Imperium, Gulliman and the Tau

[chapter master 454]

Sure this has been asked but not within the span of time that relates to 8th edition and the new era we enter. We have all seen the Tiny itty bitty bit of space Tau occupy (oh boy, one warp of a neighbourhood they picked) but we haven't touched on one difference between back then and now then, Gulliman. So previously we all dismiss any chance of the Tau being friends with us (or even a truce) because the Inquisition would cyclone torpedo any and all who dared however as now with Gulliman running the show and being the biggest cheese there is with no question, what is Gulliman's ideas or thoughts on the Tau? If none present what are our speculations since he has shown a rather big drive towards getting things united.

 

I know his main concern is getting the imperium far side back under control right now but if he begins to deal with Tau, how do we believe he will approach it? After all, he pacified Ultramar back into order with words rather than fire and blade and seems open to trying to get things fixed with minimal bloodshed.

 

Will we see Gulliman tell the Inquisition to stop being a bunch of hypocritical grot hosers and give Tau a chance to join the Imperium (under the idea 'We both fight for a greater good') or will G man just do his thing and when he gets there have matt ward write a side note piece of fluff in the corner of 9th edition that says G man just wiped them out from existence all at once with no effort.

[the jeske]

the fau do not have goddess tier beauties that can resurect G-man. so unlike with the eldar, so the best thing that can happen here is a short time non agression pact.

[Bryan Blaire]

It's an interesting question, CM454, but the "integration" of the Tau requires a factor that is not currently accounted for in your discussion: Tau willingness to set aside their own rule and accept the domination of the Imperium.

 

Joining with the Imperium isn't going to happen any other way, whether Guilliman is effectively Emperor or not. The Imperium is not going to become a daughter state of the Tau Empire, so the converse would have to happen. If the Tau aren't willing to become part of the Imperium, then there will be no "integration."

[DogWelder]

The Ultramarines and the Tau have actually had a bit of a complex relationship. Due to the extremely close proximity between the Tau Empire and Ultramar, there have been several encounters between the two. Directly hostile actions from the Tau were met with force and crushed (Augura, Zeist, Nimbosa etc.) but the Ultramarines and the Tau have been more open than most to negotiating with them. For example:

 

On Dalyth Cato Sicarius and Jorus Numitor, then leading the 8th Company, negotiated a withdrawal of Ultramarines from the planet with Farsight in order to deal with the Tyranid invasion.

 

On Pavonis, Uriel Ventris let the Tau evacuate their civilians and their forces unmolested (albeit after bluffing about Exterminatus if they remained).

 

Even Marneus Calgar temporarily formed an alliance with the Tau to fight the Tyranids and afterwards allowed them to leave peacefully out of respect for their agreement.

 

For their part, the Tau have never actually launched a military campaign into Ultramar itself despite the fact that they have a clear path to the empire. 

 

[Felix Antipodes]

This is a really interesting question and could go several ways. As pointed out above, the Ultramarines have a history of pragmatism where the Tau are concerned. Where it gets messy is with the return of Guilliman. Everything I've read about the Primarchs shows them as unrelentingly xenophobic IAW the Emperor's plan for humanity. This makes it difficult to see him doing any sort of deal with a Xenos race. Having said that, Guilliman has been surprisingly flexible and pragmatic since his return. I think it will come down to how much of a threat he feels they are to his beloved Ultramar.

[helterskelter]

This is a really interesting question and could go several ways. As pointed out above, the Ultramarines have a history of pragmatism where the Tau are concerned. Where it gets messy is with the return of Guilliman. Everything I've read about the Primarchs shows them as unrelentingly xenophobic IAW the Emperor's plan for humanity. This makes it difficult to see him doing any sort of deal with a Xenos race.

This is not strictly true.

Horus had to back down vs. The Kinebrach(sp?) Because with his resources at the time they were superior and he had to negotiate until Erebus.

Fulgrim was willing to talk to the Eldar until they saw the blade of Laer.

Alpharius/Omegon actually listened and kind of went along with the Cabal for a period and then they pushed the wrong buttons with Omegon.

 

And to bring it to 40k, Guilliman let the eldar that brought him back to life, live.

 

So as far as the Tau are concerned if they don't push the wrong buttons Guilliman won't have to attempt full exterminatus. Which I think would be bad for the imperium anyway because they're not just fighting Tau, they're fighting Tau, Vespid, Kroot, Demiurg and however many other races at the same time and that would require the resources of Legions (plural)

[Kinstryfe]

All filthy xenos scum must die for mankind to claim the galaxy as their birthright.

 

That being said, when you have hordes or orks, multiple hive fleets, tomb worlds full of robots, and pirates who literally want to eat your citizens souls, the blue space communists rank really low on the threat scale. Since destroying them would likely require a protracted crusade and high volume of military resources, I imagine claiming a tepid nonaggression deal is preferable. We must kill the xenos, but we can kill them when it best suits us.

[Marshal Rohr]

Now that Guilliman has returned and Primaris Marines are organized into major legion sized components the Tau are more existentially threatened than at any point in their history.

[Charlo]

Guilliman is of a unique mindset compared to all other denizens of the current 40k universe - The Imperial Truth that his Father strove for.

 

The truth is basically:

• Mankind owns the stars
• Further mankind through technological mastery to achieve the above
• Way of life based upon reason, science and secular progress over the older traditions of religion, superstition and faith

You'll notice that only the first of those is true in the current iteration of the Imperium.

 

But how do Xenos fit into this? Well - in the 30k's Imperium Xenos can be permitted to live within it, but they do so under the heel of the imperium. They must know that they are not humanity and are ruled by it, but must contribute to the betterment of the imperium etc Not slaves as such but just another cog in the machine.

 

Getting the Tau on side would be a boon for the imperium and letting Cawl get his hands on thier tech would no doubt breed some horrific weapons of war, problem is doing all of this will make a lot of people angry and requires the following to agree

• Inquisition will hate it and Guilliman will have to control them - which is a LOT of effort.
• Adeptus Mechanicus will hate it as they (well most of them) do not want to integrate Xeno tech into humanities grand technologies and believe that they should not invent anything. Tau tech will also massively step on their toes and could lead to a war between Mars and Terra.
• The Tau's entire philosophy would need to be discarded - sure we could all fight for our own versions of the greater good, but the Imperium see's itself as superior and the Tau certainly don't want to be overtaken or be second class citizens in their own empire.

Basically, while the Tau are a "problem" as always the aren't as HUGE a threat as Hive Fleets, Giant WAAAAAAGH!s or the servants of Chaos.

[chapter master 454]

One of the only things I don't like about 40k but also part of the reason most likely I like it: the backwards nature of the mechanicus and inquisition. I never liked the Inquisition at all in anyway (even lore wise) and are just a bunch of self corrupted power nuts who to be honest at so far up their own rear they make Sicarius look humble. The mechanicus and their 'don't invent' silliness always annoyed me along with how they horde tech. Gulliman also can bring down the Inquisition I would wager with barely a thought but it would take resources that he would currently use elsewhere. They are low on the 'to do' list.

 

I would think it interesting however, a divide in the Imperium not because of chaos but in the sense of 'Purists' vs. 'Union' that divides it, Gulliman leading Union while the Inquisition goes rouge and finds followers in those who think they should be 'pure' with no Xenos and become a rogue force who still fight chaos but do come to blows regularly trying to topple the 'corrupted' Union. Might lead to an interesting further read into the Inquisition as some may not side with the pure side but instead keep with the Union, seeing it a great chance to exploit Xenos for further gains (more personal under the guise of being for the imperium).

[Honda]

Alpharius/Omegon actually listened and kind of went along with the Cabal for a period and then they pushed the wrong buttons with Omegon.

 

 

I wasn't aware of this. Which book was this in? For the AL, I've only read "Legion" and "Praetorian of Dorn".

[helterskelter]

 

Alpharius/Omegon actually listened and kind of went along with the Cabal for a period and then they pushed the wrong buttons with Omegon.

 

I wasn't aware of this. Which book was this in? For the AL, I've only read "Legion" and "Praetorian of Dorn".

I think it's Deliverance lost. Back end of the novel.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

Alpharius/Omegon actually listened and kind of went along with the Cabal for a period and then they pushed the wrong buttons with Omegon.

 

I wasn't aware of this. Which book was this in? For the AL, I've only read "Legion" and "Praetorian of Dorn".

I think it's Deliverance lost. Back end of the novel.

It is indeed in Deliverance Lost. An airlock is involved.

[Joe]

I doubt the Tau would enter the Imperium willingly, assuming the later could overcome the millennia of ingrained xenophobia and superstition. The Tau were capable of chewing up a significant part of the Imperium's war machine during the Damocles Crusade, and that's for what can be considered a 'minor' nation on the fringes of Imperial space. The Tau may not be the strongest faction, nor the largest, but they are certainly capable of holding their own against the Imperium for a time. I'd argue they've probably found themselves in a stronger position in the aftermath of the Damocles Crusade, given the tactical insights they'll have gained over the Imperium, further technological developments and so on.

 

Interestingly, the only thing that's stopping the Tau becoming a significant threat to the Imperial hegemony is their incapacity to access the Warp in the same manner that other species do. They share this disadvantage with the Q'Orl, who are a far greater threat to the Imperium based upon the scale of their empire (second largest galactic empire alongside the Imperium) and their proximity to Holy Terra. It's entirely possible that we'll see the Tau develop a more reliable (and efficient) means of traversing the galaxy in the future, either that or we'll see the Q'Orl join the fray as a new faction. I'm not sure how they'd distinguish them from the Tyranids, though, unless they went out of their way to make them far more insectoid/arthropoid.

[Ishagu]

Seeing as a big Tau expansion vanished, it would be pretty cool to have Guilliman's armies simply destroy the Tau.

The Imperium would think they've exterminated the species, but an expansion sphere would crop up someplace else and entrench.

 

Are the Q'Orl still cannon?

Edited June 21, 2017 by Ishagu

[DogWelder]

Part of me wants to see a full on war between the Tau and the Ultramarines again.

 

See what wins; the strategic mind of Guilliman or that of Puretide?

[chapter master 454]

Part of me wants to see a full on war between the Tau and the Ultramarines again.

 

See what wins; the strategic mind of Guilliman or that of Puretide?

 

-Meanwhile in the darkest region of lore creation. HE sits, his acts so evil he is only referred to as him-

"We have reports in for the latest figures regarding the lore of the ultramarines. Things seem to be...going south"

"Why? They are the most perfect chapter ever conceived. They do everything right, everyone should love them because nothing is ever wrong"

"Apparently they have the depth of a dried puddle and have nothing unique about them except that they never fail"

"Impossible, infallible overpowered heroes who are written with no faults are surely the best idea...hmm. I already disposed of the nasty, fallible Sicarius back on Medusa V...how can I get people to realise how good the ultramarines truly are...we need something"

"Maybe another event similar to the 1st company wipe out?"

"AND MAKE THEM SEEM FALLIBLE. Make them seem unable to always win with zero losses? Insanity, you are asking for something possibly stupid. Ultramarines never lose. Wait, what about those horrible little flecks of anime in this game? How dare they even think about copying my centurion suit idea"

"but they ha-"

"ENOUGH. I will make everyone see how good the Ultramarines are by having them destroy those horrible things once and for all. Now it will be Gulliman but will it be by himself with nothing but a paper clip and some vague words of encouragement or see if I can make some sort of campaign from this?...Hmmm no, just have Cato Sicarius go in with the 2nd company and wipe them out as if there were nothing. Gulliman still needs to continue his unstoppable crusade of awesome non-stop winning"

 

 

Sorry, had to take the scheduled stab at he who will not be named.

 

To be fair, I don't think it would require assimilation of ether into the other. More of an agreed alliance where they cease violence against each other. Possibly secure it by political intrigue with Gulliman acting as if they are giving the Tau some space to grow (by allowing them some planets) but in truth he is doing this to learn them and slowly indoctrinate them into the imperial belief by implications of the emperor being their greeater good. Results would be interesting, possibly the Tau having internal conflict of 'old good' vs 'new good'.

Not sure but I think it is high time some actual reason for the 2 factions not to fight alongside each other be properly established other than 'this planet is mine. No mine. No it's mine' and other than 'foul Xenos scum'.

Quick reminder: Ogryns, Ratlings, Culexus (Pariahs, anyone remember those?) and psykers (of all flavours) are to some degree accepted into the Imperium.

 

Guess I am of a rather small sect of people that believe the Tau should be allies, not enemies. I find it extremely counter productive for the Imperium to target the Tau, I would think Gulliman, a tactical genius, would see the chance of some sort of ally. For once, a Xenos race that doesn't open fire the moment you approach and can be reasoned with to an extent.

 

Just hope Tau get a fair shake when push comes to shove

[DogWelder]

 

Part of me wants to see a full on war between the Tau and the Ultramarines again.

 

See what wins; the strategic mind of Guilliman or that of Puretide?

Hmmm no, just have Cato Sicarius go in with the 2nd company and wipe them out as if there were nothing. Gulliman still needs to continue his unstoppable crusade of awesome non-stop winning"

 

 

 

Ahem....The Zeist Campaign?

 

"Marneus Calgar dispatched the Ultramarines 2nd company to the Zeist Sector to draw a line through which the Tau would not be able to pass. Also, Calgar sent requests to other nearby chapters for further assistance.

When the Ultramarines arrived, they found numerous Imperial worlds abandoned and other heavily fortified to defend against the Tau lightning raids. Cato Sicarius, Captain of the 2nd company, attacked the Forge World Praetonis V to break the Tau assault there and used this momentum to begin pushing the Tau back. Sicarius used the same tactics as the Tau, which were the most ideal tactics for Space Marines, rapid lightning strikes on weak positions to destabilise more heavily defended ones. Quickly, the Tau expansion slowed and then stopped under the assaults. Eventually only the world of Augura remained in Tau hands.

By this time, the Ultramarines were no longer the only Space Marine forces in the assault. Forces from the Night Watch, Halo Dragons, Silver Skulls, Sable Swords, Crimson Fists, Iron Lords, Aurora Chapter, Eagle Warriors and the Knights of the Raven, as well as many others, had all joined the Ultramarines in the attack on Augura. Despite the advanced technology, Battlesuits and weaponry, the Tau had no hope for defeating such a huge combined force of Space Marines. Augura's fortresses, shipyards and weapons factories were destroyed and the Tau expansion ended with the Tau falling back to protect more secure territory."

 

Although to be fair, Shadowsun used this accumulation of Imperial forces to capture some undefended planets elsewhere.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Part of me wants to see a full on war between the Tau and the Ultramarines again.

 

See what wins; the strategic mind of Guilliman or that of Puretide?

-Meanwhile in the darkest region of lore creation. HE sits, his acts so evil he is only referred to as him-

"We have reports in for the latest figures regarding the lore of the ultramarines. Things seem to be...going south"

"Why? They are the most perfect chapter ever conceived. They do everything right, everyone should love them because nothing is ever wrong"

"Apparently they have the depth of a dried puddle and have nothing unique about them except that they never fail"

"Impossible, infallible overpowered heroes who are written with no faults are surely the best idea...hmm. I already disposed of the nasty, fallible Sicarius back on Medusa V...how can I get people to realise how good the ultramarines truly are...we need something"

"Maybe another event similar to the 1st company wipe out?"

"AND MAKE THEM SEEM FALLIBLE. Make them seem unable to always win with zero losses? Insanity, you are asking for something possibly stupid. Ultramarines never lose. Wait, what about those horrible little flecks of anime in this game? How dare they even think about copying my centurion suit idea"

"but they ha-"

"ENOUGH. I will make everyone see how good the Ultramarines are by having them destroy those horrible things once and for all. Now it will be Gulliman but will it be by himself with nothing but a paper clip and some vague words of encouragement or see if I can make some sort of campaign from this?...Hmmm no, just have Cato Sicarius go in with the 2nd company and wipe them out as if there were nothing. Gulliman still needs to continue his unstoppable crusade of awesome non-stop winning"

 

 

Sorry, had to take the scheduled stab at he who will not be named.

 

To be fair, I don't think it would require assimilation of ether into the other. More of an agreed alliance where they cease violence against each other. Possibly secure it by political intrigue with Gulliman acting as if they are giving the Tau some space to grow (by allowing them some planets) but in truth he is doing this to learn them and slowly indoctrinate them into the imperial belief by implications of the emperor being their greeater good. Results would be interesting, possibly the Tau having internal conflict of 'old good' vs 'new good'.

Not sure but I think it is high time some actual reason for the 2 factions not to fight alongside each other be properly established other than 'this planet is mine. No mine. No it's mine' and other than 'foul Xenos scum'.

Quick reminder: Ogryns, Ratlings, Culexus (Pariahs, anyone remember those?) and psykers (of all flavours) are to some degree accepted into the Imperium.

 

Guess I am of a rather small sect of people that believe the Tau should be allies, not enemies. I find it extremely counter productive for the Imperium to target the Tau, I would think Gulliman, a tactical genius, would see the chance of some sort of ally. For once, a Xenos race that doesn't open fire the moment you approach and can be reasoned with to an extent.

 

Just hope Tau get a fair shake when push comes to shove

You mean like how they broke their ceasefire with the Imperium the first time? The Imperium was, during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, winning, then they had to call off their forces because other more threatening things were happening.

 

They made a ceasefire that the tau broke once they decided the Imperium was distracted enough.

 

They don't sound like the ideal people I would turn into allies.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

There is a reason humans don't like Xenos. It's because from the first day they have continuously betrayed and enslaved humanity.

[DogWelder]

There is a reason humans don't like Xenos. It's because from the first day they have continuously betrayed and enslaved humanity.

 

I see someone is badmouthing the Lord Commander of the Imperium's girlfriend lol

[Arkangilos]

Well I mean on individual levels I'm sure exceptions can be made ;)

 

But I'm sure as soon as the crisis is over (should it ever be over) she would try and kill him :p

Edited June 21, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Corsovitt]

What if Guilliman was to embed Primaris Marines with those Inquisitors, High Lords, Cardinals and other high ranking and hardline Imperial Officials who would be against a policy change in regards to working with xenos. 

 

What if after a few decades of these Primaris becoming embedded with the above institutions a pre registered order was given to all Primaris Marines - An Order 66 as it were, toppling those elements of the Imperium of Man which go against the secular goals which Guilliman and his brothers originally crusaded for. 

 

Rather than a long drawn out bloody civil war he would incite a short bloody coup. 

 

I know this is not what will happen, nor likely that its a path that Guilliman would take but damn it would be interesting... 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Corsovitt

[DogWelder]

What if Guilliman was to embed Primaris Marines with those Inquisitors, High Lords, Cardinals and other high ranking and hardline Imperial Officials who would be against a policy change in regards to working with xenos. 

 

What if after a few decades of these Primaris becoming embedded with the above institutions a pre registered order was given to all Primaris Marines - An Order 66 as it were, toppling those elements of the Imperium of Man which go against the secular goals which Guilliman and his brothers originally crusaded for. 

 

Rather than a long drawn out bloody civil war he would incite a short bloody coup. 

 

I know this is not what will happen, nor likely that its a path that Guilliman would take but damn it would be interesting... 

 

"In the name of the God Emperor of man, you are under arrest Lord Commander"

 

"...are you threatening me, Lord Inquisitor?"

 

"The Imperium will decide your fate"

 

"I am the Imperium"

 

"Not yet"

 

"...it's treason then"

 

*spinning in midair while cutting down Inquisitors*

Edited June 21, 2017 by Caius Tadius

[Urriak Urruk]

I just want to add a third cog in the wheel here... recently Guilliman has been sort-of sympathetic with xenos, with his weird arrangement with the Ynnari. It wouldn't be very surprising if Guilliman is already operating with a secret non-aggression pact with the Craftworld Eldar and Ynnari.

 

So... would Guilliman replicate this with the Tau? There is almost no reason not to from his perspective. He doesn't have the resources to attack the Tau as he's mostly relieving Imperial worlds already under attack.

 

Problem is, there's no reason for the Tau to sign up for this. They are expanding, why would they want a non-aggression pact?

 

Of course, looking at the Great Rift map, it's almost more likely that the Tau will be fighting the Necrons, not the Imperium.