Elysians in 8th

[Lemondish]

So, one thing I didn't notice before...Vultures can deep strike for Elysians. So I guess you could hide it until after the enemy takes the first turn (which they will always do because guard). 

[Withershadow]

It would have to deep strike into hover mode, though, right?  Because otherwise it hasn't moved its minimum.

[Captain_Krash]

Which is where you want it to be anyway.

 

Krash

[Galron]

Why would you want it in hover mode Krash? It still moved with the deep strike. At least if you start on the board you still get hard to hit and cant be charged unless its jump troops. I am curious of your strategy.

[Lemondish]

It would have to deep strike into hover mode, though, right?  Because otherwise it hasn't moved its minimum.

 

Well, no. The reinforcements description in the BRB mentions that this happens at the end of the movement phase, and they are unable to move or advance further, suggesting instead that they used up the phase getting to the battlefield in the first place. For heavy weapon purposes it will have counted as having moved, of course. And since it's being treated as moving for ALL rule purposes, it still gains hard to hit. 

 

I suppose it would also allow you to do the same with a Vendetta or Valkyrie. Could you then use the grav chute disembark rule to drop the squad at the same spot? I can't see a reason why not - the rule says anywhere the model has moved, which admittedly is just one spot (where it arrived), and it ostensibly would use the same rule to disembark if it hovered in position. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Lemondish

[Captain_Krash]

@Galron Depending on the board. Lets say City fight terrain. It's possible to deploy the unit out of line of sight/in cover or at least in your opponents back lines within 9 inches. Hide for a turn then boom grav shoot deploy and take out your designated target.

 

Took out a landraider in 2 turn with 2 special weapons squads and a Plasma pistol wielding Commissar. Not saying this would work each and every game. But even with out using terrain. Dropping two valks in the opponents back field forcing him to either ignore or attempt to deal with them while your moving your infantry lines up/firing upon him/flanking with tanks/venators etc is critical to winning and will work more games than it doesn't.

 

I've learned so far in this edition that we seriously put so much firepower on the enemy that he can barely risk leaving cover.

 

Just my strategy at least, may not work for everybody. I tend to take big risk while playing, but remember fortune favors the bold especially as an Elysian player.

 

Krash

[Galron]

Just played in a game vs nids/genestealer cult. My ground forces got their collective butts kicked by a slew of 1st turn charges and consecutive fall backs, followed by charges. Actually the only time my LRs got a chance to fire was overwatch for 3 turns. Meanwhile I learned dropping weapon teams in odd locations is awesome. My snipers dropped first turn on a tower behind my opponents back line and proceeded to shoot monsters all game. My vultures and Valk did really well as well dropping wounds on big guys the whole game despite getting degraded from damage and getting hit with horror now and then. Scions dropped in almost on my objective and hosed the 3 big guys guarding it. So essentially we swapped deployment zones and called it a draw.

 

Theres a lot to be said for dropping heavy weapon teams. In the future I plan on mass dropping using a small force and the aircraft as bait to get the opponent to come to me and then just surround him with shooty drop guys.

[Withershadow]

 

It would have to deep strike into hover mode, though, right?  Because otherwise it hasn't moved its minimum.

 

 

Well, no. The reinforcements description in the BRB mentions that this happens at the end of the movement phase, and they are unable to move or advance further, suggesting instead that they used up the phase getting to the battlefield in the first place. For heavy weapon purposes it will have counted as having moved, of course. And since it's being treated as moving for ALL rule purposes, it still gains hard to hit. 

 

I suppose it would also allow you to do the same with a Vendetta or Valkyrie. Could you then use the grav chute disembark rule to drop the squad at the same spot? I can't see a reason why not - the rule says anywhere the model has moved, which admittedly is just one spot (where it arrived), and it ostensibly would use the same rule to disembark if it hovered in position.

If a flyer vehicle is not able to move its minimum distance, it dies. A deep striking flyer has not moved 20", it has simply moved.

[DietOfLiquor]

I'm looking forward to Elysians actually. Massed drop troops to cover objectives? Yes please. Does anyone know how long the Tauros Assault Vehicle has been off the website? Trying to guage out army purchases. Hahah.

[Mitchverr]

I think the 4 wheeler went last chance to buy didnt it?

[Dr_Derp]

Got this response about the Tauros

 

Thank you for contacting us about Tauros Assault Vehicle. As you've seen, we have recently removed several product from the Forge World web store that have been out of stock for some time. All of these products will need substantial work for us to be able to produce them again.

 

We hope to have many of these products back on sale in the future. Unfortunately we don't yet have a timescale for this work.

[Lemondish]

 

 

It would have to deep strike into hover mode, though, right? Because otherwise it hasn't moved its minimum.

 

Well, no. The reinforcements description in the BRB mentions that this happens at the end of the movement phase, and they are unable to move or advance further, suggesting instead that they used up the phase getting to the battlefield in the first place. For heavy weapon purposes it will have counted as having moved, of course. And since it's being treated as moving for ALL rule purposes, it still gains hard to hit.

 

I suppose it would also allow you to do the same with a Vendetta or Valkyrie. Could you then use the grav chute disembark rule to drop the squad at the same spot? I can't see a reason why not - the rule says anywhere the model has moved, which admittedly is just one spot (where it arrived), and it ostensibly would use the same rule to disembark if it hovered in position.

If a flyer vehicle is not able to move its minimum distance, it dies. A deep striking flyer has not moved 20", it has simply moved.

Are you addressing deep striking flyers, or using grav chute insertion after having done so?

[Withershadow]

Deep striking flyers.

[Lemondish]

Deep striking flyers.

Since reinforcements happen at the end of the movement phase, I don't see any issue.

[Shamansky]

The BRB p.177 'REINFORCEMENTS'

'...Units that
arrive as reinforcements
count as having moved
in their Movement phase
for all rules purposes...'

 

Any more questions?

[Withershadow]

You are both missing the point.

 

The movement phase rules for Minimum Move state that if a model cannot make its minimum move, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield.

 

The Reinforcements rules make no allowances for Minimum Move models.  Simply having moved does not == "has moved at least 20"" (or whatever the minimum speed is).  RAW, any minimum speed flyers deployed in reserves die automatically upon arrival unless they are arriving in Hover mode. 

[Mitchverr]

It depends how you look at it, no, they didnt move their min on the table, however, in order to even show up, they must have been moving prior, so technically speaking they could be counted as moving their min distance just to show up on the table.

 

It would be something that GW has to have a say on.

[Shamansky]

I remember the same book-worming in previos edition considering elysian flyers. 

[Lemondish]

You are both missing the point.

 

The movement phase rules for Minimum Move state that if a model cannot make its minimum move, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield.

 

The Reinforcements rules make no allowances for Minimum Move models. Simply having moved does not == "has moved at least 20"" (or whatever the minimum speed is). RAW, any minimum speed flyers deployed in reserves die automatically upon arrival unless they are arriving in Hover mode.

And does that happen before, in the middle, or at the end of the movement phase?

 

Do you wait until the end of the phase to remove any models that were killed due to moving movement? That doesn't seem like it.

 

RaW, it isn't destroyed, because movement has ended and any rules associated with that phase are no longer relevant. We're in the psychic phase immediately after the unit arrives.

 

The spirit of the reinforcements rule is also pretty clear. RaI, you treat the model as having moved for ALL rules purposes, occurring at the end of the phase. Unless the rules stipulate that the phase restarts once they arrive, I don't see how they would be affected by the minimum move.

 

I think it's pretty clear, and I don't see your perspective. But I'd also rather the conversation move along elsewhere since it seems we're at an impasse.

[Shamansky]

We can always measure the distance model moved from player's army transport bag to the point on the table as a trade-off

[Feral_80]

Speaking of the Tauros...the assault vehicle seems quite useless, but the Venator with 2 lascannons has potential. Sadly, it seems overpriced, and that's a real pity because the model and the concept are super cool.

 

With the loss of armor values, having 2 highly mobile lascannon shots is not that of a big deal anymore. Also, its special 5++ save is quite silly, since it's supposed to reflect the difficulty of hitting the vehicle, but has no effect on weapons with an AP worse of -2. It would be better reflected as a general -1 to hit, I believe.

 

Do you believe FW might be interested in receiving such feedback? Have someone already sent them feedback about Elysians or the FW book in general?

 

Best,

Edited July 10, 2017 by Feral_80

[Lemondish]

Speaking of the Tauros...the assault vehicle seems quite useless, but the Venator with 2 lascannons has potential. Sadly, it seems overpriced, and that's a real pity because the model and the concept are super cool.

 

With the loss of armor values, having 2 highly mobile lascannon shots is not that of a big deal anymore. Also, its special 5++ save is quite silly, since it's supposed to reflect the difficulty of hitting the vehicle, but has no effect on weapons with an AP worse of -2. It would be better reflected as a general -1 to hit, I believe.

 

Do you believe FW might be interested in receiving such feedback? Have someone already sent them feedback about Elysians or the FW book in general?

 

Best,

 

Perhaps it seems overpriced because it's extremely mobile thanks to deep strike? Good point on the invuln save. 

 

One criticism I have is that it seems like a lot of things have invuln saves when a different effect would be more thematically appropriate. I assume many folks have already provided feedback, though I suppose we'll see what type of feedback they received when the FAQ drops shortly. 

[Mitchverr]

So I am curious with that things 10 inch min move = 5++, theoretically, cant you just go 5 forward and 5 back or "make a circle" where you end up where you started or close to it? (a bit like in the old days when horse archers would ride around in a cirlce to fire at their enemy in order to keep mobile as a target).

[Galron]

In trying to come up with a way to avoid or minimize turn 1 charges or at least make them less appealing for most enemies in an almost pure Elysian army,(I came up with an alternative with a space marine anvil to coerce the enemy to come at them). Of course flamer sentinels are fairly nice but I see them more in the counter charge/cleanup role. One thing that I somehow have missed for this since I haven't used them before was Cyclops demo vehicles. I forget if they have a plus to their explodes roll but they seem like a great front line choice in front of the sentinels. If they survive the 1st turn charge they go boom and hopefully the sentinel is 6 inches away.

 

My back line at this point will be mostly standard IG(I am not dropping them, why pay the extra points and Elysia has non-drop regiments as well)

3 Cyclops

4 flamer/chainsaw scout sentinels

3 squads of mortars and an officer

1 Missile launcher squad

2 Tauros Venators with lascannons

Maybe two of the grenade launcher tauroses(i?)

Plus the 3 aircraft in my list and their embarked squad and officer.

 

Should be enough to focus much of the opponent's attention. At the least he will have to deal with it since 9d6 non-los shots every round is going to annoy him. Assuming he does a first round charge, it will have to be supported somehow. In my last game, even that 15 man genestealer ambushing squad was mulched by my other units around it and wouldn't have gotten near as far without being constantly catalyst'ed by a supporting swarmlord.

 

Meanwhile the rest of my force drops in safe locations to either take out his back line or surround him to pepper him from safe locations. Another thing I learned last game was dropped weapons squads were stupidly helpful even aside from your ubiquitous plasma storm troopers. I quickly lost a sniper squad on the ground even in cover that was in my deployment zone. But I had ran out of good locations in my deployment zone so I left a sniper team for deep striking and on the first turn after the mauling I got from 5 1st turn charges I stuck them on top of an inaccessible tower in his deployment zone and they proceeded to plink wounds from his protected malinothrope(sp?) followed by a mass storm trooper strike the next turn killing it and forcing his artillery guys to go on animal instinct. Had I deep struck that other team, I would have done much better. Since guard can effectively out gun almost every army even if its pure MSU spam I think on a bigger scale this would be awesome.

 

So my next list will have the vet team with meltas in the valk along with an officer to tell them to reroll ones, and then deep striking with 2 scion teams and their officer with plasma, a command squad with all plasma, a couple infantry squads for objective taking, 2 tarantula squads with heavy bolters, another missile team, heavy bolter team, and 2 sniper teams. Basically I will surround him in a ring of MSU firepower and force him to spread his forces out in order to get to me. Even better if there is terrain like last weekend's letting me put stuff in stupid locations with no access. Then he still has to deal with the original firebase, a Valk, and 2 vultures with punishers.

 

Edit: Just did the math on the lark, I am sure everyone else already noticed it but 3 scout sentinels deployed forward will make a 63"x21" bubble(assuming a 3in base) in front of your lines. That's huge with their free move. Might have solved my issues with these silly first turn charges. 4 of them protect the entire front line. Some smaller fast movers  and weapon teams in the back field to fill holes in the bubble and you are good to go. This game just turned into an exercise in geometry.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Galron

[DietOfLiquor]

I've definitely thought about specific units to be spaced out enough for the counter charge. Most specifically 3-4 special weapons teams of nothing but flamers. Should be able to space them all out enough to prevent your opponent from getting into your back field. Best part, they're dirt cheap and you can advance them later on to hop on objectives if they survive the first three turns