for shooting heavy weapons. 

 

Sicaran Punisher, the new member of the family.

Again, the same base statline as the other sicarans, comes with the same options and a Punisher rotary Cannon, which is a heavy 18 version of the heavy bolter. 

 

Also, if it stays still, it can reroll 1s to hit. Costs about the same as a Battletank, maybe slightly less

 

The Laser vindicator:

T8, 12W, yeah, plus 10" move. The Laser destroyer was replaced with a Laser volley gun with two profiles:

Volley fire (Heavy 2, S9, AP-3, 3 Damage) or Overcharged( Heavy 2, S10, AP-5, 6 damage), both 36" and the overcharged if you roll one or more ones to hit, it takes 3 mortal wounds.

 

Its about the same cost as 10 wolf guard in 7th. Also, Power Capacitor lets it fire the volley fire profile twice if it doesn't move.

 

 

Super Heavy Tanks:

The Spartan is a lord of war now, and with its basic equip costs two Land raiders in 7th. Aside from that, its T8, 20 W, 2+ save.

 

The rest of our tanks, the Typhon, Cerberus, Fellblade and Falchion are all T9 with 2+ saves and come with POTMS. Right now I just want to focus on the Falchion as its the one I have looked at the most in the last 24 hours.

 

In a word, it is a one tank army more or less,

It comes with its Twin volcano cannon, a twin heavy bolter and two quad lascannons that can be swapped for laser destroyers. 

 

She's S9, T9, 26 W with a 10" move.

 

Her maingun, is 120" range at 2d6 shots, 2d6 damage, AP-5, S16, rerolling failed to wound rolls agains Titanic units.

 

The downside is that this thing, like all our superheavies (rightfully so) is REALLY expensive, she costs 3 Land raiders, plus four lonewolves from 7th. What you get roughly in 8th ed terms, is two tri-las predators and a shadowsword in terms of sheer points. What this is missing, is that its BS3+, harder to kill, and has an extra volcano cannon. This thing will quite literally erase a unit per turn. In theory at least.

 

Dreadnoughts:

 

The Leviathan can take all its heresy arm weapons (no volkite or phosphex sadly). 

 

Again, will review this in more detail but its been a long week.

 

Flyers:

Only the Javelin is a relic, everything else isn't. The Fire Raptor can't take autocannons anymore.

 

Battlefield Support:

Hyperios Whirlwinds are actually useable now, at heavy 2d3 shots

 

We do not get Rapier quad mortars. The only rapier options are the Laser destroyer and the Quad HBs. 

 

The two units that really stuck out though:

 

The Scorpius:

 

So its S6, T7, 11 W, 3+ Sv. 12" M

 

The Multilauncher is S6, AP -2, D2, Heavy 3d3 48", it can shoot at things out of visual range. And if the Scorpius stays still, it shoots twice. Its about as much as an 8th ed trilas predator.

 

However the real gem I feel is below:

 

The Damocles Command Rhino, who'd have thought right?

 

This thing is the price of a 10 man Bloodclaw pack in 7th. It only gets a SB and an orbital strike attack (no points for this). 

 

What makes it a real gem though is that it has 1 Trans capacity (anti climactic I know but read below).....and if you put your Warlord in it,

you can roll 2d6 at the end of each of your turns and compare it to the Warlord's leadership, if it is less than the LD value of your warlord, you gain a CP. 

 

 

Its also an HQ choice, so you can use it for a compulsory slot. Soo, picture this, take a barebones RP/WGBL, and this. In a Battalion detachment you have just filled your two compulsory slots for under 200 points and your warlord will in theory generate a CP per turn. This might not be as useful as I think it is, but it certainly seems to have potential.

 

Anyway fellow Fenryka, more to come

[NightHowler]

Thanks! For those of us who still don't have access to this, this is a nice preview.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

As I have 2 fellblades and a mastodon. I await your further analysis with bated breath. But thanks for the initial knowledge drop.

[Hellrender]

Thanks! Looking forward to hear about the rest, especially any and all dreadnought variants ;)

[Joasht]

Other than the Damocles, so what would you say might be potentially hot choices from the book?

[shandwen]

Spartans, fellblades, and mastodon are basically unplayable now. In each detachment you are required to have as many or more choices of the same battlefield role than you have relics, so the only way to take a relic Low is the 3 Low formation, which requires you to take 2 non-relic Lords of war... so two thunder hawks or storm birds to unlock a tank.

Wonderful.

[DanPesci]

Spartans, fellblades, and mastodon are basically unplayable now. In each detachment you are required to have as many or more choices of the same battlefield role than you have relics, so the only way to take a relic Low is the 3 Low formation, which requires you to take 2 non-relic Lords of war... so two thunder hawks or storm birds to unlock a tank.

Wonderful.

 

Yeah that seems like a pretty big oversight, i mean, the relic system kind of makes sense for the regular tanks etc (although would have still preferred it to be a techmarine/ironpriest tax instead), but having to take a LoW before you can take a relic LoW is silly tax in both points and real world money.

 

However, the only relic tanks i actually own are a deimos plasma pred, and  deimos vindicator...both of which still seem to be ok (except that ill have to take regular preds alongside to run them now, which will take up a big chunk).

 

Does anyone know if they still have the legacies of glory available in any form?

[Silentz]

Is it an oversight?  

 

I think they have done it deliberately to stop people playing stupidly powerful vehicles in 'regular' games of 2000 points. 

 

Also all this stuff about stormbirds...  You can take knights or baneblade variants as LOW slot and just make the detachment keyword "Imperium" with no impact. 

 

2 Knights and a Spartan with a few dudes to go in the Spartan could be a fun list. 

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Spartans, fellblades, and mastodon are basically unplayable now. In each detachment you are required to have as many or more choices of the same battlefield role than you have relics, so the only way to take a relic Low is the 3 Low formation, which requires you to take 2 non-relic Lords of war... so two thunder hawks or storm birds to unlock a tank.

Wonderful.

Yeah I will likely house rule that one out. Make it so the Low relics can be taken single. That was a serious oversight but I only bring them to apocalypse games and the occasional fun match, so mine will see play for sure.

[grouj]

Is it an oversight?

 

I think they have done it deliberately to stop people playing stupidly powerful vehicles in 'regular' games of 2000 points.

 

Also all this stuff about stormbirds... You can take knights or baneblade variants as LOW slot and just make the detachment keyword "Imperium" with no impact.

 

2 Knights and a Spartan with a few dudes to go in the Spartan could be a fun list.

Hellforged doesn't follow that same logic though. I wish they made it like it used to be with relics: you can only have a single one of that in your army. Seems dumb that I have to take another low to play my spartan :/. Can you imagine that do conversation? "Iron Priest, we require the power of our most ancient artifact, the fell blade."

"Oh, no can do Logan, you gotta take at least two more super heavies before you can take that puppy out. Strength in numbers makes it all better"

"But we just need it to blow a whole in the wall, if we take the other two then we won't be able to fit our troops onto the transports to battle"

"Look I'm backlogged here Logan. Either take the other two Lords of War or your gonna have to just crash some land raiders into the wall and hope for the best."

Edited June 19, 2017 by grouj

[Silentz]

"Oh, no can do Logan, you gotta take at least two more super heavies before you can take that puppy out. Strength in numbers makes it all better"

"But we just need it to blow a whole in the wall, if we take the other two then we won't be able to fit our troops onto the transports to battle"

"Look I'm backlogged here Logan. Either take the other two Lords of War or your gonna have to just crash some land raiders into the wall and hope for the best."

 

I mean... yes. I think that's the exact conversation.  No, brother Logan - you will not be risking this millennia old, ancient and revered machine spirit in your fool's errand. Either take sufficient backup to ensure it's not guaranteed to be totally focus fired on turn one, or it shalt stay in thine holy garage of the Omnissiah. 

[DanPesci]

Is it an oversight?  

 

I think they have done it deliberately to stop people playing stupidly powerful vehicles in 'regular' games of 2000 points. 

 

 

 

Oh i get thats probably the reason, personally i dont like seeing superheavies in smaller games, and agree that this will help that, but i think it could have been handled better simply by saying 'you need to be over 2000pts before you can add a relic LoW'   (which is probably what me and my usual opponents will houserule it to anyway).

 

Noone wants to see a mastadon/fellblade etc in a 1000 point game (noone sane anyway!), but at the same time, I don't feel I should have to drop another 100 quid or so on models i dont want after buying a £300 model, just to be able to use it.

[Exark]

So, the Battle Armour section  thoughts:

 

Exark's Review Part 1: Our Battletanks

 

 

The Relic Predator

 

3 Points more than a normal predator, comes with 1 more wound than a normal predator.

 

Elites Choice.

 

Basic Wargear: Plasma Destroyer

 

The Plasma Destroyer is 3 points more than a Predator autocannon, has the same firing profile of heavy 2d3, but is AP -3 and 2 damage at S7. No supercharge profile but this thing is better in every way than the predator autocannon. Good for clearing tanks and TEQ/MCs in my mind, not a bad weapon.

 

Other options:

Can take Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, or Lascannon Sponsons and the usual SM vehicle upgrades

 

Here's where things get interesting, the main gun options, so it can take the usual autocannon and twin lascannon, but why ever right?

 

The uniques though are:

 

C-Beam Cannon, its heavy one, at S6, AP3, d3 damage. The interesting part is that for each 24” between the firer and its target, you add 2 strength and d3 damage. At maximum range, it will become 4d3 damage at S12. Also if it removes a model the unit containing said model suffers 2d6 S6 AP0 1 damage hits.

This is also the cheapest cannon option for the relic predator at the price of two 7^th ed plasmaguns

 

Infernus Cannon, at assault 2d6, its a heavy flamer that does 2 damage. And its 50% more expensive than the Conversion beamer. Could be lethal to low save high wound models, but you have to get within 8”, it might be assault 2d6, but you'll get more damage out of a Plasma destroyer. Why couldn't FW have just slapped a hellhound's inferno cannon on this thing.

 

Magna-melta: 24” Range, S10, AP-4 at d6 damage with the melta rule. And heavy d3. Great in theory right? Here's the problem, it costs about as much as the twin lascannon turret and a single lascannon sponson. Great, but too many points.

 

Thoughts: Well, the Relic predator is interesting to say the least, I really like the plasma destroyer, and the C-Beam has to be next on the list, considering it has some potential I'd think at dealing with hordes. Outside of that it really shines in larger games where you can get the most out of its 72” range. The Internus is kind of meh for its points and the Magnamelta I feel is a missed opportunity. Ultimately, it seems solid, and gives you a predator outside of the heavy slot. The problem is that every other battletank except the raider variants and the Laser vindicator are elites too. So it comes down to, this or a Sicaran.

 

 

Deimos Laser Vindicator

Following in the pattern of the Relic predator, the Deimos vindicator has one more wound than the regular vindicator.

 

It comes with a Laser volley cannon that shoots in two profiles, S9 AP-3, 3 Damage heavy 2 and overcharged at S10 AP-5, 6 damage, heavy 2, both out to 36”

 

It also has a stormbolter at base.

 

For overcharged, if you roll one or more ones, you take 3 mortal wounds.

 

It is a heavy slot. And it still has power capacitors, which let it fire the volley profile on the cannon twice if it didn't move.

 

Kitted out it will be slightly less than a full predator annihilator in the new rules.

 

Thoughts: Its harder to kill than a predator annihilator and has more reliable single target damage output. Aside from that, not much has changed, its still the same old laser destroyer from 7^th. That said, it shines best in dealing with non-titanic vehicles and MCs. Look at this thing to put down carnifexes and other tanks, not superheavies. Though it can in theory reduces most of them to half health in a single turn. There is also the fact that It could be a TEQ killer as well if hard pressed.

 

Infernum Pattern Razorback:

A fancy name for a Razorback with a multimelta. Nothing to report. Well, except that I would like to note that this thing fits our fenrisian mentality perfectly. Nothing says get up in their face quite like an APC with a multimelta attached carrying a squad of blood claws

 

The Relic Proteus

 

Heavy Support. So its a normal land raider stats wise, comes with two twin lascannons. Can take a twin HB, twin HF, an MM or a single HB. It can also take an explorator augury web or heavy armor upgrade. The latter of these has no rules as of yet. And neither has a points value. Both of these upgrades reduce it to 6 models capacity.

 

The Augury web basically creates a 12” THOU SHALT NOT DEEPSTRIKE bubble around the tank. Could be useful. But most of those abilities don't let you be within 9” anyway. So time will tell just how useful the extra 3” will be.

 

Its about as expensive as LRCs used to be.

 

Thoughts: The Augury web looks interesting, but at the points cost I don't see much point in bringing one over a normal land raider. Especially since the only difference is the augury web that reduces the trans capacity by 4.

 

The Helios

 

A normal raider, 2 points more than a 7^th ed normal raider. Heavy support.

It has the usual twin lascannons and a unique helios launcher, with 72” range shooting 2d6 shots at S7, AP-1, D1.

That points cost includes the cost of the helios launcher.

 

It should be about the same cost as a regular raider after all upgrades.

 

Thoughts: Its not a heavy APC like we're used to seeing with Raiders. But it combines the role of a WW and Tri-las predator into one neat package. And it costs only a bit more than both would. So, while it will have less wounds than the combination, it does take up only one Heavy slot. I think it has potential. I certainly want to convert one of these at any rate.

 

Land Raider Prometheus

So its a land raider, with two quad heavy bolters. Same transport cap and stat line. And its Heavy Support.

 

It comes with the battle auspex still which denies cover bonuses and a command relay.

The command relay reduces the CP cost of stratagems by 1 while your warlord is embarked.

This thing is about the same cost as a helios fully kitted out.

 

Thoughts: So, its having a bit of an identity crisis. Armament wise, the thing is GREAT for antihorde, I mean, who can complain at 24 Heavy bolter shots that ignore cover bonuses? Problem is that you're paying an arm and a leg for it. And there is the fact that it is still a land raider with 10 transport capacity. And its ability. The CP cost reduction is great, but I feel you don't get enough bang for your buck out of the platform. Unlike a damocles that is about a third the cost and only has one spot for a model inside (IE. Your warlord), and its ability that is pretty much the exact same thing. It needs a rework to be useful, otherwise, I figure this thing will be left sitting in the garage. Like my vindicators this edition.

 

 

The Land Raider Achilles

 

I remember when this thing caused so much anxiety in fifth edition when it came out because it was nigh unkillable.

 

Anyway, it has 3 more wounds than a normal raider, aside from that, the same stat line but with 6 transport cap. It carries two twin multi meltas and a quad launcher.

 

The quad launcher can either fire as a 24” heavy 4 S8 Ap-2 damage 3 profile, or with thunderfire shells at heavy 4d3 S5, damage 1, 60” range.

 

Note: I think the quad launcher could conceivably be what we could expect out of rapier quad mortars, if they'd actually given them to us.

 

Special rules wise, it comes with inviolate armor giving a 4+ invulnerable save and the usual raider stuff (explodes, POTMS, Smoke launchers).

 

A basic equipment this thing costs as much as a shadowsword in the new rules.

 

Thoughts: Well, its an Achilles, they're well known for being hard to kill and in the new edition it still looks it. So two words: FIRE. MAGNET. While its damage output is low outside of close range, I can see this falling into the same realm vindicators did in the previous editions, where they would draw a considerable amount of firepower just because people were deathly afraid of them. I think I'll try using one with a lone wolf inside to see what happens. Or a REALLY killy character. Its points heavy to be sure, but it could be a LOT of fun to play around with, especially fluffy for the Firehowlers.

 

Right one more thing I want to mention, because of how his ability is worded, if you take it for the Salamanders, Vulkan Hestan's ability does effect this thing. Just a thought.

 

The Sicaran Family:

Universal notes: All three share the same stat line, M14”, S6, T7, 14 W, 3+ Sv, LD8

All come with a Hull mounted HB

All three are elites choices.

All can take Storm bolters, heavy bolter or lascannon sponsons.

The Battle Tank:

Its bacckkkk, seriously. It costs about as much as a land raider in 7^th, occupies an elite slot, and comes with the glorious Herakles accelerator autocannon, that is Assault 8, 48” range, S7, AP-1, 2 damage. Also, it ignores firing penalties against things with the fly keyword and on 6's to wound, the AP of that wound goes to AP-3.

 

Thoughts: This has long been my favorite SM tank from the 30k era. Its so beautiful and is still just as effective as it was in 7^th. The highlight I want to point out most is its main gun is Assault. So its movement is essentially 14” + d6”, so if you really need it somewhere, it will MOVE.

 

The Venator:

So, it comes with gyro-stabilization systems, so basically, POTMS. And a neutron pulse cannon, that is heavy 3, 48” range (it got a Range boost!), S12, AP-4, d6 damage. Any vehicle that suffers damage from this gun shoots at -1 to hit until the end of its controlling player's next turn.

 

So its not as glorious as shock pulse used to be, but its still just as fun. This thing costs as much as a land raider in 7^th plus whatever your adding on.

 

Thoughts: Great tank hunter, or for debuffing anything your can't kill right away. I really like what I see and can see it as a great multi-role tank as well, putting heavy bolter sponsons on to perform the anti-infantry role since tanks can split fire now. Also has the 14” movement of the other sicarans so its all-round AMAZING. A bit points heavy, but worth it I think.

 

The Punisher:

So it comes with a version of fire discipline that lets it re-roll 1s with its main gun if it doesn't move. And that main gun is a heavy 18 heavy bolter.

 

Its in the same points range as the battle tank.

 

Thoughts: It's interesting, I'll give it that, but I feel the Battle tank and the Venator outshine it. Could be interesting.

 

 

Concluding Thoughts on the Battle Armor:

The real winner here is the Sicaran (who's not surprised), both the Battle Tank and Venator variants I think are the best units of this section. The Relic predator and Deimos vindicator aren't terrible, but I think they get outshone by both. Granted the laser vindicator is heavy so it won't be competing with them for slots, but still. Ultimately though, I think we've been given a variety of toys to play around with, and while strictly speaking, some are downright worse than others. They're all going to be fun when used. Especially the Achilles.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Exark

[Jackalwolf]

 

Is it an oversight?  

 

I think they have done it deliberately to stop people playing stupidly powerful vehicles in 'regular' games of 2000 points.

 

 

Oh i get thats probably the reason, personally i dont like seeing superheavies in smaller games, and agree that this will help that, but i think it could have been handled better simply by saying 'you need to be over 2000pts before you can add a relic LoW'   (which is probably what me and my usual opponents will houserule it to anyway).

 

Noone wants to see a mastadon/fellblade etc in a 1000 point game (noone sane anyway!), but at the same time, I don't feel I should have to drop another 100 quid or so on models i dont want after buying a £300 model, just to be able to use it.

Think it's clearly an oversight. No you cannot take the Spartan but you can take the Sokar pattern Stormbird since its not a relic (!!!). Also, the Thunderhawk can carry primaris and it's stated explicitly in its transport rules, the Mastodon can't and it's stated explicitly but the Stormbird says nothing either way. How does that make any sense since they're all superpowered LoW (historically at least) which are based around transporting troops is beyond me, but Inferno is also full of oversights.

 

They've had big problems in their writers team so mistakes are to be expected and understood. Just hope there's a faq soon enough.

 

Also if you read RAW the Mastodon can carry 40 wulfen which is nonsensical.

[Exark]

 

 

Is it an oversight?  

 

I think they have done it deliberately to stop people playing stupidly powerful vehicles in 'regular' games of 2000 points.

 

Oh i get thats probably the reason, personally i dont like seeing superheavies in smaller games, and agree that this will help that, but i think it could have been handled better simply by saying 'you need to be over 2000pts before you can add a relic LoW'   (which is probably what me and my usual opponents will houserule it to anyway).

 

Noone wants to see a mastadon/fellblade etc in a 1000 point game (noone sane anyway!), but at the same time, I don't feel I should have to drop another 100 quid or so on models i dont want after buying a £300 model, just to be able to use it.

Think it's clearly an oversight. No you cannot take the Spartan but you can take the Sokar pattern Stormbird since its not a relic (!!!). Also, the Thunderhawk can carry primaris and it's stated explicitly in its transport rules, the Mastodon can't and it's stated explicitly but the Stormbird says nothing either way. How does that make any sense since they're all superpowered LoW (historically at least) which are based around transporting troops is beyond me, but Inferno is also full of oversights.

 

They've had big problems in their writers team so mistakes are to be expected and understood. Just hope there's a faq soon enough.

 

Also if you read RAW the Mastodon can carry 40 wulfen which is nonsensical.

 

Also per RAW as I just noticed, that "no chapter restrictions" was incorrect when I first looked through the book, so my apologies, per RAW, we actually can't take ANYTHING in the book, nor can anyone who is not Vanilla marines, since every other chapter has the specific list of what we get and anything else can't have the keyword. So the oversight is even more glaring than first realized.

 

EDIT: Shot an email to FW seeing if I can get both issues clarified, it's not design team or FAQ level, but hopefully we can get some insight into this

Edited June 20, 2017 by Exark

[Karack Blackstone]

 

 

 

Is it an oversight?  

 

I think they have done it deliberately to stop people playing stupidly powerful vehicles in 'regular' games of 2000 points.

 

Oh i get thats probably the reason, personally i dont like seeing superheavies in smaller games, and agree that this will help that, but i think it could have been handled better simply by saying 'you need to be over 2000pts before you can add a relic LoW'   (which is probably what me and my usual opponents will houserule it to anyway).

 

Noone wants to see a mastadon/fellblade etc in a 1000 point game (noone sane anyway!), but at the same time, I don't feel I should have to drop another 100 quid or so on models i dont want after buying a £300 model, just to be able to use it.

Think it's clearly an oversight. No you cannot take the Spartan but you can take the Sokar pattern Stormbird since its not a relic (!!!). Also, the Thunderhawk can carry primaris and it's stated explicitly in its transport rules, the Mastodon can't and it's stated explicitly but the Stormbird says nothing either way. How does that make any sense since they're all superpowered LoW (historically at least) which are based around transporting troops is beyond me, but Inferno is also full of oversights.

 

They've had big problems in their writers team so mistakes are to be expected and understood. Just hope there's a faq soon enough.

 

Also if you read RAW the Mastodon can carry 40 wulfen which is nonsensical.

 

Also per RAW as I just noticed, that "no chapter restrictions" was incorrect when I first looked through the book, so my apologies, per RAW, we actually can't take ANYTHING in the book, nor can anyone who is not Vanilla marines, since every other chapter has the specific list of what we get and anything else can't have the keyword. So the oversight is even more glaring than first realized.

 

EDIT: Shot an email to FW seeing if I can get both issues clarified, it's not design team or FAQ level, but hopefully we can get some insight into this

 

 

Is there a clarification page towards the front, or is this the massive oversight that you think this is, currently?

[Exark]

 

 

 

 

Is it an oversight?  

 

I think they have done it deliberately to stop people playing stupidly powerful vehicles in 'regular' games of 2000 points.

 

Oh i get thats probably the reason, personally i dont like seeing superheavies in smaller games, and agree that this will help that, but i think it could have been handled better simply by saying 'you need to be over 2000pts before you can add a relic LoW'   (which is probably what me and my usual opponents will houserule it to anyway).

 

Noone wants to see a mastadon/fellblade etc in a 1000 point game (noone sane anyway!), but at the same time, I don't feel I should have to drop another 100 quid or so on models i dont want after buying a £300 model, just to be able to use it.

Think it's clearly an oversight. No you cannot take the Spartan but you can take the Sokar pattern Stormbird since its not a relic (!!!). Also, the Thunderhawk can carry primaris and it's stated explicitly in its transport rules, the Mastodon can't and it's stated explicitly but the Stormbird says nothing either way. How does that make any sense since they're all superpowered LoW (historically at least) which are based around transporting troops is beyond me, but Inferno is also full of oversights.

 

They've had big problems in their writers team so mistakes are to be expected and understood. Just hope there's a faq soon enough.

 

Also if you read RAW the Mastodon can carry 40 wulfen which is nonsensical.

 

Also per RAW as I just noticed, that "no chapter restrictions" was incorrect when I first looked through the book, so my apologies, per RAW, we actually can't take ANYTHING in the book, nor can anyone who is not Vanilla marines, since every other chapter has the specific list of what we get and anything else can't have the keyword. So the oversight is even more glaring than first realized.

 

EDIT: Shot an email to FW seeing if I can get both issues clarified, it's not design team or FAQ level, but hopefully we can get some insight into this

 

 

Is there a clarification page towards the front, or is this the massive oversight that you think this is, currently?

 

There isn't, there's the explanation of the Relic rule which prohibits us from using relics without having a non-relic of the same role, yet Chaos has access to the exact same LoW's we do and has no such restriction, so its likely a design oversight I'd think. In the case of the chapter keyword issue, there isn't a list saying who can take what. I'm going off of our section in Index Imperium 1 which says anything outside the list provided in their cannot have the Space Wolves Keyword. Note that this effects DA and BA as well.  I *might* be a bit overly paranoid

[Jackalwolf]

 

 

 

Is there a clarification page towards the front, or is this the massive oversight that you think this is, currently?

 

 

Massive oversight since the very obvious RAI is that the restriction "the following space marine datasheets can be used by Space Wolves and any datasheet not here cannot be used" is meant to comprehend the datasheets from Index: Imperium 1 but they didn't explicitly say that in the restriction on our SW, BA, DA or any other non vanilla sections and the IA: Index Adeptus Astartes lacks any note in the introduction overruling it so yes, per RAW we can take absolutely nothing which, again, is nonsensical.

 

It's getting tiresome really all this cock ups and mistakes if I must be honest. 1 year ago everyone loved FW and everyone hated GW. It really feels like it's reverting to the polar opposite.

[Hellrender]

Just got my own book. And 1 thing i noticed.

 

Why in the name of cute puppies, is the points list for wargear not in alphabetical order!! It gives me a headache.

 

That said, i'm happy i can field my Mortis Dread with 2x Twin lascannons for a decent point cost :)

 

And i agree with the OP. The Punisher looks decent. Fully upgraded it has 27 Heavy Bolter shots.. But it's so easy to get that elsewhere..

[PeteySödes]

Am i safe to assume no sagas for our Relic Contemptors?

[Hellrender]

Well i find this book horrendously written. Just on my first glances through i found several errors. I mean sure, the GW index has the thing with Wolf Lords not being able to take space wolf equipment or that Space Wolves aren't allowed to use FW units.. but the FW Index has a ton too. The Venator is equipped with a neutron laser cannon, but there is no such thing in the wargear list, only the Neutron Pulse Cannon. There is no option for other than vanilla dexes to take FW units. The whole LoW mess. No sagas (to answer your question :P).

 

But the worst, the points list not being alphabetical. It's not even sorted in a way i can easily discern (which could be on me, admittably). 

 

And not sure if it's a mistake, but it does feel odd. You can have a mortis contemptor dreadnought (not a relic), but if you want a normal contemptor dreadnought there is only the Relic Contemptor Dreadnought. I guess it's because the normal version is already in the GW index (with far fewer weapon options). But, why not just a normal contemptor dreadnought too, with all the weapon options?

 

Overall.. The book itself is of good quality. Nice matt cover, good layout inside with categories, so its relatively easy to find things. The contents are decent too. I calculated a few weapon options and they seem competetive with the GW alternatives. But the errors listed above just dissapoint me. I do not understand how such things can get past editing. 

All in all, if you want any of the units inside, i would definetly pick it up. If you don't its absolutely not worth it.

[PeteySödes]

Interesting, so given the way transports work now though (non-dedicated, 1 per other choice etc.) that still doesn't preclude me from putting my SW venerable dread in a vanilla Dread Pod given "Faction: Imperium" right?

[Exark]

Interesting, so given the way transports work now though (non-dedicated, 1 per other choice etc.) that still doesn't preclude me from putting my SW venerable dread in a vanilla Dread Pod given "Faction: Imperium" right?

 

Unfortunately no, the rules for the Lucius specifically state it can carry one <chapter> DREADNOUGHT, I hope to have a review of the heavy tanks up soon. 

 

Also an update to the Battle Tank section posted above, I've finally had opportunity to test my Sicaran and Laser Vindicator and the Sicaran is still its old self, just as terrifying as normal. Also on the Laser vindicator, so from what I gathered from talking to people in store, firing arcs do not exist anymore, ergo, you can draw LOS from any point on hte model (however pivoting counts as moving now), so if this being true, the Vindicator got a nice 360 degree fire arc buff and you can just park it anywhere you want and power capacitor for days. Overall, really liked it, though Lascannons are something to worry about.

[Garreck]

I'm not sure <chapter> excludes spacewolves. In fact I'm pretty sure it doesn't. From page 10 in Index: Imperium 1,

"If an Adeptus Astartes datasheet does not specify which Chapter it is drawn from, it will have the <chapter> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which chapter that unit is from. You then simply replace the <chapter> keyword in every instance on that unit's data sheet with the name of your chosen Chapter."

We have the Adeptus Astartes keyword. Surely this applies to us.

 

​​I'm a dork.  Our subset of rules specifies which units we can replace <chapter> with "Space Wolves" and I take it since this list does not include the Forgeworld units, we can't do it for the Forgeworld units.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Garreck

[Jackalwolf]

I'm not sure <chapter> excludes spacewolves. In fact I'm pretty sure it doesn't. From page 10 in Index: Imperium 1,

"If an Adeptus Astartes datasheet does not specify which Chapter it is drawn from, it will have the <chapter> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which chapter that unit is from. You then simply replace the <chapter> keyword in every instance on that unit's data sheet with the name of your chosen Chapter."

We have the Adeptus Astartes keyword. Surely this applies to us.

 

​​I'm a dork.  Our subset of rules specifies which units we can replace <chapter> with "Space Wolves" and I take it since this list does not include the Forgeworld units, we can't do it for the Forgeworld units.

RAW you're right. Hope our codex release solves that since its just stupid. Also how can the Mastodon cost more points than a Thunderhawk with Turbo Laser Destructor?