8th Dark Angels Tactica and Tournament Guide (in progress)

[Helycon]

It's in this WHC post:

 

 

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Ah, fair enough. I thought you meant you could chose the datasheet you preferred from the codex or the index, once ours is available. For now, it's fine. Not a lot changed anyhow as far as we know. Point changes to bikes don't affect us, since we don't have regular bikers, but RW bikers and same applies to speeders.

 

In the end, once the codex drops, those sheets will be used, unless there is no new sheet (such as the ones for librarians and chaplains on bikes). Hopefully their army building app hurries up

[Frater Cornelius]

According to the Codex, the only things you can not use as DA, BA and SW are Stratagems, Psychic Powers, Warlord Traits and Relics. The units and point costs are all fair game though. Third game tomorrow, after that I will post my initial opinion on the now complete set of Primaris. Doing well though ;)

[Solrac]

According to the Codex, the only things you can not use as DA, BA and SW are Stratagems, Psychic Powers, Warlord Traits and Relics. The units and point costs are all fair game though. Third game tomorrow, after that I will post my initial opinion on the now complete set of Primaris. Doing well though

Thanks for the research Immersturm! Won't bother going back to Predators if I can't use the Stratagems.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

According to the Codex, the only things you can not use as DA, BA and SW are Stratagems, Psychic Powers, Warlord Traits and Relics. The units and point costs are all fair game though. Third game tomorrow, after that I will post my initial opinion on the now complete set of Primaris. Doing well though

Thanks for the research Immersturm! Won't bother going back to Predators if I can't use the Stratagems.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/qGVWu5d.jpg

 

You're welcome. The 'rules listed in this section' are what I mentioned above. Non-relic Wargear and units are prior to this section.

 

(Do not mind that fat stain. Store is getting me a replacement. Seems to have slipped during printing.)

Edited July 27, 2017 by Immersturm

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, games are done. Instead of rattling down the batreps I will instead give you a rundown of the units I played, how they performed and all that jazz. Small disclaimer: Yes, I had the rules early and used a Leviathan to proxy a Redemptor and a Land Raider to proxy a Repulsor. The rest of the models were my Stormcasts, which are slowly being adjusted to be used as Primaris as we speak. Anyway, here we go:

 

At 1850 I played this list:

Hidden Content

Battalion:

Gravis Captain

Lieutenant - MC Auto Bolt Rifle

 

10 Intercessors - 2 Aux. Grenade Launchers

5 Scouts - Sniper Rifles

5 Scouts - Sniper Rifles

 

LS Dark Shroud - Assault Cannon

 

6 Hellblasters - Plasma Incinerators

 

Repulsor - Twin-LC, Las-talon, Onslaught Gatling, 2 Stormbolters, 2 Frag-Assault-Launchers, Icarus Missile Pod, Ironsomething Heavy Stubber

 

Vanguard Detachment:

Librarian - Force Sword

 

Redemptor Dreadnought - Heavy Onslught Gatling, Onslaught Gatling, 2 Stormbolters, Icarus Missile Pod

3 Aggressors - dakka version

3 Aggressors - dakka version

 

An observant reader may realize that that is only 1807pts. That is because I am retarded, end of story

 

At 2000pts I played something similar, but somewhat more optimized:

Hidden Content

Battalion:

Primaris Captain - Power Sword, MC Stalker Bolt Rifle

Lieutenant - MC Auto Bolt Rifle

 

10 Intercessors - 2 Aux. Grenade Launchers

5 Intercessors - Stalker Bolters

5 Intercessors - Stalker Bolters

 

LS Dark Shroud

 

6 Hellblasters - Plasma Incinerators

LSV

 

Repulsor - Twin-LC, Las-talon, Onslaught Gatling, 2 Stormbolters, 2 Frag-Assault-Launchers, Icarus Missile Pod

 

Vanguard Detachment:

Chaplain

 

Redemptor Dreadnought - Macro Plasma Incinerator, Onslaught Gatling, 2 Stormbolters, Icarus Missile Pod

6 Aggressors - Flamer version

Primaris Apothecary

 

2000 on the nose.

 

Game 1

 

What did I play against? First game was an 1850 tournament test game against Nids with Swarmlord, double moving Genestealer that arrive with a Trygon Prime, that big FW Nids Lord of War thingy, a Hive Crone and plenty of skitters. It was an easy win.

 

What went well:

• Infiltrating Scouts were dowright amazing as they built up that much more distance between my main units and his quick stuff. The first turn charge needed to go around and only killed 3 Aggressors and got the Dread down to 1.

• The Repulsor has very respectable dakka and managed to get the Hive Crone down to 3W despite -1 to hit, reducing it's movement to very slow thus unable to fly over my Scouts in T1.

• Primaris shine in anti-infantry firepower and after my second turn there was very little left on the board.

• Hellblasters are still the most dangerous unit in the Primaris army, when supported with re-rolls. They did most the work when bringing down that big FW monster.

 

What went badly:

• I wish I had Flamers on the Aggressors. The overwatch fire would have been deadly and I had enough small dakka as it was.

• Sniper Rifles were a waste of space. More on that here.

 

Game 2

 

The next game was against an 1850 tournament test game against UM Razorbacks (without the Codex as it would be released o the date of the tournament. The reason I could not participate with my Primaris). He has a Captain on bike, a Primaris Lietenant, a TM and IG Commander (cheap HQs), 6 Razorbacks (2 TLC, 2 THF, 1 TAC, 1 THB) with Marines with various weapons inside, a Stormtalon, a Culexus and that was it I think. It was a narrow win, though it could have been more in my favour if my army was more efficient.

 

What went well:

• Hellblasters were unstoppable. 'Nuff said.

• Repulsor drew all his firepower and it took almost his entire army to kill it through the DS.

• Aggressors are solid distractions.

• Do not mess with the Redemptor when it comes to melee. He will rip you a new one inside a new one.

 

What went badly:

• The Repulsor is waaaaaay too important to the army because of its armament and thus comes under heavy fire. It did not live to see a second turn. Unfortunately, outside of taking a second one, there is no way to spread out the firepower a little better.

• Primaris lack anti-tank firepower. The Repulsor and Hellblasters are the only ones that can do it fairly well at range. The Heavy Onslaught Gatling of the Dread was pretty useless, as it fails to kill Marines in cover and fails to wound tanks reliably.

• Once again, I needed the Flamers on the Aggressors. This would've made very short work of the Culexus, thus securing an easy win as opposed to a narrow one (it would have denied 5 points to my opponent).

• Snipers were once again a disappointment.

 

What annoyed me:

• I had very bad luck in the firts few turns. The Redemptor failed to damage one of the TLC Razorbacks (though crippling the other), which ultimately led to its demise. The opponent saved 80% of regular shots at his tanks.

• I was careless and ignore a singular Melta hidden in a building, which led to its demise.

• The Librarian was the only model left inside the Repulsor, because of the Culexus, and actually died when the Repulsor got wrecked Oo

• Who the heck though it was a good idea to make Hunter Killer Missiles so powerful

 

Game 3

 

The last game was not very indicative of the performance of the whole army, as it was somewhat of an introductory game and piloting my army, helping the opponent and managing the rules in a relative loud environment turned out a little too much to handle and my performance slipped heavily and thus turned into a narrow loss, which would've been perfectly fine if it the exhaustion did not tilt me a little bit. Still, I got to experience the performace of some changes I made.

My opponent played Laser Long Fangs, Grimnar, Blood Claws, a Sicaran Battle Tank, Björn, Murderface, a Blizzard Dread and Scouts.

 

What went well:

• Stalker Intercessors performed way better than Scouts, as they held the ground on back objectives in cover way better and their -2AP caused more wounds total than Scouts did with their MW and 0AP wounds.

• The regular Captain was a better pick due to his longer range and cheaper point costs. In true DA fashion, the HQs are not the melee powerhouses you expect of other Marine factions but are instead amazing buff units.

• The Chaplain is very solid to advance with melee units and secure them the re-rolls, giving the Captain the ability to hang back.

• Flamer Aggressors are dangerous. Maybe not as dangerous at range, but boy are they a charge-deterrent.

• Plasma on the Redemptor is far more pleasing. If the D6 goes badly, you can spend a Command Point. The -4 and S8 without overheating destroys Marines and the better range gives him a gunline-y option. It also has the most forgiving overheating penalty with just one MW and nothing else.

 

What went badly:

• Once again the Repulsor got the full force of the opponent and whiffed soon after. That piece of equipment seriously can not catch a break.

• The LSV is too dangerous to use if you want to be greedy. After moving it overheats on 2+ and it actually managed to kill itself without doing any damage.

• The Apothecary is simply not good enough when 2W models are eating the bulk of the shots and 4+ revive only worked once. Not worth the 68pts if you ask me.

• As mentioed, the HQs are more there to buff things, which means they totally whiff against big choppy fellas like Grimnar, meaning your line troops are all the more important.

 

What annoyed me:

• SW Dreads are very powerful, especially Björn and the Blizzard Dread. in fact, I know one guy at the tournament plays a TWC + Dread list and he went undefeated during the test games. Scary.

• The Sicaran is pure filth if you can roll plenty of 5s and 6s. That thing took 13W from the Repulsor even though it only hits on 5s and the Repulsor was in cover.

 

Summary

 

So, what have I learned about Primaris and DA in general from those games?

 

The Good:

• Primaris are very good at anti-infantry, but you need to be cautious with tanks. Maybe even 2 Repulsors are the better answer, albeit the more expensive one. 

• Hellblasters are an auto-include.

• Cheaper HQs are usually better with Primaris as they can not do much in melee.

• Stalkers are not as bad as they sound, better than Scouts if you ask me.

• The Repulsor is amazing, especially when left alone.

• Primaris have a more than average amount of dakka per unit.

• Few drops during deplyoment (especially with all Heroes + Hellblaster deploying inside the Repulsor).

 

The Bad:

• Heroes are pretty weak when the units are gone.

• Anti-Tank firepower is concetrated on a few big models (Repulsor, Redemptor and Hellblasters), thus easily picked out.

• Low model count, thus heavily reliant on the first two turns.

• Alright, but still pretty ineffectual Troops, that are more scoring bodies than credible threats.

• High variance due to specialized units are few units, thus subject to statistical outliers (aka bad luck).

• Scouts are good as long as they are cheap. Snipers are pretty useless.

• LSV is too dangerous to use. I prefer the Redemptor, which is tougher, choppier and only costs 50 more points.

 

The Ugly:

• I have still not used Inceptors since my first game. They are overpriced in an already expensive army.

 

The Questionable(?):

• I have no idea if the LSDS did a good job to be fair. I noticed it stopping a few high powered shots, but it also caused me to bunch up more than usual. I think it is solid, but that is because I have no contrast of how it would have been without it. Still, opponent were annoyed, so that is a good sign at least. Verdict is still out but I am inclined to give it a 'yes'.

• Aggressors are a difficult bunch. Their Dakka version brings massed (and I mean MASSED) 4/0/1 shots to an army that already has a good match-up against hordes. However, exchanging them for flamers makes them very niche. The Flamers are excellent at tackling assassins and they are the perfect charge deterrent. I feel the Nid game would've been better if I just used Aggressors to stop the Gene Stealers as opposed to relying on Scouts. Defensive formation as opposed to meat-shields. However, I feel like I lack significant pressure against gunlines without the dakka version. Also, they are not cheap. Cheaper than most units, but 6 guys still cost 285pts, which is only 12W with T5 and 3+. For 200 I can get get 10 Reivers with Hooks and 59pts to spare. I like the Aggressors, especially since I see them as my Primaris Deathwing, but in terms of efficiency I am still on a fence.

• The Librarian, while useful for MW, is mor expensive than a Chaplain and his current powers are not favourable. Aversion only works against big and shooty units, which you will not find in a Razorback-filled meta, while the other two powers are highly situational. Still, he performed well in past games, so I need to do more testing.

 

Tips for playing Primaris:

• Use your low model count to start the game. The Repulsor goes a long way into securing that. However, still deploy as if the opponent start, seeing as most people use a CP to re-roll the seizing roll.

• Primaris rely on the first two turns to cripple the opponent. Do not be afraid to really let all hell lose by disembarking early and overcharging every turn. A dead enemy can not score points. You are not numerous enough to play the scoring game exclusively.

• You need defense against charges, be they Scouts or Flame Aggressors.

• Mind you anti-tank. With Razorbacks turning out to be very powerful, you need to deal with T7 at range.

• You will never have more than 7 CP unless you go to great lengths to secure them. Use them wise. My preferred option is just using the 1CP re-roll one for charges, D6 shots or damage rolls and literally nothing else (even if I had the SM options).

• Ask the opponents how many drops they have and do not be afraid to combat squad if you still finish first regardless of who starts deploying (e.g. you have 9 drops and he has 11, thus you can combat squad one unit and still finish ahead even if the opponent starts).

 

Verdict

 

With that in mind, what would be the most effective DA setup in my eyes?

• MSU Tacs with Plasmas inside Razorbacks with TLC

• Full Gatling Redemptor(s) (regular Dreads are a good alternative though)

• Reoulsor with Hellblasters

• Dark Shroud

• Sicaran Battle Tank(s)

• Lieutenant (does not matter if regular or Primaris)

• Azrael (if you have the points, otherwise just a cheap Captain)

• I have heard that a Crusader with DWK are nuts. Throw in Azzy or a Chaplain if you use this.

 

However, if you are as stubborn as me and want to play pure Primaris even if it costs you efficiency (it does, because you lack Razorbacks and Troops that can do a whole lot), consider the following:

• Redemptor with Plasma, maybe two.

• Hellblasters in Repulsor

• A second Repulsor with either more Plasmas (too expensive though) or just Intercessor/Aggressors (preferable)

• A Dark Shroud

• Aggressors or Reivers (still not sure)

• Keep your HQs cheap and get at least a Captain and Lieutenant

• Intercessors are solid with either of the three variant, so take 3 of those

 

There we go. A bit of info on the new boys. I will keep trying them out and see if I can improve. Naturally, DA book with jump-start their effectiveness. Until then, use them as they are or drop the LSDS and play them as Ravenguard or something. The difference is there, but it is not as big as Primaris seem to be designed as a stand-alone army that can mix with Marines if so desired, from what I gathered while playing.

 

If needed, I can turn this info and newly gained as well to write up a DA Primaris guide for use in this thread.

 

I hope you guys learned something

Edited July 29, 2017 by Immersturm

[dtse]

Your conclusions are similar to mine on primaris. The new range of weapon types that hellblasters can take is nice. The dread is a beast and I think the repulsor works best as a heavy weapons platform instead of spamming more 4/0/1 shots. as you said low model count elite army but I just don't think they got the legs to withstand strong firepower. Guess we will see. Of course for us as dark angels we also don't get any of the new tactics or strategems when using our primaris so we will see how our codex does for using primaris.

 

And yea. Space wolves dreads are awesome especially since they are characters!

[Frater Cornelius]

Your conclusions are similar to mine on primaris. The new range of weapon types that hellblasters can take is nice. The dread is a beast and I think the repulsor works best as a heavy weapons platform instead of spamming more 4/0/1 shots. as you said low model count elite army but I just don't think they got the legs to withstand strong firepower. Guess we will see. Of course for us as dark angels we also don't get any of the new tactics or strategems when using our primaris so we will see how our codex does for using primaris.

 

And yea. Space wolves dreads are awesome especially since they are characters!

 

The Repulsor firstly has no choice but take the 4/0/1 shots and second it does not stop its function since those guns are not exclusive.

[dtse]

Don't have codex in front of me. I thought it could replace guns with lascannons. My mistake

[Frater Cornelius]

Don't have codex in front of me. I thought it could replace guns with lascannons. My mistake

 

You do, but you replace the Heavy Onslaught and a THB. The 4/0/1 are there no matter what. I think you can save yourself around 20 points by skipping the Fragstorm Launchers, the small Gatling and the Heavy Stubber. You will be at 324 at the cheapest if you want the 4 LC shots. However, what use will the Auto-Launchers have? You will never not shoot and hope the -1 and the Dark Shroud are enoughto stop enemy LC. He will simply shoot your other stuff. Might as well pay 8 additional points and get the 2 Fragstorm thingies.

 

By the way, I just noticed that I forgot the Krakstorm Launchers in all of my games Oo As well as to pay for it :D

[Semirhagge]

What is the LSDS and the LSV?

[ronin_cse]

What is the LSDS and the LSV?

 

Land Speeder Dark Shroud and Land Speeder Vengeance

[Malakithe]

I was thinking of going full Primaris with some heavy FW support. Plus they just released another FAQ for new units and said yet another FAQ was coming to include Primaris Interrogator Chaplains...as if they weren't scary enough

[ronin_cse]

I was thinking of going full Primaris with some heavy FW support. Plus they just released another FAQ for new units and said yet another FAQ was coming to include Primaris Interrogator Chaplains...as if they weren't scary enough

Where is the FAQ that says primaris interrogator chaplains are coming?

[Frater Cornelius]

I know the Primaris Chaplain. Primaris Interrogator would be a milestone, as it would be the first faction-specific Primaris unit.

[Malakithe]

 

I was thinking of going full Primaris with some heavy FW support. Plus they just released another FAQ for new units and said yet another FAQ was coming to include Primaris Interrogator Chaplains...as if they weren't scary enough

Where is the FAQ that says primaris interrogator chaplains are coming?

There isn't one but the most recent community page article that released the Primaris FAQ to all the special chapters said that the chapter specific equivalents are coming soon. Like the blood angels priest and the Primaris Interrogator Chaplain

[ronin_cse]

 

 

I was thinking of going full Primaris with some heavy FW support. Plus they just released another FAQ for new units and said yet another FAQ was coming to include Primaris Interrogator Chaplains...as if they weren't scary enough

Where is the FAQ that says primaris interrogator chaplains are coming?

There isn't one but the most recent community page article that released the Primaris FAQ to all the special chapters said that the chapter specific equivalents are coming soon. Like the blood angels priest and the Primaris Interrogator Chaplain

 

 

Found it! Bottom of the most recent article about the new units:

 

"If you’re a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Deathwatch player, you’ll be able to add these new units to your armies as well! We’re updating our rules PDF so you can field a brutal Primaris Interrogator Chaplain or a Sanguinary Priest of the Ultima Founding, or break through xenos fortifications with a deadly Deathwatch Repulsor. There are full points for all these new units to be used in matched play, and the full datasheets will come in the box for each model."

 

I'm a little unclear if they mean for these to really be different rules wise or if they are just saying taking one as a Dark Angel makes it an Interrogator

Edited July 30, 2017 by ronin_cse

[dtse]

Probably that. Just call it an interrogator lol

[Solrac]

The down side to the Las-Talon is its only 24" range however the Repulsor is extremely mobile so the short range only matters for your alpha strike. Disappointing it can only transport Primaris Marines.

 

I'm really considering building a list around 3 of them. Lots of dakka at short range and some good anti tank power with 16W and T8. And the best part is that it can fall back and still fire.

[Gen.Steiner]

24" range lascannon!?

[Solrac]

24" range lascannon!?

The Repulsor can have a Twin Lascannon and a Las-Talon (same weapon as the one on the Stormhawk Interceptor). The Las-Talon is the same profile as a Lascannon except 24" Heavy 2

[Gen.Steiner]

Ah, I've never used a Stormhawk so I didn't realise it was an already existing weapon. Disappointingly short range for an air-to-air weapon! :P

[Frater Cornelius]

Las-talon on the Hawk is air to ground in this edition as it lacks any rules that improve to hit against air.

[Gen.Steiner]

Harrrumph. Grumble mumble.

Still, more lascannons are good.

[Berzul]

On the topic of combos for tournaments, planning lists for the Konor Campaign after what was a very eye-opening first try at competitive gaming in 8th edition, I was thinking of how to create a very survivable small list. Small, because Konor in my local store is being played at very few points to keep matches quick.

 

I thought of the combination of:

 

Librarian (in any form) with Aversion + Deathwing Storm Shields (be it Knights or regular Terminators) + Apothecary (any, be it in power armor, terminator armor, or bike) + Ravenwing Darkshroud + Techmarine.

 

You get enemies to fire with a -1 to -2 penalty, against a shield wall of 3++ saves, that can be constantly healed, revived and repaired. Sure, it will be marching slowly, but I think it can be quite hard to take down. Be it because everything is high toughness and high saves with shots comming in twice debuffed, or because your opponent has to constantly focus its firepower on the Shroud, giving you extra turns of marching without receiving hits on the infantry.

 

Add a Venerable Dread in the mix, and you can set it up as a Vanguard Detachment to a larger force, with a mix of everything. You can have Lascannons or Autocannons on the Dread for firepower, Assault Cannons on the Darkshroud and Terminators for infantry killing, Flamer on the dread and Storm Bolters all around for when you get really close, and then hammers and powerfists for close combat.

[Gen.Steiner]

That sounds brutal, but will - in theory - struggle against things like Smite and other psychic powers that just kill your faces.

 

On the other hand apart from Grey Knights and Thousand Sons I imagine most armies would struggle to put out enough damage to really dent it before it pushes their face in with power fists and thunder hammers.