Charging from Deepstrike and other 8ed thoughts.

[Paikis]

Alternative title: How to give your opponent an extra round of shooting several times and then get shot to pieces having not moved at all.

 

So I've played 4 games of 8ed now, and here are my takeaways.

 

1. Don't charge after deepstrike unless you really need something dead right now and are willing to risk losing a couple of guys for nothing. Over the course of my 4 games, I deepstriked a total of 12 units (3 per game) and managed to get exactly 2 successful charges. Maybe I'm rolling bad, maybe there'll be something on the way to fix this with our codex, either way, I'll be deepstriking into cover and charging next turn or just running up the board from now on.

 

2. Lascannons are very hit and miss. They can delete large models like you wouldn't believe, but they can also miss and do only 1 wound. I think the Assault Cannon is a better bet on anything that can take it instead of Lascannons. Twin Ass-cans on Razorbacks are looking better and better every time I unload a quad-las predator into something big, miss three times and do 2 damage with the 4th shot. (Having said that, the one time I did roll well I wiped 11 wounds off a Landraider).

 

3. Assault marines are too expensive for not enough punch. If they counted as troops i might consider running some, but as it stands, Vanvets and DC are just so much better for such a small increase in points. They aren't worth taking.

 

4. Sanguinary Guard are really good. Mine performed very well in all 3 games I took them. 4 Guard with Ancient and Dante are going to do a lot of damage to anything you attack with them.

 

5. Don't overheat Mephiston's pistol. Ever. You will delete him with his own pistol. That said, he is every bit the beast in CC that we all thoguht he would be.

 

So far the main thing I'm having issues with is horde armies. Specifically Tyranids. You bring all these lovely flamers to take care of the hordes and then they lob up at 9 inches and just charge you anyways. Overwatch with flamers? Can't. They're out of range. We'll just ignore the fact that in order to stab ytou with their pointy bits they have to move well within range of your flamers. Oh well. Chainswords for everyone!

[Silverson]

wow this is exactly what I was planning on doing with my games today (apart from bringing the Sanguinor instead of Dante).

 

1- For deep striking did you use two squads of death company and Lemartes? with the re-roll that's what i'm planning on trying today and seeing how it goes.  ill let you know if i fair any better.

 

2- I actually dropped my las pred for a mass assault army, maybe ill get to try it in my second game.

 

3- i know they are expensive but how did you use them? i'm planning on running them up the field today in 2 squads of 10 as massive screaning units for my sg,and characters etx..

 

4- really glad to hear that sg worked for you as well, in my last game they fought well and got slaughtered in a circle of death against wulfen and Logan on stormrider.

 

5- I'm sure ill try this out on that one occasion I really need 2 wounds to kill something and kill Mephiston even after the command point re-roll. 

[Xenith]

Some comments on your thoughts- the first one is C&P'd from another 8th digestion thread. 

 

 

Alternative title: How to give your opponent an extra round of shooting several times and then get shot to pieces having not moved at all.

 

So I've played 4 games of 8ed now, and here are my takeaways.

 

1. Don't charge after deepstrike unless you really need something dead right now and are willing to risk losing a couple of guys for nothing. Over the course of my 4 games, I deepstriked a total of 12 units (3 per game) and managed to get exactly 2 successful charges. Maybe I'm rolling bad, maybe there'll be something on the way to fix this with our codex, either way, I'll be deepstriking into cover and charging next turn or just running up the board from now on.

 

I think many of use need to start looking at deepstrike differently. I think we are all guilty of seeing the DS rule, and seeing we are an assualt army, and trying to DS as close as possible for a T1 charge. I don't think this is smart, as:

 

1) You'll have to burn command points early on to get those charges

2) those assault units, even if there's 3 of them, will be alone and unsupported vs your opponent's entire army for a turn.

 

If you use DS to instead reliably show up in cover, somewhere that might have just been out of reach had they deployed normally, or deepstriking shooty units like 5 terms, asscannon, and prepare for the T2 charge, this may work better.

 

Naturally, dropping well armoured units like TH/SS Terms 9" away is ok, it will likely take a lot of firepower to remove them, which can help the rest of the army.

 

2. Lascannons are very hit and miss. They can delete large models like you wouldn't believe, but they can also miss and do only 1 wound. I think the Assault Cannon is a better bet on anything that can take it instead of Lascannons. Twin Ass-cans on Razorbacks are looking better and better every time I unload a quad-las predator into something big, miss three times and do 2 damage with the 4th shot. (Having said that, the one time I did roll well I wiped 11 wounds off a Landraider).

Maybe add a captain or tycho to stand by the predator? Realistically, you get more lascannon hits with the pred in 8th than you did in 7th, an it can move further while doing so. If you like, the pred can keep pace with Dante, while he grants rerolls on the 4+BS, and shields him from fire. Triple Las predators are always the ones that you notice miss more often. Those 1 rolls for damage are exactly what command rerolls are for.

 

3. Assault marines are too expensive for not enough punch. If they counted as troops i might consider running some, but as it stands, Vanvets and DC are just so much better for such a small increase in points. They aren't worth taking.

You can take a detachment in which basic assault marines are the compulsory choices. Would this work?

 

4. Sanguinary Guard are really good. Mine performed very well in all 3 games I took them. 4 Guard with Ancient and Dante are going to do a lot of damage to anything you attack with them.

Great to hear! 4 seems a little small, I'd go with 6+

 

5. Don't overheat Mephiston's pistol. Ever. You will delete him with his own pistol. That said, he is every bit the beast in CC that we all thoguht he would be.

Haha, yes. Keep him near Dante, or use a CP to reroll

 

So far the main thing I'm having issues with is horde armies. Specifically Tyranids. You bring all these lovely flamers to take care of the hordes and then they lob up at 9 inches and just charge you anyways. Overwatch with flamers? Can't. They're out of range. We'll just ignore the fact that in order to stab ytou with their pointy bits they have to move well within range of your flamers. Oh well. Chainswords for everyone!

 

So you cannot make 9" charges, but the tyranid player can reliably? Maybe look at what they are doing to achieve this. Realistically, you (the nid player) want to be as close as possible. Losing 3 models to a flamer isnt as bad as failing the charge due to distance.

 

Horde armies - the only thing keeping them in check are the characters, or synapse. take those out, and even moderate damage to the normal units see them crumble due to morale. 

 

Example: A unit of 20 hormagaunts is running at you. You kill 10. If they are in synapse, they don't care. If they are outside synapse, they lose D6 + 10 - Ld additional models, minimum 6 more, leaving 4 left in the unit. 

 

Likewise, a unit of 30 is running at you. If you kill 17, and remove their synapse cover, then 13 remain. Assuming they roll minimum 1 on the D6: the morale check is 17+1 - 5 = 13, and the 13 remainign gaunts evaoprate.

 

The nid player faces a dilemma in mode  removal. Remove from the front, and they get further away from you, making the charge harder. Remove from the back, and they get further away from their synapse, meaning they risk losing the unit. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Xenith

[Quixus]

3. Assault marines are too expensive for not enough punch. If they counted as troops i might consider running some, but as it stands, Vanvets and DC are just so much better for such a small increase in points. They aren't worth taking.

What does being a troops choice change? AFAIK there isn't anything like ObSec in 8th and there are many detachments without mandatory troops.

[Are Verlo]

The only ting more troops will grant you is more command points through detatchments. But then again some armies actually have decent units as troops.

I am not saying tacticals and scouts cant do good, but boyz supported by other units are awesome. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Something I really like is the idea of Removed JPs from an ASM unit with 2x flamer + chainswords, then a plasma/infernus pistol and power sword on the sergeant, with an eviscerator splashed in. make it 9 strong and add a priest into a rhino, supported by 2 more rhinos with cargo such as DC and Tactical marines for a hybrid shooty/melee cover unit.

[Karhedron]

I think that BAs strengths are in our HQs and Elites so Vanguard and Supreme Command are our go-to Detachments I think. If you really want the CPs then a few small Troops squads are OK, especially Sniper Scouts.

[Charlo]

Something I really like is the idea of Removed JPs from an ASM unit with 2x flamer + chainswords, then a plasma/infernus pistol and power sword on the sergeant, with an eviscerator splashed in. make it 9 strong and add a priest into a rhino, supported by 2 more rhinos with cargo such as DC and Tactical marines for a hybrid shooty/melee cover unit.

 

Aye that isn't bad at all.

 

I'd almost be tempted to just go 6 man with 2 specials, evicerator and tooled up sarge with a priest in a Razorback with Twin-AC for a nice little mobile death squad. Might be a touch expensive though.

 

I think that BAs strengths are in our HQs and Elites so Vanguard and Supreme Command are our go-to Detachments I think. If you really want the CPs then a few small Troops squads are OK, especially Sniper Scouts.

 

Same as it's always been! We do have some tasty elites choices.