8th Dark Angels Tactica and Tournament Guide (in progress)

[oldmanlee]

 

What are people thoughts on a speeder heavy ravenwing list as some thing a bit out side the box?

I think that regular Speeders are a bit overpriced. In theory, anyway. Javelin Speeders feom FW on the other hand are pretty solid. You one more toughness, three more wounds and same loadout as a Typhoon speeder for 18pts more I believe.

Double HF Speeder is also very good, seeing as the HF is an Assault weapon, thus the Speeder can move, advance and cover a massive distance, then shoot and autohit both of his HF for good damage.

 

Was just looking at the rules fro the Javelin good speeder but you can only take them in units of one which is a shame plus you have to take another elite slot

[Itsacon]

The Primaris Librarian as well. He is the same cost as a Librarian I believe but has the Primaris treatment of +1W/A. However, none of those fit in a transport you would usually find in a DA list. Maybe a Repulsor with 5 Hellblasters, 1 Lieutenant and a Librarian or 6 Hellblasters and 1 Lieutenant may be a solid inclusion for DA, as it offers high quality dakka.

Yeah, the lack of transport options really limits the use of primaris models. Especially the characters. Otherwise a normal captain and a lieutenant would be great to put in a droppod with a special or heavy weapons squad.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

The Primaris Librarian as well. He is the same cost as a Librarian I believe but has the Primaris treatment of +1W/A. However, none of those fit in a transport you would usually find in a DA list. Maybe a Repulsor with 5 Hellblasters, 1 Lieutenant and a Librarian or 6 Hellblasters and 1 Lieutenant may be a solid inclusion for DA, as it offers high quality dakka.

Yeah, the lack of transport options really limits the use of primaris models. Especially the characters. Otherwise a normal captain and a lieutenant would be great to put in a droppod with a special or heavy weapons squad.

Despite being in the same book as Marines (and probably DA later down the line), there is still a barrier between those two subfactions. You either slog or commit plenty of point for a whole mini strike force.

[Berzul]

I have a tactical question, not specific to Dark Angels, but rather a general purpose tactical question.

 

When building a list, do you guys take into account the number of units in your army, for the purposes of First Turn? If so, at say, 1500, 1850, and 2000 points, do you guys have range of units in mind? No more than (X) kinda of thing, I mean?

 

How do you approach list building in this sense?

[Frater Cornelius]

I have a tactical question, not specific to Dark Angels, but rather a general purpose tactical question.

 

When building a list, do you guys take into account the number of units in your army, for the purposes of First Turn? If so, at say, 1500, 1850, and 2000 points, do you guys have range of units in mind? No more than (X) kinda of thing, I mean?

 

How do you approach list building in this sense?

 

Always. A habbit from AoS. I rather take less scoring power if it means being done sooner and deciding who starts. In game where you can shoot half the opponent's army off the board that is huge. Last game, aside from other mistake, one of the biggest was taking 2 sets of 5 Intercessors as opposed to 10 in one unit and starting. That is also why tansports like the Repulsor are good. Deploying a unit of 5, 2 characters and one transport (4 units) in one drop is massive. Number of units is one of the first things I think about right after I have a general idea of what I am playing.

[march10k]

I think I broke the index.... I played 100 power level (that's the convention in my shop, 2k points is reliably between 95 and 105 points, according to the proprietor) game yesterday with a VERY mild IG list (because I had been in a few days before and saw that all the activity was intro games between vets and noobs, so no room for WAAC), and ended up playing against guilliman with primaris and custodes...ouch!  (I still won, on mission cards, but he shredded me!) So, to teach this bum a lesson, I came up with the following:

 

Vanguard detachment:

 

(HQ) Azrael

(HQ) Primaris Lieutenant

 

(E) DW Thundernators

(E) DW Knights

(E) DW Apothecary

(E) DW Apothecary

(E) DW Ancient

(E) DW Champ

 

(F) Darkshroud

 

(H) Crusader

(H) Crusader

 

5 Command Points, 99 power level

 

The Darkshroud trails the two crusaders.  Azzy and the Lieutentant walk in between the two crusaders.  That gives the crusaders 48 bolter and 24 assault cannon shots, all twinlinked and rerolling 1s to wound, with -1 to hit them and a 4++.  The terminators, when they dismount, get +1A, rerolls to hit, and reroll ones to wound.  The champion is actually a pretty decent independent operator when you have more than two units to deal with at a time.  In a 50 PL game today, he scored 2 VP off of mission cards, killed 3/5 intercessors, denied a bid at a 'defend objective 6,' and killed a primaris lieutenant...without taking a wound.  Not too shabby! 

 

If playing mission card games, the champion and apothecaries will start in reserves to be deepstruck on objectives to claim VP, while the rest will, while trying to stay together, eviscerate the enemy's fighting power to reduce his options for capping VP.  Once the stuff that is particularly dangerous (multiwound, AP-3 or better) is dealt with, the core can have units split off to cover objectives with impunity.  In my 50PL game today, I had to keep my thundernator squad and knight squad outside of 30" range of the hellblasters until they went down, after that, the melee termies surged forward, and my losses from that point on consisted of...one knight. 

 

Anyway, this is a full-blown ard boyz list, not for casual play...I only drew it up to teach a lesson to a local cheese-monger.  My "normal" PL 100 mechanized deathwing consist of two crusaders WITHOUT azzy and darkshroud, with Belial, ancient, and champion, 5 thundernators, 5 knights, and 10 deepstriking tactical termies.

 

/edit/  Just realized I could drop the two apothecaries for a dark talon...but with such a model poor army, and considering that we're talking terminators and terminator characters as the target of healing, not to mention the need for cheap expendable objective campers in mission card games...?

Edited July 16, 2017 by march10k

[dtse]

Your list doesn't have a darkshroud in it. You must have left it out in the list.

 

I think that's probably the bet way to run deathwing. Use the azrael/lieutenant/darkshroud combo which is just as good if not better than guilliman and then spam whatever else you want really

[Itsacon]

That's a surprisingly elegant list, actually. I worked it out to points, and even with most upgrades maxed out, you end up just below the standard tournament points of 2000:

 

Vanguard Detachment:

- Azrael

- DW Ancient (TH/SS)

- DW Apo

- 5x DW Terminators (1xSB/PS, 3x TH/SS, 1x CML/CF, Watcher)

- 1x RW Darkshroud (AC)

- 1x LR Crusader (SB, MM)

 

Vanguard Detachment:

- Primaris Lieutenant

- DW Champion

- DW Apo

- 5x DW Knights (Watcher)

- 1x LR Crusader (SB, MM)

 

1995 points total, 6 CPs to play with.

 

I added the Watchers both for points and to give some defence against magic (since the list lacks a libby). The DW sergeant is in sword loadout because I'm stuck in a past edition.

 

If they ever give back our CML/TH/SS termies, there's enough points left for a direct swap.

 

I think I'll have to add a second Crusader to my collection.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Itsacon

[oldmanlee]

It's a nasty deathwing list how well does it do when facing knights and lots of tanks ?

[dtse]

Yea it lacks tank killing. That is a glaring problem with pure deathwing and reinforces my opinion that for dark angels you gotta run some greenwing to be truly competitive

[Gen.Steiner]

Cyclone MLs, TL/ML dreads and Land Raiders have always been the Deathwing's go-tos for tank-hunting.

A 'competitive' Deathwing list would minimise close combat capability in favour of either a) more Terminators with Cyclones or b ) anti-tank dreads.

[Itsacon]

Thunder hammers aren't exactly bad when it comes to tank-busting either. Especially with the re-roll buffs and extra attacks.

 

Granted, you have to get close, but once you do...

[dtse]

And hitting on 4s. Makes a big difference from hitting on 3s. Anyway with small elite army and only a few tank hunting weapons a pure deathwing would struggle against some of the current tank heavy meta. Just sayin.

[march10k]

Your list doesn't have a darkshroud in it. You must have left it out in the list.

 

 

Thanks for the catch!

 

 

1995 points total, 6 CPs to play with.

 

 

 

Thanks for the tip on the second detachment, I didn't have enough elites for two vanguards when I started monkeying with this...

 

And hitting on 4s. Makes a big difference from hitting on 3s. Anyway with small elite army and only a few tank hunting weapons a pure deathwing would struggle against some of the current tank heavy meta. Just sayin.

 

Hitting on 4s with rerolls, an extra attack, and rerolling 1s to wound?  I think these thunderhammers will do fine for tank hunting.  

 

Anyway, I don't do tournaments much any more, but the meta at my shop is very split.  I feel like I need a list like this in the trunk of my car in case of certain WAAC individuals, but I also need a milder list to play against reasonable people.  The sort of people who would bring griffon mortars instead of wyverns.  

 

Yes, as some of you seen to have surmised, this is precisely a counter-Guilliman list.  A primaris captain and lieutenant pairing is totally fine, but having guilliman supporting multiple squads of hellblasters and devastators is "special circumstances."  It takes a lot to wade through that fire and punch them in the face.  Deepstriking against that sort of a firebase with anything less than massed plasma is a fool's errand, I dropped a tactical termie squad with belial in support for rerolls against a single hellblaster squad yesterday, they killed zero models and lost 4 in return.  Belial had to be sacrificed to kill them in melee, they're that dangerous to terminators.  Putting the darkshroud/azzy combo on a pair of crusaders will probably, but not certainly, get those thundernators into charge range intact.  Maybe even pick off a few models with shooting, in spite of their 2+ armor from being in cover...

Edited July 16, 2017 by march10k

[dtse]

A good guilliman gunline list will blow yours away. And I wouldn't consider the list as you describe it as Waac. Anyone who brigs primaris at this point is definitely not trying to win at all costs. Because they are not good. Now if he had 150 razorwings....that's diffeeent.

[march10k]

Pure primaris is not good, that's for sure, and I don't think I said that they were.  I wouldn't say that, I spanked them pretty hard yesterday without any real cheese (3 squads, belial, champion, 50PL).  Doing the math, you're right that a guilliman gunline is going to cripple or kill one shielded -1 to hit crusader per turn for every 4 units that guilliman is twinlinking.  I don't know, can you fit 8 hellblaster/devastator squads into range of guilliman and in cover and with good fields of fire?  I struggle to achieve cover+LOS with 6 guard infantry squads, and that's without needing to stay inside a buff bubble!

 

But with five drops versus that gunline, I'm going first.  With everything advancing, I'm set up for a second turn charge.  If I'm down one tank, or even both, I'm still getting stuck in, I've sacrificed one crusader, or both, to get into melee with the gunline.  I think this list works unless he seizes the initiative.  Anyway, the guy I have in mind for this has 10 hellblasters and 4 missile launchers in that gunline, I can handle that just fine with this list by initially ignoring his custodes.

 

I had another game today, 100PL versus suit-heavy tau.  Triptides, fusion team with 6 shield drones, plasma team with 2 shield drones, and burst cannon team, plus commander suit (one fusion blaster on it, he hasn't re-built it for 8th yet), and two units of pathfinders, one with rails. I had 2 crusaders, Belial, librarian, ancient, knights, thundernators, and 2 tactical terminator squads.  The tacticals and Belial went into reserves.  After 5 turns, he conceded.  One pathfinder, two wounded riptides, and his commander were alive, and everything except one riptide was in charge range for turn 6.   I had lost 8 termies (no compete squads) and one land raider, and my librarian took 2 wounds.  

Edited July 16, 2017 by march10k

[dtse]

Problem wth charging the gunline is you tie up 2 maybe 4 units of lucky. Next turn the fall back and there's still 80% of the firepower waiting to waist you. The spam gunline is just too strong right now

[march10k]

waiting to *waste* me.  

 

This is an extremely expensive gunline we're talking about.  It's pure antitank, nothing but hellblasters and devastators with lascannons or missile launchers.  Nobody packs all of his points into that, they still need units to go grab objectives.  At 2000 points, you won't see more than 4-6 units in the gunline, partly because of points limitations and partly because of trouble packing it all into the guilliman bubble.  And, like I said, the version of it that I'm targeting only has three units, two squads of hellblasters and one missile devastator squad.  Personally, the guy playing that list should drop his custodes squad and put another unit into the gunline.  Ideally a lascannon dev squad.  But I can reliably charge three gunline elements on turn two.  The two that get hit by a melee termie squad won't be around to fall back, and the one that gets hit by the deathwing champion and maybe another character won't have more than 2 guys left alive to fall back.  

 

Anyway, after I get done demolishing this opponent with the list in this thread, I'll repeat the feat by deepstriking four full stormtrooper squads with dual plasmas and tempestor primes to give them orders.  Maybe when he sees his list shredded by the same opponent twice, using two different armies, he'll see the light and play a less offensive list...

[dtse]

lol  the perverse logic of bringing offensive list to show the guy that he shouldnt bring offensive lists...I would just bring a more offensive list lol.  usually things escalate, not de-escalate, but whatever!  Until one of you brings 200 razorwings, I'm not offended by any of these lists.  And yes, you CAN pack way more stuff into a guilliman bubble.  He's holding back if he hasnt done that!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Ok, this is the point I have to put the mod hat and ask people to dial down a bit the "exchanges" and other trivialities.
Let's get back to constructiveness and objectivity to get the tactical discussion going to help Solrac. If we divert from the main goal, the thread becomes huge and very hard to read.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Interrogator Stobz

[BlackTriton]

I did not see a lot of talk on the forum about the company champion.

we get the same as the vanilla, but with a "blade of Caliban", a +3 st power sword... for free !?

Also, with power weapon being cheap I want to try some company veteran with power maul (see my post for pic), they look good and are relatively cheap. 
anyone has tried them yet?

[dtse]

No thanks. Points better spent elsewhere I'm afraid. Champions are just too expensive and they don't come with any buffs. Marine characters are good because they buff and are force multipliers. Occasionally some are good individually but almost always you take them for the buffs

[march10k]

Here's a thought...Azrael gunline, does it compare to the Guilliman gunline?  Smurfs get 2+ saves in cover with rerolls to hit and wound.  Dangels get rerolls to hit only, but they get the same 2+ in cover, a 4++ to back it up (reducing the need for cover, and definitely improving survivability overall), plus a -1 to hit from a darkshroud.  I think being really hard to kill might compete well against that reroll to wound. Especially if you also take a primaris lieutenant... Thoughts?

 

 

No thanks. Points better spent elsewhere I'm afraid. Champions are just too expensive and they don't come with any buffs. Marine characters are good because they buff and are force multipliers. Occasionally some are good individually but almost always you take them for the buffs

 

 

I agree...except for the first company champion, specifically in the context of a pure deathwing list.  In that setting, he's a cheap bonus maneuver unit who can take on a 5 man squad without support.  In my last game with him, he capped an objective, killed most of a primaris squad (rendering the two survivors spectators), and denied a "defend" card by chasing a primaris lieutenant off of an objective.  Not bad in a model-poor build!

 

/edit/I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that the unforgiven have a viable gunline build, LOL!

Edited July 18, 2017 by march10k

[dtse]

Azrael/shroud/lieutenant is better than guilliman as a buffer but lightly more expensive. You get the same reroll hits. Reroll wounds of 1. And way better survivability. 4+ invuln is SUPER GOOD on vehicles. Not even a mastodon has a 4+ Invuln. Just try a leviathan dread and watch it tank everything with 4+ invuln. So strong on tough vehicles. That's the only place that dreads and predators shine over devastators. They become that much harder to kill and if just s bit of the hull is within 6" you are in

[Itsacon]

What are our best alpha strike units, and what are our best leafblower units?

 

Whirlwinds are a bit underwhelming now, especially as you have to pick missiles before the game. Crusaders are a :cussload of dice, but not exacly cheap.