8th Dark Angels Tactica and Tournament Guide (in progress)

[SvenONE]

I've started constructing the unit review section and would like your input.

 

If you can post in here or send me a PM with your experiences using a unit with pros and cons so I can add it in. Please just review the unit itself as we will be covering unit combos in the next section. Please do not compare it to the 7th ed version of the unit, would like fresh eyes for 8th only.

 

Cheers guys.

 

To be fair, comparison to 7th I think is still important for context purposes.  The LSV for instance went from being junk, to being better then being made slightly worse due to changes to the main rulset.  Meanwhile combi weapons went from being a way to fill out your points to a priority.

 

I've played 3 games with 8th edition so far and I've run more squads of tactical marines in razorbacks in those 3 games than I think I ever did in 6th edition.  I have a feeling they are going to be very prevalent, maybe even a staple this edition.

 

One of the limitations of tactical squads, and and dark angels in general was the lack of high-strength and volume shooting from their basic line troops, especially for their cost.  The squad I ran this weekend (x3) was:

 

5-Man tactical (Sarge Combi-Plasma, Plasma Cannon) + Dedi Razorback (Twin Plasma Gun).

 

In the 6th/7th edition that would run you approximately 200 points (you probably wouldn't run the PC).  You'd get a one time use S7AP2, and some very low probability S7 shots.  Now that loadout is giving you at a minimum 4-S7 shots within 24" and a max of 9-S7 shots if you get the 5/6 on your D3 for the cannon.  Consider the fact that at WORST after you move you have a 50% chance of landing a cannon shot where in previous editions if you moved you'd have 0% chance of landing a shot with that cannon.  That's a huge difference.  Very excited about this.

 

Devastators also benefit from the new heavy rules.  Heavy Bolters are back imo.  4HBs are 12 shots at 4s on a move rather than 6s.  Going from 17% chance to a 50% chance is a mighty big change.

[Berzul]

On the subject of Heavy Weapons, any thoughts on the Company Ancient as a buff unit for a Spearhead Detachment of Devastators?

 

With split firing, you can now assemble 3 Devastator Squads with completely mismatched weapons.

 

This means you spread out your wargear and reduce "safe zones" for your opponent. This means that your opponent cannot simply evade one dev squad to stay away from harm from a specific weapon, because each squad now poses a thread (albeit, a slightly reduced one, when each squad is considered individually).

 

Now, the problem with Devastators over say landspeeders, is how they lose effectiveness much quicker. A landspeeder can take 3 wounds and still fire 3 heavy weapons. A dev squad that takes three wounds will be at 25 or 50 per cent effectiveness at most.

 

So, you had to take ablative wounds in the form of extra marines. But that becomes costly and still means you cannot but keep those squads at full strength, that means no combat squads (otherwise whats the point of the extra wounds).

 

Now, even if it is not a solution to this, I feel maybe in our army the Greenwing Ancient was desgined to fit a role here.

 

Put the squads around the banner and, each wound you take means a chance for one last salvo of fire. Gives taking wounds on the squad a silver linning. Allows you to keep them small, without so much fear of them being killed, and might even discourage fire since you would be shooting them in your opponents turn as a result of wounds, potentially disrupting his own shooting phase by targetting key units that haven yet fired.

 

I don't know what your experience has been with the Company Ancient, but I see little use of him in the lists of the forums, so I wonder if someone has tried this and discovered its not worth it, or if noone has tried it since there seems to be less use of this guy over his DW or RW variant.

 

Thoughts?

Edited June 29, 2017 by Berzul

[SnakeChisler]

If you put a Las cannon on a Tank it costs the same points as putting it on a Devastator, one has 10 wounds at T7 the other has 1 at T4

 

I've tried a couple of games using devastators they get razzed  T1 I think the best loadout for them is going to be HB'S for crowd control, the Sniper Scout Squads with ML get mostly ignored as a nuisance while my opponent prioritises the Razorbacks and other Mech.

 

I've been running Plasma Combi-plasma on the tac squads but you need enough marines to be taken seriously otherwise they get sidestepped or nuked. The thing pushing you to take more is the lure of command points and after a few games they really are important.

[SvenONE]

On the subject of Heavy Weapons, any thoughts on the Company Ancient as a buff unit for a Spearhead Detachment of Devastators?

 

With split firing, you can now assemble 3 Devastator Squads with completely mismatched weapons.

 

This means you spread out your wargear and reduce "safe zones" for your opponent. This means that your opponent cannot simply evade one dev squad to stay away from harm from a specific weapon, because each squad now poses a thread (albeit, a slightly reduced one, when each squad is considered individually).

 

Now, the problem with Devastators over say landspeeders, is how they lose effectiveness much quicker. A landspeeder can take 3 wounds and still fire 3 heavy weapons. A dev squad that takes three wounds will be at 25 or 50 per cent effectiveness at most.

 

So, you had to take ablative wounds in the form of extra marines. But that becomes costly and still means you cannot but keep those squads at full strength, that means no combat squads (otherwise whats the point of the extra wounds).

 

Now, even if it is not a solution to this, I feel maybe in our army the Greenwing Ancient was desgined to fit a role here.

 

Put the squads around the banner and, each wound you take means a chance for one last salvo of fire. Gives taking wounds on the squad a silver linning. Allows you to keep them small, without so much fear of them being killed, and might even discourage fire since you would be shooting them in your opponents turn as a result of wounds, potentially disrupting his own shooting phase by targetting key units that haven yet fired.

 

I don't know what your experience has been with the Company Ancient, but I see little use of him in the lists of the forums, so I wonder if someone has tried this and discovered its not worth it, or if noone has tried it since there seems to be less use of this guy over his DW or RW variant.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Speeders and Devs will always be a tradeoff that I think come down to preference, I don't think there's a clear winner.  Speeders may have more wounds and higher toughness, but they don't have a 3+ armor save and the save they DO get they only get if they advance, and correct me if I'm wrong, but even if they are a vehicle they cannot shoot in their turn if they DO advance (still combing through the rules so I could be wrong).  A speeder could still fire their 2 weapons down wounds, but an opening salvo of a dev squad has a greater volume of shots.

 

While it increases their cost, you always have the option to put those devs inside a drop pod or other transport which are probably the best way to find those ablative wounds.

[Berzul]

 

 

On the subject of Heavy Weapons, any thoughts on the Company Ancient as a buff unit for a Spearhead Detachment of Devastators?

 

With split firing, you can now assemble 3 Devastator Squads with completely mismatched weapons.

 

This means you spread out your wargear and reduce "safe zones" for your opponent. This means that your opponent cannot simply evade one dev squad to stay away from harm from a specific weapon, because each squad now poses a thread (albeit, a slightly reduced one, when each squad is considered individually).

 

Now, the problem with Devastators over say landspeeders, is how they lose effectiveness much quicker. A landspeeder can take 3 wounds and still fire 3 heavy weapons. A dev squad that takes three wounds will be at 25 or 50 per cent effectiveness at most.

 

So, you had to take ablative wounds in the form of extra marines. But that becomes costly and still means you cannot but keep those squads at full strength, that means no combat squads (otherwise whats the point of the extra wounds).

 

Now, even if it is not a solution to this, I feel maybe in our army the Greenwing Ancient was desgined to fit a role here.

 

Put the squads around the banner and, each wound you take means a chance for one last salvo of fire. Gives taking wounds on the squad a silver linning. Allows you to keep them small, without so much fear of them being killed, and might even discourage fire since you would be shooting them in your opponents turn as a result of wounds, potentially disrupting his own shooting phase by targetting key units that haven yet fired.

 

I don't know what your experience has been with the Company Ancient, but I see little use of him in the lists of the forums, so I wonder if someone has tried this and discovered its not worth it, or if noone has tried it since there seems to be less use of this guy over his DW or RW variant.

 

Thoughts?

 

Speeders and Devs will always be a tradeoff that I think come down to preference, I don't think there's a clear winner. Speeders may have more wounds and higher toughness, but they don't have a 3+ armor save and the save they DO get they only get if they advance, and correct me if I'm wrong, but even if they are a vehicle they cannot shoot in their turn if they DO advance (still combing through the rules so I could be wrong). A speeder could still fire their 2 weapons down wounds, but an opening salvo of a dev squad has a greater volume of shots.

 

While it increases their cost, you always have the option to put those devs inside a drop pod or other transport which are probably the best way to find those ablative wounds.

True, they are a trade off. Neither option is superior. If nothing else, but for the fact that one is vulnerable to multi wound weapons and the other to multi shot weapons.

 

Even so, I do believe tje speeder does have a 3+ save, and although it cannot advance and shoot (unless its the flamer variety), it can move and shoot.

 

Also, since hatches are no longer a thing, you would only gain protection from the transport at the cost of staying inside not shooting. If you want to shoot, you are going to have to brave the battlefield.

 

Drop pods feel good for devs as they can get into better positions in one move. But still, they offer little protection in rhe long run. Transports better serve protecting troops that actually need to stay mobile across the board, during most of rhw game, I think

[Madmonkeyman]

it appears that the razorback and the predator are the same thing -think there is one wound in it.  so you can get a twin las razor back for 110.  or the predator version for 152with a twin las.   So a fully kitted out las pred with side las cannons is 202 with 11 wounds or you can get two las razorbacks for 220 with 20wounds and you could event transport something. Am i missing something

[Berzul]

it appears that the razorback and the predator are the same thing -think there is one wound in it.  so you can get a twin las razor back for 110.  or the predator version for 152with a twin las.   So a fully kitted out las pred with side las cannons is 202 with 11 wounds or you can get two las razorbacks for 220 with 20wounds and you could event transport something. Am i missing something

 

The Twin Lascannon Razorback will cost 115, not 110.

 

The Twin Lascannon Turret Predator will indeed cost 152, so it will be 37 points more expensive.

 

The main difference is the force organization slot used for them. Razorbacks are dedicated transports, so you need an infantry unit to go with them when you add them to the army, even if they do not go inside. The Predator takes up a Heavy Support slot.

 

But, yeah... Two LcRBs seem to be the way to go, over the LcPredator

[Madmonkeyman]

do you need infantry for dedicated transports- think you can select one for every other unit in your detachment. Doesn't specify infantry or troops.  just thought if they were ever just used as cheap armour you may not want the troop tax. 

[dtse]

Yea. For one other slot. Can be anything. You can even take a las razorback as dedicated transport for a lascannon predator lol

[PhilB]

Regarding the LasRB vs the LasPred, another thing to consider is if you're planning to move that RB up the field to get troops into position, say to take/contest a mid-field objective.

Almost 100% of the time when I use Preds they sit where I deployed them and shoot every turn for maximum effect. That's almost 100% not the case for me regarding RBs which I tend to move forward. So in terms of output vs points, if you play this way don't forget the RBs are hitting on 4s and the Preds on 3s.

I think the next list I try will be built around 2 LasPreds & 4 LasRBs with 4 tacts in them and park them up in my deployment zone for at least the first turn to fire at maximum effect.

We'll see what choices my opponent makes on how to deal with that.

[Skorp]

Regarding a 4 lascannon predator vs a 4 lascannon dev squad, assuming the dev squad is 10 marines they have similar wounds, could be wrong but the predator is going to lose effectiveness as it takes wounds just as the tac squad does (as the extra bodies are chosen to be sacrificed first) but the squad starts off with more firepower. Granted there is the difference in toughness for taking wounds which is offset by the effectiveness of 1 wound vs multiwound weapons. I think solracs suggestion of having a theme comes in. If you go all devs the opponent is wasting their mutliwound weapons while if you go all preds the opponent isnt as effective with their dakka. The more I think about it the more I love how its balanced.

 

202 for predator, 230 for devs (I think)

Edited June 30, 2017 by Skorp

[Solrac]

 

I've started constructing the unit review section and would like your input.

 

If you can post in here or send me a PM with your experiences using a unit with pros and cons so I can add it in. Please just review the unit itself as we will be covering unit combos in the next section. Please do not compare it to the 7th ed version of the unit, would like fresh eyes for 8th only.

 

Cheers guys.

 

To be fair, comparison to 7th I think is still important for context purposes.  The LSV for instance went from being junk, to being better then being made slightly worse due to changes to the main rulset.  Meanwhile combi weapons went from being a way to fill out your points to a priority.

 

I've played 3 games with 8th edition so far and I've run more squads of tactical marines in razorbacks in those 3 games than I think I ever did in 6th edition.  I have a feeling they are going to be very prevalent, maybe even a staple this edition.

 

One of the limitations of tactical squads, and and dark angels in general was the lack of high-strength and volume shooting from their basic line troops, especially for their cost.  The squad I ran this weekend (x3) was:

 

5-Man tactical (Sarge Combi-Plasma, Plasma Cannon) + Dedi Razorback (Twin Plasma Gun).

 

In the 6th/7th edition that would run you approximately 200 points (you probably wouldn't run the PC).  You'd get a one time use S7AP2, and some very low probability S7 shots.  Now that loadout is giving you at a minimum 4-S7 shots within 24" and a max of 9-S7 shots if you get the 5/6 on your D3 for the cannon.  Consider the fact that at WORST after you move you have a 50% chance of landing a cannon shot where in previous editions if you moved you'd have 0% chance of landing a shot with that cannon.  That's a huge difference.  Very excited about this.

 

Devastators also benefit from the new heavy rules.  Heavy Bolters are back imo.  4HBs are 12 shots at 4s on a move rather than 6s.  Going from 17% chance to a 50% chance is a mighty big change.

 

 

To some extent comparing 8th to 7th is good to know but doesn't help you build a list in 8th unless your favourite units got cheaper.

 

We are talking about competitive lists here so you need to be comparing say a Lascannon Devastator Squad vs a Lascannon Predator.

 

That's what I want the unit overviews to be. People at a glance will be able to quickly read some pros and cons and then check out the combos section to see if they want to build a list around those units.

 

The other reason I don't want this to heavily compare to 7th because some units that weren't good still have a negative stigma around them and in 8th a lot of the units got better and you need to highlight that and how it will help you in this edition.

 

By all means though compare the units in your discussions in this thread or any others cause it's cool to do that I'm just keeping a lot of 7th comparisons out of the actual guide unless its super warranted.

[Grand Master Raziel]

A couple observations from my first 2 games of 8th.

 

1: Artillery hurts.  I played against a friend's IG list.  His Manticore crippled my las-Pred first turn.  I really needed the las-Pred to put a hurt on his artillery.

 

2: Techmarines are good.  Giving a vehicle back D3 wounds per turn does not suck.

 

3: Apothecaries are good when used right.  Bringing back regular Tac Marines - meh.  Bringing back Ravenwing Knights - gold.

 

4: Sammael is a now the badass we always wanted him to be.  Used him in a game against a friend playing Chaos.  Singlehandedly charged and killed a squad of Raptors, a Helbrute (softened him up with the overcharged plasma cannon), and a squad of Noise Marines.  Doubling strength when charging and doing 2 wounds a pop is excellent stuff.  And the rerolls he hands out aren't bad either.

 

5: Overcharging plasma is worth it, but if you're getting rerolls, don't reroll 2's.  That is not killing your dude, so let it stand.

[dtse]

Artillery hurts but is lacklustre against a darkshroud. Playing my friend guard army withmanticore and 3 basilisks and 3 wyverns took him three turns with yarrick rerolls to kill my shroud

[Frater Cornelius]

Artillery hurts but is lacklustre against a darkshroud. Playing my friend guard army withmanticore and 3 basilisks and 3 wyverns took him three turns with yarrick rerolls to kill my shroud

 

I have a feeling that the DS will be a good inclusion in pure Primaris armies as well.

[Grand Master Raziel]

One other thing occurred to me after first glances at the Index entries: Azrael may well be the best of the named Chapter Masters.  The 4++ aura he gives is unmatched by any of the other named chapter masters.

[dtse]

Yup. Him + shroud = our guilliman

[Frater Cornelius]

Offensively and in terms of buffs Guilliman still takes it. His combat prowess is also superior. However, he does nothing to increase staying power, something Azzy and the DS do. I think this comparison is a little off. You are comparing a Chapter Master and a vehicle with a Primarch from a different Chapter. The closest comparison is Calgar, who is a popular replacement at lower points. Here I would say that Azzy takes it. Calgar may be punchy, but Marines always lacked staying power more than hitting power. Edited July 2, 2017 by Immersturm

[dtse]

I'm not directly comparing obviously you can't do that. But functionally if you want dark angels then azrael and shroud combo is our guilliman. After all if you splash guilliman into dark angels he loses a lot of force multiplying. Add a primaris lieutenantto the mix and now I think you are better albeit without the Melee prowess

[Solrac]

A couple observations from my first 2 games of 8th.

 

1: Artillery hurts.  I played against a friend's IG list.  His Manticore crippled my las-Pred first turn.  I really needed the las-Pred to put a hurt on his artillery.

 

2: Techmarines are good.  Giving a vehicle back D3 wounds per turn does not suck.

 

3: Apothecaries are good when used right.  Bringing back regular Tac Marines - meh.  Bringing back Ravenwing Knights - gold.

 

4: Sammael is a now the badass we always wanted him to be.  Used him in a game against a friend playing Chaos.  Singlehandedly charged and killed a squad of Raptors, a Helbrute (softened him up with the overcharged plasma cannon), and a squad of Noise Marines.  Doubling strength when charging and doing 2 wounds a pop is excellent stuff.  And the rerolls he hands out aren't bad either.

 

5: Overcharging plasma is worth it, but if you're getting rerolls, don't reroll 2's.  That is not killing your dude, so let it stand.

 

I think FW Mortis Dreads will now trump the Las Pred. Same amount of Lascannons, is cheaper and doesn't degrade like the Predator does. Can fit 3 in a list easy.

 

I think to combat artillery you need a Dark Talon in the list to go after the back line.

[Skorp]

Looking to make a 1000 point list and was wondering if rerolling hits (captain) vs rerolling wounds (lieutenant) is something that has been discussed? My quick mathammer suggested that captain is better against armor and the lieutenant is better against chaff. Points wise they are similar, 79 for captain and 74 for lieutenant, but captain has a lot more upgrade options and slightly better stats. Any thoughts? Edited July 2, 2017 by Skorp

[joedecook]

 

I've started constructing the unit review section and would like your input.

 

If you can post in here or send me a PM with your experiences using a unit with pros and cons so I can add it in. Please just review the unit itself as we will be covering unit combos in the next section. Please do not compare it to the 7th ed version of the unit, would like fresh eyes for 8th only.

 

Cheers guys.

 

To be fair, comparison to 7th I think is still important for context purposes.  The LSV for instance went from being junk, to being better then being made slightly worse due to changes to the main rulset.  Meanwhile combi weapons went from being a way to fill out your points to a priority.

 

I've played 3 games with 8th edition so far and I've run more squads of tactical marines in razorbacks in those 3 games than I think I ever did in 6th edition.  I have a feeling they are going to be very prevalent, maybe even a staple this edition.

 

One of the limitations of tactical squads, and and dark angels in general was the lack of high-strength and volume shooting from their basic line troops, especially for their cost.  The squad I ran this weekend (x3) was:

 

5-Man tactical (Sarge Combi-Plasma, Plasma Cannon) + Dedi Razorback (Twin Plasma Gun).

 

In the 6th/7th edition that would run you approximately 200 points (you probably wouldn't run the PC).  You'd get a one time use S7AP2, and some very low probability S7 shots.  Now that loadout is giving you at a minimum 4-S7 shots within 24" and a max of 9-S7 shots if you get the 5/6 on your D3 for the cannon.  Consider the fact that at WORST after you move you have a 50% chance of landing a cannon shot where in previous editions if you moved you'd have 0% chance of landing a shot with that cannon.  That's a huge difference.  Very excited about this.

 

Devastators also benefit from the new heavy rules.  Heavy Bolters are back imo.  4HBs are 12 shots at 4s on a move rather than 6s.  Going from 17% chance to a 50% chance is a mighty big change.

 

So, 5 guys in a razorback for 211 points......

[Solrac]

That Razorback is pretty hard to kill now though. It's common for transports to now last until the end of the game unless your opponent dedicates a fair bit of anti tank shooting to get rid of them.

[SnakeChisler]

Looking to make a 1000 point list and was wondering if rerolling hits (captain) vs rerolling wounds (lieutenant) is something that has been discussed? My quick mathammer suggested that captain is better against armor and the lieutenant is better against chaff. Points wise they are similar, 79 for captain and 74 for lieutenant, but captain has a lot more upgrade options and slightly better stats. Any thoughts?

I'd take both in a 1000 point list, reason being your re-roll to hit is more important against infantry and your re-roll to wound is exponentially more useful on multi wound weapons against multi wound models. Also 3 troops 2 HQ gives you command points and tactically these are gold.

Most used example is damage on a Las cannon had a couple of one's morph into sixes, other key use is charges.

[G8Keeper]

I finally had my first two games of 8th this weekend against Death Guard and Grey Knights using mainly greenwing (with dark talon back-up)  Here's my thoughts:

 

• Psykers go go and jump off a cliff, rules need clarifying as to whether you can cast "shooty" powers like smite into combat.  Mortal wounds are not fun.
• Int. Chaplains are a must take for anything assaulty.
• Sergeants lack attacks and just don't have the hitting power they used to (hence the chaplain comment above).  Recommend an ancient/ named character with bonuses.
• The Dark Talon is filthy but mitigated somewhat by multi-wound squads (aside from the stasis bomb), I did roll poorly for the rift cannon however.
• Death Guard with disgusting resilience even against mortal wounds causes a lot of frustration.  Shoot double what you think you need.

Overall my army performed about average, with two Tactical combat squads, an Assault squad and an Int Chaplain managing to do nothing but die vs Grey Knights in assault but kill most of the Death Guard in one huge melee, leaving only the Chaplain left standing.

 

Oh and Typhus is a swine.