8th Dark Angels Tactica and Tournament Guide (in progress)

[JLEAlloy]

I have a question about auras.  I understand if it says a model within 6", but if it says unit does it mean that only one member of the unit has to be within 6" for the whole unit to be affected by the aura, or that the whole unit must be within 6" ?

 

Thanks

[Kewl Imp]

Agreed. At most two. But then you lose other stuff to make it fit. I agree with you. I don't see them allowing things like that to stick. I'm pretty sure when the codex comes out we'll be paying for plasma talons too.

I have a question about auras.  I understand if it says a model within 6", but if it says unit does it mean that only one member of the unit has to be within 6" for the whole unit to be affected by the aura, or that the whole unit must be within 6" ?

 

Thanks

Only one model in the unit has to be in the bubble for it to effect everyone in the unit. UNLESS the rule states for each model within the aura.

[dtse]

yea if it says "model within 6" then only models will get it, like Azrael's 4+ invuln.  If its "units within 6" then you can daisy chain away

[Solrac]

I've started constructing the unit review section and would like your input.

 

If you can post in here or send me a PM with your experiences using a unit with pros and cons so I can add it in. Please just review the unit itself as we will be covering unit combos in the next section. Please do not compare it to the 7th ed version of the unit, would like fresh eyes for 8th only.

 

Cheers guys.

[dtse]

My unit reviews, based off about 15 games so far:

 

HQ - Azrael -  excellent value at 183 points.  One of only few things in game that gives an invulnerable save bubble, and at 4++ to boot. That's 50% chance to ignore damage!  Be careful its MODELS within 6, not units.  One might say thus better for buffing vehicles, but if you have infantry just take the wound on your units within 6".  His plasma gun is extra strong, and with rerolls feel free to be slightly liberal on overcharging.  And he rocks in melee now.  He is infantry so benefits on lots of things that infantry can do, as well as being able to go into transports (he no longer gives invulnerable save to embarked transport though).  Overall, excellent HQ choice, and in combo with dark shroud, he's half of the Dark Angels version of Guilliman.  He is as close to being an auto-take as our index gets.

 

HQ - Chaplain - don't do it, take the Interrogator

 

HQ - Interrogator Chaplain: formerly the best HQ we had, now definitely a solid top 5 along with azrael, belial, and sammy.  Put him in terminator armour if you are running deathwing, otherwise would always slap him on bike for mobility, the extra bolter shots, the toughness and extra wound.  I would say power fist is a must, the crozius is pretty poor.  Since marines are leadership 8, using his leadership of 9 is nice, but with They Shall Know No Fear, it's not super useful.  The -1 to opponents leadership can be clutch though.  His rerolls in fight phase now works every time you fight, not just first round, so that already is way better.  Priced competitively, he is definitely a good HQ.

 

HQ - Belial: Very awesome now.  Blends in super nice with deathwing, gives the all important rerolls, and his sword received a very nice buff.  He is an auto-take if you are playing death wing.

 

HQ - Sammael - way better, and cheaper than in 7th.  Would skip out on sable claw, not worth the points for a little extra survivability and some assault cannons.  His jet bike auto runs 2d6 and most importantly, is FLY, which means he can fall back and still shoot.  Always try and get the charge on sammy, it makes his melee at x2 strength and 2 damage a piece really really good (sure beats his old crappy sword).  Whereas he was an expensive HQ for ravenwing in last edition, he is auto-take now

 

HQ - librarian - I think librarian is a luxury unless playing 2000 points.  But at 2000 points, its almost mandatory to have at least one psyker.  The ability to deny a key power is clutch.  Smite is good but situational and you have to have good awareness of movement to use it effectively.  And Aversion is by far our best power.  -1 to hit is super awesome.  Don't understand how key that is, especially if combo'd with dark shroud to make one key unit literally unable to hit you.  Like the chaplain, would put in terminator armour or on bike, depending on rest of your army.

 

HQ - Asmodai - finally a reason to use this cool model.  He basically is an auto include into a death wing army.  With the usual chaplain buffs, but also giving +1 attack it makes death wing and death wing knights that much better.  Only issue is lack of mobility, as he can't take terminator armour.  But you can't put your whole death wing army in deep strike anyway, so put a bunch in a land raider with him in it.

 

HQ - Ezekiel - He is a beast in combat now, and our only 2-power 2-deny psyker, but I don't think that makes him worth it in my opinion.  Especially with lack of mobility.  I would just go for a stock librarian and use points elsewhere.  Too bad, always wanted to play ezekiel.

 

ELITE - Apothecary - I'm not convinced about apothecaries yet.  Maybe just cause i can't roll 4+ that well!  Ability to heal D3 is nice, but not that useful except on characters, and 50% chance of failing to resurrect and then not being able to act is a bit crappy.  They are also more expensive than their non-apothecary brethren.  My jury is still out on usefulness of apothecaries.

 

ELITE - Ancients - +1 attack is very nice.  I think death wing and ravenwing ancients are more worth it than apothecaries just for this reason.  Expensive though, more than twice cost, but probably worth it, and as character level stats can hold their own. 

 

ELITE - Champions - Not worth the points to be honest, would just buy more other stuff, or go for an apothecary or ancient.  Was never impressed with champs in last edition, and still are not.

 

ELITE - Death Wing Terminators - probably as expensive as they used to be, but terminators are that much more scary now. And no-scatter deep strike wherever and whenever you want it is so good.  Still, at base cost without upgrades, these guys are like 5-10 points below death wing knights, and way less killy, so unless you are gonna tool them up to be shooters, would just go for knights.

 

ELITE - Death Wing Knights - The bomb.  If you are running death wing, just run these guys, with Belial, Interrogator, and maybe asmodai.  Throw in a banner and thats +2 attacks!  An that flail with the rollover damage is just MEAN.  Watch your opponents cry.  These guys dropping down where you want them is a definite threat your opponent will need to deal with, and thats if you don't make 9" charge!

 

FA - Ravenwing bike squad: these guys got a nice boost.  Yea, theres no more reroll link and skilled rider (that was ridiculous anyway), and new JINK is not that good (5+ invulnerable  is no different for most weapons that will be -1 or -2 shooting at you), but these guys can now shoot special weapons AND twin boltguns, making them quite versatile.  In my opinion, melta is the way to go, plasma you can't risk overcharging and just isn't that good except for added range.  Strength 7 to 8 jump means you wound transports on 3 instead of 4, big deal.  Would take these guys as your basic troops for ravenwing lists, and flush out for ablative wounds.

 

FA - Land Speeders - At first I thought man these are way too expensive.  For heavy bolter/TML speeders, 3 of them to get the upwash movement, thats 450 points.  Thats a lot.  But man, that combination does work, parked at the back with a company master for rerolls.   And double heavy flamer speeders will make chaff cry as a suicide squad, but its expensive unit to suicide.  And with fly, they can shoot advance and flame, then charge, tie up a unit from shooting back, then fall back and flame again.  6d6 heavy flamer is hardcore.   I personally have found the flamers too suicide-y and prefer to have TML speeders sitting at back with 48" range, just creaming chaff with 6d6 frag missiles, or removing vehicles or monsters with heavy 6 krak.  Then using them in last 2-3 turns to shoot out and grab objectives.

 

FA - Black Knights: as a proud owner of about 25 black knights, i REALLY REALLY wanted them to work in 8th, but alas, they are just too expensive for slightly glorified bikers.  Yes plasma talons are good, but you aren't gonna overcharge, so they are just extra strong bolters really.  And they aren't that strong in combat now without rending.  And they die like normal marines and don't have 2+ jink.  so for 50 points a piece, it just isn't worth it.  Have tried many iterations and with many support elements, but your army is just too small if you spam even more than 5 black knights.  250 points for 5 is same as a unit of death wing knights, which are way more survivable and can deep strike wherever and can HURT.  So alas, black knights are no longer a thing.

 

FA - Dark Shroud: auto-take, in almost any dark angels list, no matter if you are playing ravenwing, death wing, or greenwing.  -1 to hit in this game (as it is in sigmar) is VVERRRY strong. if you don't think so, you haven't played enough.  6" bubble of it is just filthy.  Then you add in aversion, and one unit is doing nothing to you. Would keep it cheap with heavy bolter, but to be honest, without link, there's almost no downside to taking an assault cannon, especially if azrael is nearby.  Shroud is also hard to kill!  With 4+ invuln from azrael, the shroud becomes extremely hard to kill and takes considerable firepower from your opponent to kill.  Excellent unit

 

FA_ Vengeance: not good i'm afraid. it suffers from same fate as the plasma leman russ.   kills itself or makes its gun unusable.  Again, as before, no reason to take this at all over dark shroud, and a unit of bikers would be way better.

 

FA: Nephilim Jetfighter: too many points for mediocre flyer.  Definitely would not take this over the Dark Talon for killing chaff, and speeders are way better than it for killing heavy stuff.  Alas, jet fighter still sucks.

 

FA: Dark Talon: another all-star, probably vote from me as most improved unit in Dark Angels.  Flyers are strong in this edition, with super fast moves, on from turn 1, and no more shooting arcs, also harder to hit and can only be charged by flyers.  Hurricane bolter melts chaff like something ridiculous, 24 shots is sick.  And the stasis bomb is awesome if you can roll lots of 4+.  The rift cannon is strong for anti-vehicle/characger, and its the only source of mortals we have outside smite and that other psychic power.  It's maybe SLIGHTLY expensive when compared to other flyers in the game, but your opponent will cry the first time you melt his screen units with hurricane bolters, or the first time you stick 6-7 mortals on a unit with stasis bomb.

 

 

That's it for now

[Eldorien]

My unit reviews, based off about 15 games so far:

 

FA - Ravenwing bike squad: these guys got a nice boost.  Yea, theres no more reroll link and skilled rider (that was ridiculous anyway), and new JINK is not that good (5+ invulnerable  is no different for most weapons that will be -1 or -2 shooting at you), but these guys can now shoot special weapons AND twin boltguns, making them quite versatile.  In my opinion, melta is the way to go, plasma you can't risk overcharging and just isn't that good except for added range.  Strength 7 to 8 jump means you wound transports on 3 instead of 4, big deal.  Would take these guys as your basic troops for ravenwing lists, and flush out for ablative wounds.

 

 

 

 

Does the Ravenwing bike squad have the Jink rule? because in the index it doesnt appear. It seems that the only two units that has the Jinx special rule are the Dark Talon and the Nephilim.

[Maxxreloaded]

Ravenwing bike squad do have the jink rule when they advance.

[dtse]

All ravenwing have it. You get a 5+ invulnerable if you advance

[Eldorien]

Oh!

 

Where is it? I didnt found it hehe.

 

I was thinking that was weird to be the Dark Talon and Nephilm the only units of the Ravenwing that have that rule.

[Maxxreloaded]

Next to abilities- ATSKNF + jink

On the data card

I'm pretty sure jink is for all 'Ravenwing '

[SnakeChisler]

Just to add some stuff to what people have put up this is based on games I've played

 

Shroud - Auto Take

Librarian on bike  8/10

Azreal - 9/10

Sammael - 10/10

TechMarine on Bike 9/10

 

Elites

 

Dreads

 

  Pluses 

    More survivable

    Nice Gun Platform

     S12 in Combat

     + Venerable

  Minuses

    Only 8 wounds

    Powerfist / Heavy Flamer combo is eye warteringly expensive

    -1 to hit with heavy weapons (inc Powerfist)

 

  Rifle Dread (2 Autocannons @ 8 Shots S7 D2) best of the bunch at 10/10

  Dread with Twin Las + Twin Autocannons best of both worlds a bit expensive but solves a lot of problems 9 1/2 / 10

  Las / Missile a stock loadout good all rounder 8 / 10

  Powerfist + Heavy weapon 6 / 10

 

Overall

Great gun platform for the Azreal / Shroud bunker

Disapointing in Melee with  Heavy PF

(Take a TechMarine if your Mech Heavy)

 

Dedicated transports

 

  Razorbacks

   Gunline Twin Las or Las / Plas

   Forward moving units Twin Assault cannon & Storm Bolter

   Cheap all rounder Twin Heavy bolter

 

  Overall GW has done us well over the move from Battle Co there a real work horse of a Greenwing army

 

Tactics

 

There are a number of things at play in 8th one is the temptation by a lot of players to go big, the answer from DA is go -1 to hit yourself both with the shroud and aversion. The bigger your opponent goes then the combo is just magnified out of all proportion and there's no upper limit in the book as far as I can see so if your starting Base 4+ then -1 for moving & shooting a heavy weapon & -2 for shroud and Aversion your on 7's (as in not shooting at me) 

 

Las Cannon is the best all round Tank / Monster killer out there, anything S8+ goes to 3's to wound all the big stuff & packing plenty of command points your key time to use them is to re-roll those damage results of 1.

 

Any sort of re-roll is absolutely devastating when applied to spam bullet weapons such as assault cannons, we've been lead to believe that Orks & Nids will make a comeback but given the sheer ferocity of Hurricane Bolters from the Talon & Twin Assault Cannons with a Re-roll + the lack of any cover save on current game experience they die in droves.

[dtse]

I didn't write a greenwing review since it's same as vanilla marines if we aren't talking combos yet

[Kasil]

 

FA - Land Speeders - At first I thought man these are way too expensive.  For heavy bolter/TML speeders, 3 of them to get the upwash movement, thats 450 points.  Thats a lot.  But man, that combination does work, parked at the back with a company master for rerolls.   And double heavy flamer speeders will make chaff cry as a suicide squad, but its expensive unit to suicide.  And with fly, they can shoot advance and flame, then charge, tie up a unit from shooting back, then fall back and flame again.  6d6 heavy flamer is hardcore.   I personally have found the flamers too suicide-y and prefer to have TML speeders sitting at back with 48" range, just creaming chaff with 6d6 frag missiles, or removing vehicles or monsters with heavy 6 krak.  Then using them in last 2-3 turns to shoot out and grab objectives.

 

 

FA_ Vengeance: not good i'm afraid. it suffers from same fate as the plasma leman russ.   kills itself or makes its gun unusable.  Again, as before, no reason to take this at all over dark shroud, and a unit of bikers would be way better.

 

I think that you should be comparing the Vengeance to the Land Speeder and not other units since they will occupy the same role as a mobile range unit (considering TML and not flamer).  That said, have you crunched the numbers on the TML against the Plasma Storm Battery?  The TML does better against basic infantry that's T3 or has a 6+ save (frag) and then anything toughness 7 or higher (krak).  The plasma does better against anything in between.  At that the delta in the middle greatly favors the plasma (think termies where the plasma is nearly twice as effective) and on the ends the TML is only a bit better. Example: expected wounds against a Rhino is 1.56 for the TML and 1.46 for the Plasma, assuming -1 hit from moving.

 

Then we get to points, the vengeance is cheaper, has three additional wounds and an additional toughness!!!  The vengeance is slower, but 12" is usually well enough.

 

So, I don't disagree with your speeder assessment, but I think you are greatly overlooking the Vengeance, as it may just be flat better and if you already like the speeder, then the vengeance is a great model.

[dtse]

I don't do math. I do in game play and experience. Math can't account for everything.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I don't do math. I do in game play and experience. Math can't account for everything.

But did you give a shot to the Vengeance and the Nephilim in the new edition?

Because it sounds like you just math'ed them away before playing with them.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Morning Star

[Kasil]

I don't do math. I do in game play and experience. Math can't account for everything.

 

No need for such a dismissive response.  Math and statistics are a very real component in this game and can be very helpful for somebody before they buy a model to put it on the table.  I am just trying to have a discussion that eventually helps me and others.

 

I am curious now though, how many games did you play the Vengeance and how many games did you play the TML speeder?  I would expect your sample size to be rather robust in order to come up with such steadfast conclusions.

[ronin_cse]

I don't do math. I do in game play and experience. Math can't account for everything.

 

Well the thing is it CAN account for just about everything. Heck you could even calculate exactly what side the dice will land on if you knew all the variables, although in the real world that's virtually impossible ;).

 

Anyways running the math on a TML vs the Plasma battery is absolutely a valid way to decide how best to build your army and then utilize the models.

[Madmonkeyman]

Dtse great unit reviews! Really good fun reading them as I'm trying to fingers out which way to go with my dark angels for 8th .

 

I think the ravenwing bikers really got a big boost in this edition where most things went up in points. 2 wounds , they can use their twin bolters that are now 4 shots and they can carry special weapons. They are usually near samael for re rolls and a dark shroud for -1 to hit . Flamers and melta guns are great as they are assault so we can even turbo boost if we have to. Flamers are great at discouraging charges as this unit needs to be up close to be effective with rapid fire weapons or combi melta. And we get to move 14inch now as well. I think you can even get an extra attack by swapping bolt pistols for chain swords for free.

 

On the other hand the attack bike is terrible now. Can only take heavy weapons so hitting at -1

 

Will miss saying jink though every time some one even looks at one of my bike units

[Solrac]

Thanks for the help gents, I'll get this updated as soon as I can. I may make alterations based on other things I have read.

[Skorp]

Haven't played enough yet to contribute, but just want to say thanks to Solrac and those contributing. Really enjoyed reading through this. RIP black knights.

[SnakeChisler]

Black Knights aren't dead there just aggressively price pointed.

 

The Vengeance Plasma is a very odd weapon in that it does nothing particularly well, its S7 as standard with a D6 and damage 2 + its not that durable. In terms of weapon Roles it kind of sits in no mans land as overcharging it basically blows it up. So a dev squad with 4 plasma is cheaper and rolls 6 hits average and you can overcharge for S8 2 damage which kills terminators on 2's with a 5+ save.

 

If I want to really kill something I'd take a Vindicator D6 on 5+ models and D3 against other stuff at S10 and its T8 to boot which is a big thing.

[Kasil]

Black Knights aren't dead there just aggressively price pointed.

 

The Vengeance Plasma is a very odd weapon in that it does nothing particularly well, its S7 as standard with a D6 and damage 2 + its not that durable. In terms of weapon Roles it kind of sits in no mans land as overcharging it basically blows it up. So a dev squad with 4 plasma is cheaper and rolls 6 hits average and you can overcharge for S8 2 damage which kills terminators on 2's with a 5+ save.

 

If I want to really kill something I'd take a Vindicator D6 on 5+ models and D3 against other stuff at S10 and its T8 to boot which is a big thing.

 

A dev squad with two heavy plasma and one heavy bolter is actually three points more than the vengeance (4 heavy plasma would be 53 points more... which is not cheaper).  The heavy bolter for each is a wash.  Two heavy plasma cannon against the plasma storm battery: the heavy plasma does more wounds against single wound infantry and the plasma storm batter does more wounds against anything with 2+ wounds.  The delta is rather significant when shooting something like a rhino at nearly one additional wound per round.

 

Regarding durability, the vengeance is 9 wounds at toughness 6 with a 3+ save.  That's not exactly soft, especially when you consider that a dev squad is effectively 5 wounds at toughness 4 with a 2+ save (assuming cover).  The move speed of the vengeance also provides additional utility.

 

and I don't mean to be on a soap box here, I am just trying to provide factual information

[Solrac]

The Vengeance is a lot better than other people give it credit. It is more survivable than a normal speeder, cheaper than a Typhoon Speeder and its D2 on its standard shot is gold, no need to overcharge except when firing at vehicles.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Solrac

[FarFromSam]

Concerning devs v. Vengeance. More wounds yes, but, where itd take a minimum of 5 ml hits to kill the devs, 2 ml could soundly smoke a vengeance, so, perhaps more survivable to small arms fire. Edited June 29, 2017 by farfromsam

[dtse]

Like a lot of things in this edition it's a trade. I love that you have to make that choice now and that nether is a bad choice. Just different.