8th Dark Angels Tactica and Tournament Guide (in progress)

[SnakeChisler]

So conclusion from this weekends round of games is Assault cannons are a real jack of all trades killer, they kill / wound most stuff just by sheer volume of shots.

 

Your also not left wanting if someone fetches a horde of troops and given that Marines are pretty cheap now your going to see quite a few power armour guys on the table.

 

Also if you are running them then take lots, if focused on the right sort of targets they just cleans units off objectives wholesale.

[dtse]

You can smite anyone. Closest unit

[G8Keeper]

You can smite anyone. Closest unit

Hmm the closest unit bit is interesting.  I think I recall my Chaplain who was engaged in combat being smote(?) from out of combat for 3 wounds where he wasn't the closest unit.  First game syndrome I guess, a lot to re-learn.

[Solrac]

I finally had my first two games of 8th this weekend against Death Guard and Grey Knights using mainly greenwing (with dark talon back-up)  Here's my thoughts:

 

• Psykers go go and jump off a cliff, rules need clarifying as to whether you can cast "shooty" powers like smite into combat.  Mortal wounds are not fun.
• Int. Chaplains are a must take for anything assaulty.
• Sergeants lack attacks and just don't have the hitting power they used to (hence the chaplain comment above).  Recommend an ancient/ named character with bonuses.
• The Dark Talon is filthy but mitigated somewhat by multi-wound squads (aside from the stasis bomb), I did roll poorly for the rift cannon however.
• Death Guard with disgusting resilience even against mortal wounds causes a lot of frustration.  Shoot double what you think you need.

Overall my army performed about average, with two Tactical combat squads, an Assault squad and an Int Chaplain managing to do nothing but die vs Grey Knights in assault but kill most of the Death Guard in one huge melee, leaving only the Chaplain left standing.

 

Oh and Typhus is a swine.

 

Psychic Power's aren't shooting attacks. Unless it says so in the power you can cast it within 1" of enemy models. That's the new distinction.

[G8Keeper]

 

I finally had my first two games of 8th this weekend against Death Guard and Grey Knights using mainly greenwing (with dark talon back-up)  Here's my thoughts:

 

• Psykers go go and jump off a cliff, rules need clarifying as to whether you can cast "shooty" powers like smite into combat.  Mortal wounds are not fun.
• Int. Chaplains are a must take for anything assaulty.
• Sergeants lack attacks and just don't have the hitting power they used to (hence the chaplain comment above).  Recommend an ancient/ named character with bonuses.
• The Dark Talon is filthy but mitigated somewhat by multi-wound squads (aside from the stasis bomb), I did roll poorly for the rift cannon however.
• Death Guard with disgusting resilience even against mortal wounds causes a lot of frustration.  Shoot double what you think you need.

Overall my army performed about average, with two Tactical combat squads, an Assault squad and an Int Chaplain managing to do nothing but die vs Grey Knights in assault but kill most of the Death Guard in one huge melee, leaving only the Chaplain left standing.

 

Oh and Typhus is a swine.

 

Psychic Power's aren't shooting attacks. Unless it says so in the power you can cast it within 1" of enemy models. That's the new distinction.

 

 

Yeah I guess I'm going to have to get used to not being safe in combat :)

 

I definitely made a lot of mistakes in my games, probably down to overconfidence with certain units, especially my tactical combat squads.  That being said, I do think the humble tactical squad has a place in this edition, being one of the cheaper units available to all marine players.  

 

I ran the following in game one for my troops:

 

Tactical Squad (10) - Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher

Tactical Squad (10) - Power Sword, Bolt Pistol, Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter

Scouts (5) - 4 Sniper Rifles (couldn't afford 5

 

The shooty combat squads held back with a Company Master for the re-roll 1's to hit, whilst the assaulty guys generally attempted to support the assault squad whilst being deployed to deny deepstrike behind my lines from Grey Knight Terminators.  I ended up losing heavily with the scouts being exceptional in their incompetence.

 

Game two I changed to the follwoing for troops (vs Death Guard):

 

Tactical Squad (5) - Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun

Tactical Squad (5) - Power Sword, Bolt Pistol, Plasma Gun

Tactical Squad (5) - Missile launcher

 

This was to fit some Devastators in that I wanted to try out (they spent all game trying and failing to kill poxwalkers).  The assaulty squads managed to get into a mass brawl alongside my Assault squad and Interrogator Chaplain vs two squads of Death Guard and a character, fluffing wound rolls all over the place but generally having to kill each Death Guard marine twice due to sickeningly good rolling on his 5+ icky saves.  The did prevail on the last turn with just the Interrogator Chaplain left alive.

 

What are your experiences with our Troops choices?

[SnakeChisler]

My experience is with loading them up in Razorbacks

1 Tac squad with Plasma Combi Plasma is the same cost as 1 assault cannon Razorback

I've changed my loadout to Melta and plasma pistol on Sgt seems to back up the mobile bullet wall and its nice to use my DV Sgt

[dtse]

Scouts are only useful as cheap troop filler, deployment and deepstrike area denial, and tie down. To be honest i would use scouts instead of bare tacs for chaff. They are basically almost as good. Snipers not worth it

[G8Keeper]

Scouts are only useful as cheap troop filler, deployment and deepstrike area denial, and tie down. To be honest i would use scouts instead of bare tacs for chaff. They are basically almost as good. Snipers not worth it

 

I'm not so sure about Snipers.  If I had plonked them within range of my Company Master I think they may have had some success targeting characters.  Like all things, if I could invest the points in them I think they'd be viable, it's just how many points to invest.

[SnakeChisler]

Scouts are only useful as cheap troop filler, deployment and deepstrike area denial, and tie down. To be honest i would use scouts instead of bare tacs for chaff. They are basically almost as good. Snipers not worth it

I agree

 

The sniper went from my list after about 1/2 a dozen games the Rocket did the occasional good thing but the extra points for the rifle + camo was wasted.

 

They do provide good area denial because of infiltrate and for that reason are an auto take

[dtse]

Not auto take. By something to consider. Especially if you need some troops or have spare 55 points.

[ronin_cse]

Just bumping this to make sure it stays on the front page as more feedback is always good.

 

So does anyone have any more data to share on how stuff is performing in 8th?

[Helycon]

Ezekiel has been a staple in my games so far. He's been magnificent in denying against Tyranids and done very well with Aversion and Smite. For the points, he's great. Sadly, he's slow as sin and if you ditch himin a transport, he can't do anything. I guess a drop pod is pretty great if you have more deep striking units, since he'll be dead quickly otherwise.

 

A librarian on a bike would almost certainly be useful in every scenario due to to his speed and potential to deny. So far, I've been a fan of librarians.

[Kasil]

its a small sample size, but I played three games with full ravenwing and all speeders.  8 TML, 1 vengeance, 2 darkshroud, Sammael and some other stuff.  My conclusion is that the Sammael buff is amazing and makes for a great fire base.  Anything that cant stay near him really wasn't points effective and should probably be used elsewhere.  For my next games, I am going to try 4TML, 1 vengeance, 1 darkshroud, Sammael and then some shooty deathwing dropped in plus some eversor assassins.

 

My hope is that the ravenwing will still provide a very strong gunline that cant be pinned down.  Eversors will tie up shooty items on my opponents side and the deathwing will threaten characters that hide in the back as well as bringing some small arms fire and a melee presence.

 

I am having a blast with our options though.

[ronin_cse]

Ezekiel has been a staple in my games so far. He's been magnificent in denying against Tyranids and done very well with Aversion and Smite. For the points, he's great. Sadly, he's slow as sin and if you ditch himin a transport, he can't do anything. I guess a drop pod is pretty great if you have more deep striking units, since he'll be dead quickly otherwise.

 

A librarian on a bike would almost certainly be useful in every scenario due to to his speed and potential to deny. So far, I've been a fan of librarians.

 

What makes Exekiel better than a regular Librarian for you? Just wondering because you could take a Librarian in Terminator armor to negate the slow issue...or on a bike as you mention of course.

[Helycon]

 

 

Ezekiel has been a staple in my games so far. He's been magnificent in denying against Tyranids and done very well with Aversion and Smite. For the points, he's great. Sadly, he's slow as sin and if you ditch himin a transport, he can't do anything. I guess a drop pod is pretty great if you have more deep striking units, since he'll be dead quickly otherwise.

 

A librarian on a bike would almost certainly be useful in every scenario due to to his speed and potential to deny. So far, I've been a fan of librarians.

What makes Exekiel better than a regular Librarian for you? Just wondering because you could take a Librarian in Terminator armor to negate the slow issue...or on a bike as you mention of course.

He can deny more powers and has the ability to cast all current powers if need be. His stats are better, save for the pistol compared to a storm bolter. He is actually cheaper too. He has an aura, albeit one with limited use.

[Berzul]

On the subject of Tactical Squads, would you guys give the sergeants any melee gear? I haven't had many games yet this edition, but I used to have some tactical sgts equiped with powerfists and power weapons, and I am wondering if it is viable to keep them that way, or if I should re-arm them, and just keep my tacticals out of melee combat altogether

[ronin_cse]

On the subject of Tactical Squads, would you guys give the sergeants any melee gear? I haven't had many games yet this edition, but I used to have some tactical sgts equiped with powerfists and power weapons, and I am wondering if it is viable to keep them that way, or if I should re-arm them, and just keep my tacticals out of melee combat altogether

 

There are quite a few assault heavy armies now and it is much easier to get into assault so I think it might come up a lot more often now, plus without challenges they can no longer get easily killed in melee so I don't think it's a waste. That being said power fists might be a little expensive for my tastes but I will personally be peppering in power swords in some squads

[Helycon]

If you're giving tac sarges fists, give them hammers. Same point cost for better stats.

 

But yes, chances are you'll get into melee, making power weapons and different pistols good on sarges. You can even go as far as use combis and power weapons.

[ronin_cse]

If you're giving tac sarges fists, give them hammers. Same point cost for better stats.

 

But yes, chances are you'll get into melee, making power weapons and different pistols good on sarges. You can even go as far as use combis and power weapons.

 

Ummmmm golly gee?! I hadn't noticed they were the same points, why would you ever take a PF instead in that case? 3 dmg vs D3 dmg is a HUGE difference

[Berzul]

 

On the subject of Tactical Squads, would you guys give the sergeants any melee gear? I haven't had many games yet this edition, but I used to have some tactical sgts equiped with powerfists and power weapons, and I am wondering if it is viable to keep them that way, or if I should re-arm them, and just keep my tacticals out of melee combat altogether

 

There are quite a few assault heavy armies now and it is much easier to get into assault so I think it might come up a lot more often now, plus without challenges they can no longer get easily killed in melee so I don't think it's a waste. That being said power fists might be a little expensive for my tastes but I will personally be peppering in power swords in some squads

 

 

Yeah, I was thinking the same. Just giving either chainswords or powerswords to my sgts., from now on.

[SvenONE]

So many things in this edition have really incentivized kitting out sarges.  Reasons include, but are not limited to:

• Cost effectiveness of melee weapons
• ability to charge after firing rapid fire weapons
• change to ccw/pistol
• changes to fight phase
• changes to wound allocation
• removal of challenges
• importance of inflicting wounds to cash in later in the morale phase

I would almost say that giving them strong melee gear is auto take.  I think bang for buck, a mixed-use sarge of a combi-flamer and power axe is a solid and cost effective MEQ or Horde army killer.  A power axe costs 75% less.  You also have to consider the chance to hit.  Against T4 units, an Axe will hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+ (~36%), but a fist will hit on a 4+, and wound on a 2+ (~40%).  That doesn't consider -armor modifiers of course, but TH/PF will always overkill single wound models.

 

If I know I'm facing a horde army I might go for the Axe/Combi Flamer combo but if I know I'm going to go against monsters/duelists/vehicles I'll bring the TH.  I think both are great options, it all just comes down to how many points you've got left to spend.

[Berzul]

Well, to generate some points of discussion, from the (very few) games in 8th I've played, and the (maybe way to many) batreps I've been watching, I have some things to ask:

 

• How do you guys feel about Attack Bikes? My usual loadout was a squad with Multi Meltas, but even with 4 wounds per bike, and even though firing a 4+ is not a deal beaker for me, the cost of 74 points a bike (so, 222 for a full squad) seems just way too high for this to be a cost-effective squad. Maybe Attack Bikes are still good, it's just that they have become better with the Heavy Bolters? I mean, with HBs they are just, what? 57 points? 3 of them firing 3 of these at 171 points for the squad doesn't sound that bad. Devastators would be way cheaper, and Landspeeders would be way more durable, but I think they manage a good balance of mobility, cost and firing power.
• Do flamers go with Assault Squads anymore? Deepstriking now forces you out of range for flamers on the turn you arrive. Back in 7ed, I loved to bring a 5 man squad with flamers and a combi flamer, to deepstrike near a Teleport Homer. It was cheap, disposable, and amazingly good at cleaning out light infantry. Now I feel that Deepstrike forces you to bring them with Plasma, since the turn you arrive, you are wasting 2 models in shooting, and must survive a whole turn before being able to move in for the kill with the Flamers. Would it be best to just play the Assault Marines on the table from turn 1, and move in at a regular pace?
• In terms of melee gear for sgts., what gives a better range of damage? Power Axes of Power Mauls? I mean, S5 AP-2 or S6 AP-1, which do you think, overall, would be the one to get the most wounds done, in general.

 

Just, general questions, to ponder over.

[dtse]

Attack bikes not worth it. By more normal bikers or buy something else

 

Flamers on assault squads are dead. You can't flame anyone when you drop down so that really takes the sting out. One might argue assault squads are lacklustre to be honest. Vanguard vets with double plasma pistols might be a thing if not a bit expensive.

 

I don't run my tacs geared up except maybe a pistol and a heavy weapon. I think sinking too many points into tactical strength is a mistake in this edition. I've even gone further now with my testing to not even use tacs at all but just use bolter scouts.

[Berzul]

I do see value in Assault Marines, as they have good mobility, and a full squad of 10 assault marines, with plasma pistols, and a plasma pistol and power weapon on a sgt, will go for 185 or 186 points. It used to be that Ravenwing Bikers trumped Assault Marines in everyway, but now a full squad of bikes with special weapons will go for 302 points (for 8 bikes), and even 376 if you add a Multi Melta Attack Bike to finish it up. That is over double the cost.

 

What I can see here is that, ravenwing bikers used to be so cheap, that with their mobility and firepower, there really was no point in taking the assault marines when you could have gone with bikes.

 

But costs now mean that the Assault Marines, that have decent fore power and melee ability, and good mobility across the board, have become a viable unit to take, since they can be brought along at a significantly cheaper cost.

 

I would not discard them outright. They are not amazing, and I do think ravenwing bikers are better, but I think they do have their place in the codex.... index... you know what I mean.

[Solrac]

I do see value in Assault Marines, as they have good mobility, and a full squad of 10 assault marines, with plasma pistols, and a plasma pistol and power weapon on a sgt, will go for 185 or 186 points. It used to be that Ravenwing Bikers trumped Assault Marines in everyway, but now a full squad of bikes with special weapons will go for 302 points (for 8 bikes), and even 376 if you add a Multi Melta Attack Bike to finish it up. That is over double the cost.

 

What I can see here is that, ravenwing bikers used to be so cheap, that with their mobility and firepower, there really was no point in taking the assault marines when you could have gone with bikes.

 

But costs now mean that the Assault Marines, that have decent fore power and melee ability, and good mobility across the board, have become a viable unit to take, since they can be brought along at a significantly cheaper cost.

 

I would not discard them outright. They are not amazing, and I do think ravenwing bikers are better, but I think they do have their place in the codex.... index... you know what I mean.

The difference is now bikes have a defined role. They are a fast shooty unit. In 7th people were using them in combat and were just as effective as an assault squad but more durable.

 

At 302 points you are getting 32 Bolter shots at 12" + special weapons and are still very durable. It's not that bikes are too expensive in this edition because as a shooty unit they are rightly costed. As an assault unit they are crap. People need to stop comparing bikes to assault marines.

 

Assault marines now excel at chewing up line troops in melee or holding up tanks so they can't shoot. They shouldn't be used for anything else or compared with units that are built to take apart heavy infantry in melee (Deathwing Knights or CC Terminators for example).

 

On the subject of flamers on assault marines I don't think they are dead they just don't work the same way they used to. Flamers are an amazing overwatch deterrent. Also who said flamers have to be used as an alpha in this edition? You can deep strike assault marines out of LOS and still assault something. Next turn you fall back and because they still have fly you can burn another unit. 2D6 auto hitting shots is still better than 2 plasma pistols in most circumstances.