Emperor's Children/Noise Marine Tactica

[leth]

Hello Everyone, with the new edition dropping I figured I would bust out and fix up my Noise Marines to go along with my Nurgle.

The playing field has diversified, 8th edition is such a huge shift that any attempt to deal with all of it at once will descend into nothingness as we try to tackle too many topics at once. So, I will begin with my general thoughts on 8th edition before moving on to Noise Marine Specific Units.

General 8th edition Strategies and Adjustments

Great topic on army construction from another thread in here.
http://www.bolterand...my-building-8e/

Hitting and Wounding in 8th Edition

The following charts showcase how we need to re-evaluate weapons going forward.

Lets look at how AP increases the chance of causing a wound.

You can combine almost any of the stats above to get an idea of the chance of any given shoot hurting any given target.

One important thing to remember in this edition is that you ADD or SUBTRACT from a roll. So when you roll a 5 and get plus one it becomes a 6 and triggers any 6+ abilities. Meanwhile if you roll a 6 with -1 you don't trigger any effects that occur on a 6+.

Multi-Damage Weapons

So with the introduction of multi-damage weapons and increased number of multi-wound models it is important to think about how these weapons apply to a variety of targets. To demonstrate how certain weapons are more effective I am going to pretend that each weapon will get 6 rolls on the damage table to make the math easier

D3: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3 = 12

D6: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 = 21

So here we can see against larger targets the D3 is going to be slightly more effective than the D6 when you have twice as many shoots(which most D3 weapons will have for the points)

However lets look at firing at something with two wounds.

D3: 66% chance to kill

D6: 87% chance to kill

Now Three Wounds

D3: 33% chance to kill

D6: 66% chance to kill

So we can see how the niche for D6 weapons works when factoring in their increased price. If it has 3+ wounds then d6 weapons are the way to go. However if it has 2 wounds you probably would be fine going with D3 weapons. Attrition targets are just a crap shoot anyway since they are so close.

Hits/Wounds, Re-Rolls, and Modifiers

Because we have moved to a strict to hit or too wound system the new system of modifiers will take awhile for people to get used to. One of the biggest changes is that all modifiers are TO THE ROLLS. It used to be that a model might get -1 BS or set to a fixed BS. Now it says "Hit on a 4+, and X ability subtracts one from your roll".

In many situations it probably wont matter, where it does matter is when abilities trigger off of specific rolls or above a specific roll. If an enemy has an ability that triggers off of 6+ to hit and they get -1, they can never trigger that ability. Conversely if they get +1 to hit the ability triggers on a 5+. If an enemy ability triggers on exactly 6 and they get +1 to hit, it will now only trigger on a 5. It is very important now to know if an ability triggers on a specific roll or above/below a certain roll.

What is important to remember is that all re-rolls occur BEFORE modifiers. Where this gets really important is the interaction with many of the standard Aura Abilities and things, like overcharged plasma, that trigger on a specific roll.

Example - Plasmagun has -1 to hit against a flier. However he is within an aura that allows him to re-roll 1s. In this case he would ONLY be allowed to re-roll natural 1s as a result of the ability. However if he decided to overcharge any model that rolled a two would now die because after modifications it became a 1 and this is post re-rolls. In addition GW has clarified that a roll can not go below 1, so any 1s following the re-roll would also result in a dead overcharged marine.

Finally if those plasmaguns get a +1, they can never overheat while still getting to take advantage of their re-rolls.

All of this is important to keep in mind when thinking about how unit abilities stack and apply.

Wargear and equipping models

One of the most significant changes in 8th edition is the clear separation of wargear from "models"(which I will refer to as chassis from now on). Because any particular weapon is always priced the same it is simply a matter of comparing the "chassis" that will bring that weapon to the table(for ranged weapons). When calculating out the fire power it is important that we factor in all of the advantages and disadvantages of that particular "Chassis" for that particular weapon.

For Example: Land Speeder with Multi-Melta versus Land Speeder Storm with Multi-Melta

Land Speeder with Multi-Melta = 107

Land Speeder Storm with Multi-Melta = 107

Storm - +2 Movement, +1 Wound, -1 Save, +5 Transport Capacity

In this situation there is no reason to ever take a land speeder over a storm if you want to bring a multi-melta to the table. The Land Speeder storm is so much better at the same price point.

Now lets factor in that the Land Speeder can get a second Multi Melta shot for an extra 27 Points.

107 + 27 = 134/2 = 67 points per multi-melta shot

If I am trying to bring Multi-Meltas to the table then I save 30 points per shot by taking the land speeder over the storm. Is the additional +2 movement, +1 Wound, etc worth the additional 30 points per multi melta shot?

Obviously this is over simplified but you get the idea.

With how many points are frontloaded on the chassis you will find that expensive models will tend to benefit from maximizing the number of weapons they can bring.

Lets do the Same comparison for a Predator(151) and a Razorback(115) with twin lascannons

A Predator has +1 Wound and loses out on 6 carry capacity.

So just taking the turret weapon on a Predator is NEVER worth it as you are effectively paying 35 points for +1 wound -6 transport capacity.

Now lets look at a 4 lascannons predator. That is 200 points compared to two razorbacks 230. Once again we see that the predator is losing out as the razorbacks get effectively 9 wounds and 12 transport capacity for 30 points. Not a good buy Why would I ever take a predator over a Razorback?

Moving and Firing Heavy Weapons

Well that is where the genius of the -1 to hit when moving kicks in. Razorbacks tend to want to move and advance to fullfill their role, meaning they will be requiring a 4+ to hit a majority of the time while your predator is sitting still most of the game.

When looking at the cost of weapons for consider the effective cost when getting a -1 to fire any weapon.

It basically boils down like this approximately(these are gonna be off by a few % but the idea is there)

3+ instead of 2+ = +25% to weapon Cost

4+ Instead of 3+ = +33% to weapon Cost

5+ instead of 4+ = +50% to weapon Cost

6+ instead of 5+ = +100% to Weapon Cost

So, A razorback that is moving to match the firepower of a predator that is sitting still requires effectively 267 points in razorbacks. A large part of the predators upfront cost factors in that it can sit still and shoot without losing out on any effectiveness. Basically the worse your enemy makes you shoot, the more costly any penalty to hit becomes. This is super important to consider when firing combi-weapons.

Conclusions

This edition is one of the first times we can directly calculate how much the chassis costs compared to other units, and how much we are paying to bring something on a particular platform. What I have discussed above translates beyond just vehicles, but applies to any platform. For units that we expect to be moving you want to keep your heavy weapons cheap, for units you expect to sit still/survive or that can ignore the negatives for heavy weapons you want to invest in more expensive wargear upgrades since the opportunity cost is lowest.

*This does not apply the same for melee weapons as that is much more dependent on an individual units stats but we can do similar calculations based on the chassis for melee weapons.

Command Points

A battle forged army starts with 3. Most 2k lists I see range between 9 and 12 CMD points

We currently have three options for CMD points with more down the line that are tied to specific factions (Not going to talk about the Maelstrom one)

1: Re-roll

2: Auto Pass Morale

2. Counter-Offensive

When it comes to spending CP there is an entire mini game involved in when and where to use them. It is important to ratio them out, while at the same time knowing when it is important to burn them.

Re-Roll

This is probably the most common one you will see people use as there are many games where a re-roll is the difference between victory and defeat. Knowing when to use these re-rolls is going to be crucial to success. Knowing when a re-roll will increase the success rate or if you are just throwing it away is important.

2+ - 87%

3+ - 66%

4+ - 50%

5+ - 33%

6+ - 17%

So you have to decide when the change to chance of success is worth it and likely to pay off. It will be 100% situational and learning this will be a powerful skill to have. One of the mistakes I see people making is planning around using CMD points. CMD points are too limited to plan around using them, any strategy that relies on a limited unreliable resource to succeed is going to have problems from the get go. Plan around never needing to use them and then use them when you need to rather than planning on using them when you might run out.

Auto Pass Morale

When you want to use this is when a unit is nearly guaranteed to be wiped out as a result of a battleshock test, especially for Necrons or IG if your Commisar is not around.

Example: 50 man Conscript squad, LD 4. If I kill 28 Conscripts the minimum they can roll is 29. 29-4 is 25. Unless you have a commissar in range that squad will automatically disappear without me wasting any more firepower on it. This is a situation where it is potentially worth using the two CMD points.

However this is where part of the strategy comes in. Lets say for example I only kill 20 of the 50 conscripts. Now he will be getting a minimum of 21, losing 17 models taking the squad down to 13. Is it worth it for him to use the CP now? Probably not. Much of this is situation and army dependent and so baiting out those CMD points is going to be important. What if I kill 28 conscripts from two squads? Now if they dont use 2 CP they will lose both instead of just one.

Forcing these decisions is where battle shock will be important.

Counter Offensive

Now this one is huge and will require a lot of tactical practice to get right. The ability to interrupt a charge sequence not only forces your opponent to be careful in how they activate their charging units, even if you dont actually plan to use your CP to interrupt, it also provides the ability to wipe out certain enemies before they can swing. It makes charging a CC unit risky unless you activate that unit first. Maybe you can wipe out that character before he gets to swing, removing those buffs from the units surrounding it. Lots of options and once again it will require a situational awareness and experience with playing the game.

Army Defense (Bubble Wrap)

While the need to "bubble wrap" is not new to 8th edition how and what you need to bubble wrap against has changed. With the removal of scatter, reliable deep strikes, and an exclusion zone the nature of bubble wraps has split into two distinct categories. Assault Defense and Deep Strike Defense. Both are very different and the types of units that will excel will vary.

Assault Defense

The purpose of Assault Defense is for the purpose of protecting your more vulnerable units from units that are powerful in melee that can either lock up your units; forcing them to fall back and losing out on shooting, or getting killed in assault. These are units you want to basically block all avenues of advance from any specific direction. One of the most common units talked about for this purpose are conscripts. They are cheap, they can be in large units(making it easy to take advantage of aura buffs), and they mitigate leadership to some extent. Another example is pox walkers, while more expensive than conscripts their inherent durability and lack of needing auras for leadership mitigation really help justify their cost. Many of these units also serve the dual purpose of being large in number and thus good at taking objectives. They also lose next to nothing for falling back since their firepower is not really relevant compared to what they are protecting.

A few important things to be aware of when taking a unit for Assault Defense - Be careful of making a gap too large where the enemy can slide through to charge one of the units you are protecting. This is where positioning is important. With the removal of blast weapons their is not as much of a reason to maximize the distance between your models. However, you dont want to be too close together as it might be possible to remove yourself from combat as a result of casualties negating the need to fall back.

Another potential type of Assault defense unit is a durable CC unit that can take a hit and strike back. This is a unit that your opponent will have to think twice about charging, if you use your CMD points to interrupt his charge order and strike back with this unit before he can go it will definitely blunt his charge.

Deep Strike Defense

Whereas in previous editions the units that were good at Assault defense also served the dual purpose of deep strike defense in this edition they still can but it is not an efficient method of doing so. Many of the current power builds rely on being able to deep strike in close with power units and hit hard without a chance to return the favor. Scion drop lists are an excellent example. With many deep strike armies keeping their unit count down to go first it can be difficult to create the exclusion area necessary to protect your army from first turn deep strikes without having to position yourself poorly within your deployment zone which in and of itself is a victory. This is where Deep Strike Defense units come in.

To protect from deep strike you need to maximize area denial using the inherent 9 inch push back. For deep strike defense the optimal unit is something cheap, disposable, and fast preferably with some sort of scout move. The second thing to factor in is that a larger base drastically increases the area that can be denied with a single model.

Lets use 25mm base as the comparison size. 32mm base and a 60mm base

25mm base - 283 square inches

32mm base - 291 square Inches - 3% increase

60mm base - 326 square inches - 15% increase in area covered

So we can see that a single model on a 60mm base will deny 15% more area than a 25mm single model. With the limitation that a unit has to be within 2 inches each additional base added will provide a minimal additional amount of coverage

So how do we bring this all together? Well The unit you are protecting will have its own 9 inch bubble. To protect your army a deepstrike defense unit can be over 10 inches away and still provide all of the defense necessary. This effectively places the enemy over 26-29 inches away from their ideal targets. To perform this role they need to get into position either before the turn begins or within the first turn. Even if they die after this first turn they have bought enough time for your slower assault defense units to get into position and provide the same role with more wounds. In addition they can re position more effectively to cover your army as it moves. Simply by being further from the center of your army the distance they have to travel will be much higher to provide the same protections. They might need to protect the front of your army, but as you advance they now need to provide deep strike coverage to the back.

So any unit that has a scout move or alternate deployment types is ideal for this role, however multiple additional units can provide the role over the course of the game.

Units that are good for this are currently limited for chaos, however I expect with the release of renegades next week we will get access to corrupted scout sentinels.

Edited August 7, 2017 by leth

[leth]

Updates in Progress*

 

Emperor's Children Legion Specific Rules

 

So we have seen so far that we get Always strike first as a default ability for the entire army.  Very powerful.  This is just a pure buff to the typical shooting noise marine units as well as assault based units.  However the biggest issue is that other legion traits allow our specific units to gain more specialized benefits, especially with the emperors children strategem being meh at best.

 

Powers and Stratagems

 

Psychic Power

 

Wow, the psychic power is insanely good. While it is weaker against multi wound weapons smite spam and related mortal wounds are a thing.  Getting to ignore 1/3 of those? Yes please.  Personally I find the powers very balanced and adding to survivability just with an emphasis on different kinds of weapons. 

 

Strategems

 

Double shooting phase

 

Noise Marines

 

So, noise marines form the core of the army. At 15 points they are actually pretty reasonable for what is essentially a veteran statline. Each model is armed with a bolter and bolt pistol, and two attacks base. They are a STEAL once you see their special ability   

 

Music of the Apocalypse: When slain you get to make a shooting attack or throw a grenade. Super powerful and I have dissuaded people from targeting them over someone else as a result of this ability/taking pot shots at the unit to wittle them down. The other important thing to remember is that the models are not removed until the END of that units activation.  So keep this in mind when checking range for things like Aura ranges and the like.  You might be in that re-roll range from a daemon prince. 

 

This is a super powerful ability and when used properly can make a huge difference over the course of the game.  It can help finish off enemy units, take out those objective takers if he tries to kill your models near the end of the game, etc.  But most importantly they help with deep strike defense.  Most lists that Alpha deep strike use MSU optimized units; This means that they typically will have few to no ablative wounds to spare.  So when they kill a noise marine or two with their shooting we can use our ability to target a unit that has not shot yet and reduce the impact of their Alpha Strike.  Another important thing to remember is that Death to the false emperor triggers off any attacks in the FIGHT phase including any shots you make with music of the apocalypse

 

Couple things to keep in mind about this ability. This only triggers after an enemy unit finishes their activation.  So casualties from Morale will not trigger Music of the Apocalypse. Remember this when removing models, if you lose 4-5 models in one shooting phase, might make sense to take off the blast masters for the shots instead of not getting them at the end. 

 

 

With the points drop, as well as the release of legion rules it makes our ability to specialize into either a melee unit or assault unit and basically pure buffs across the board. I am SUPER happy with this book. 

 

For shooting units you just cant beat alpha legion. The money range is 24 inches, you want to stay outside of their rapid fire range/ability to get within 12 with a move to negate your -1 to hit. 

 

For CC the quicksilver Emperors Children version is quite nice as well. However the problem is that its hard to build a unit that Khorne Berzerkers dont do better. I think that if you got full attacks on death instead of just one then it would be tempting but as is...not worth it. If I were to make them an assault unit I would go for a large 20 man unit, half shooting, half CC.  This way you can shoot as you advance to get into assault range.  No blast masters in this unit and 1 doom siren. However without a good way to mitigate battleshock this is a risky tactic. 

 

Initially I was a fan of making them 10 strong with two blastmasters, and that is still a pretty solid unit while also making it easier to stay in range of a buffer

 

Noise Marine Weapons

 

So, one of the important things to highlight about Noise Marine specific weapons is that most of our weapons enter their optimal range at 24 inches.  Most standard troops barely enter their effective range at 24 inches with optimal being 12-15. This means that we can enter our optimal range while keeping them outside of theirs consistently. 

 

In addition everything has an assault profile.  That means that no matter what we can advance and fire.  That takes our effective threat range of 31-36 inches after advancing. While it does reduce the effectiveness it is nice to know that the option is always there. 

 

Here is the breakdown on how many wounds(in percentage) one model shooting a Noise Marine Specific Weapon will perform against a specific target. I have included the effect of a -1 in the calculations as well. This does NOT factor in the D3 wounds from a weapon.  This is just the likelihood of getting to the damage step. 

 

 

However, how much damage they do is not everything.  So below I have shared how each weapon compares to each other in output per point against specific targets. Included in the costs is the base points of the noise marine.

 

Below represents how many points of a specific weapon it costs to cause a wound against a specific target. 

 

 

 

So we can see how each weapon in comparison per point across different targets can vary

 

Sonic Blaster

 

Effectively this is an assault three bolter that ignores cover.  For its price it is a significant increase in fire power and I would put this on almost any model that does not have a bolter. The assault profile is huge for this unit as it makes it much easier for them to get in range to shoot first turn with a move and an advance. 

 

Blast Master

 

After looking at the points breakdown for a blast master we are paying a heavy premium for the option to shoot two modes as well as a longer range over a sonic blaster.

 

Where the blast master comes into its own is against multi-wound targets and has significant value against multi-wound(2-3) targets. The benefit of not needing to cause two+independent wounds increases their efficiency significant. 

 

Doom Siren

 

With this weapon changing to d6 I can see it having a place in CC dedicated Noise Marine units. It is pretty solid damage for its points against all targets and is a solid threat to flyers or anyone with a minus to hit.  While I cant justify the points in a shooting based noise marine unit it definitely might have a place in smaller units where you cant get a second blast master and you expect the unit to move up field.   

 

CC Unit

 

After playing a game this weekend and realizing that each noise marine has two attacks base I could see running a small 5 man noise marine unit as a CC unit with a doom siren.  Put 2 5 man units in each Rhino and run them up the field. 

 

Sonic Dreads!!

 

So forgeworld gave us back our sonic dreads!! Basically our weapon arm on the helbrute can be 2 blastmasters!!.  For 155 points with a power scourge we get  dreads with two blast masters that also have 7 str 8 -2 damage 2 attacks!!.  I have already worked 2 into my 2000 point list.  This is huge for noise marine lists! It helps provide serious counter assault while also buffing our shooting. The main downside is that once the deredeo dies they dont have much in the way of survivability and people kill the deredeo quick haha.

Edited September 6, 2017 by leth

[leth]

Summoning aka - Sideboarding

 

So summoning is interesting because it is not  new mechanic but how it plays into army composition is important.  You effectively get to put aside a portion of your army and then "summon" whatever is necessary for that situation.  Got an enemy that has a lot of MSU units? Maybe some fast seekers they only really have elite hunting weaponary? Get a horde of slannesh daemonettes. 

 

One nice thing about summoning is that you can use it as a free movement phase for some of your other units.  For example: They can deploy from a transport(3+ base), move and advance(6+d6), and then summon within 9.  So we are looking at units having a huge threat range while also not starting on the board. 

 

 

Summoning can be used to remove a few units worth of deployment from your army, as well as adjust your needs based on the situation. With the granularity of the point system you can basically plan out 2-3 different kit outs as you play the game or as needs are met.  

 

I would Identify one of each type of unit that you might expect to summon, the range of power points that they cost, and then get as close as you can to have a value for power, and points that you would summon

 

For example:

 

2 Fiends is 4 power and 92 points.  A unit of Daemonettes is 5 power and a base of 90 points. a unit of seekers is 95 points, and a hellflayer is 95 points. Basically if I set aside 95 points, with a roll of 5+(on 3d6), I can summon: a unit of: two fiends, 5 seekers, a hellflayer, or a unit of daemonettes.

 

So all of that versatility with only 95 points put aside.

 

You effectively can buy a sideboard for your army and that is something that cant be underestimated.

 

 

Slannesh Daemons 

 

I have no experience with these so this is just theory crafting based on what I can gather from the stats.  One of the important things is that all of these units are glass hammers.  However in combat they will always go first and so that is a significant deterrent and a solid back up for our mid range shooting.  they also have the speed in general to get where we need them to go.   

 

Daemon Princes

I will only be talking about the Marine Variant simply because the other one loses the defenses of being a character and is thus not worth taking.  Basically you will always want to take the wing variant however how you kit them out will vary. based on points.  The second set of malific talons is the economy version and is great as a blender unit while also being the cheapest. This is a situation where you need to decide who your daemon prince is going after.  Is he going after tough higher armor save units?  Or is he going for a more blender approach. Either way for 3 more points you are always going to take the ax over the sword. 

 

Herald 

The +1 strength is a significant boost in damage for most of your units, basically making it much easier to wound a variety of targets(daemonettes go from t6 to t8 for wounding on 6s, etc.) A significant jump when it comes to damage against heavier targets.  It also has access to the Slaanesh dicipline which are all quite useful in their own way.  Symphony of pain is very good as is Hysterical Frenzy In addition you can throw it on a mount to help it keep up with the rest of the army.  I would never take the exalted chariot as they takes you above the wound threshold for being protected by character status. 

 

Fiends

Honestly, fiends are amazing. their stats alone are quite good, however their 14inch movement combined with their ability to prevent fall back will be huge for shutting down armies that rely on screens and falling back to keep them safe. The ability to reduce psychic tests(smite spam WILL be a thing) is just a bonus on that 47 point cake.  You are probably going to want to take these in units of 1-2 to limit the roll over damage from units(they are not the most durable) and chance of losing a model to a break test.

 

Daemonettes

While these are not the most durable of units I could see a few units having their uses.  One thing that will need to be mitigated is their low leadership either via a daemonic Icon, the use of cmd points, and an instrument of chaos.  However with those things available I could see running a big unit of 30 as a combination screen/deep strike defense.

 

 

Seekers

Their ability to advance and charge means you have a unit moving 16-21 inches before declaring a charge with a +1(because you take the instrument on this unit)

 

Chariots

I dont have enough experience with these but I can definitely see a place for them, especially as a deepstrike defense unit/small unit hunter. Positioning to take maximum advantage of the scything impact will be crucial to their viability(remember its not closest to closest, you base just has to be in 1" of a single model for a successful charge)

 

Forgeworld Items

Edited June 26, 2017 by leth

[Castigator]

 

Auto Pass Morale

 

In most situations marines wont have to worry about this one as our squad sizes tend to be small enough that, combined with a re-roll we wont usually lose models to battleshock and as such it is not usually worth using.

 

 

 

 

I may well have missed this, but where is the re-roll for Battleshock coming from?

 

I really appreciate the effort that has gone into this and will be following this closely 

[leth]

 

 

Auto Pass Morale

 

In most situations marines wont have to worry about this one as our squad sizes tend to be small enough that, combined with a re-roll we wont usually lose models to battleshock and as such it is not usually worth using.

 

 

 

 

I may well have missed this, but where is the re-roll for Battleshock coming from?

 

I really appreciate the effort that has gone into this and will be following this closely 

 

 

Haha, Missed that when I copy and pasted from my DW tactica

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Great topic.

I may have missed what reprend the axis of your charts on noise weapon.

 

IMO i find the blastmaster as effective as a lascanon :

- Prices are equivalent

- I find 2 shoot of D3 Dmg more reliable as 1 shoot of D6

- Strenght 8 is as effective as strenght 9 when targeting Thoughness 4 to 7 (and on 3 index the T8 units are : Land raider, Lord of Skull, Vindicator, Ironclad Dread, Stalker, Tank Commander, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Knight, Leviathan dread, Spartan, Brass Scorpion, Kytan Ravager, Plague Hulk and most of FW Lord of war).

- AP is a big plus for the lascanon vs the blastmaster but they become equivalent when target is on cover (question is : How ofter will preferential target of blastmaster/lascanon be at cover with the new cover rules ?)

- Range are the same.

 

And Sonic blaster are, as u said, worth the 4 points for their anti-infantery power.

 

Questions are :

- Do Emperor's Children need basic SM troops ? (As we still can take those, at least until a Chaos codex take them from us).

Wich imply : Do we need bodies on the tables ? (and if yes : Does Standard space marine are better at that roles than cultist or Daemonette/harpies ?)

And : do we need the Heavy and/or special weapon (flamer, plasma, lascanon, melta)

 

Because it the answer to those 2 questions are No : it means we can go full Noise Marine, without Standard SMC troops or Havoks.

 

And second question : what are the best buddies to cover the weakness of our noise marine ?

[Filkarion]

Noise marines are great for themselves, but I think there may be place for a one or two object holders/laser shooting marines squads, as they almost "an autocannon" cheaper for 1 cc attack less then a noise+blastmaster squad

 

They are good for shooting those hard vehicles down. And my guess is that T8 would be not a rare view on the table

Plus, yes, they are 1 shot vs 1d3... but remember you can reroll that one unlucky roll on that shot, if you really need it

[Panzer]

I honestly see the Blastmasters potential more in killing T4 models instead of killing tanks. Tyranid Warrior and Primaris sure won't like getting hit by S8 AP-2 D1d3 weapons. :P

[leth]

Great topic.

I may have missed what reprend the axis of your charts on noise weapon.

 

IMO i find the blastmaster as effective as a lascanon :

- Prices are equivalent

- I find 2 shoot of D3 Dmg more reliable as 1 shoot of D6

- Strenght 8 is as effective as strenght 9 when targeting Thoughness 4 to 7 (and on 3 index the T8 units are : Land raider, Lord of Skull, Vindicator, Ironclad Dread, Stalker, Tank Commander, Leman Russ, Baneblade, Knight, Leviathan dread, Spartan, Brass Scorpion, Kytan Ravager, Plague Hulk and most of FW Lord of war).

- AP is a big plus for the lascanon vs the blastmaster but they become equivalent when target is on cover (question is : How ofter will preferential target of blastmaster/lascanon be at cover with the new cover rules ?)

- Range are the same.

 

And Sonic blaster are, as u said, worth the 4 points for their anti-infantery power.

 

Questions are :

- Do Emperor's Children need basic SM troops ? (As we still can take those, at least until a Chaos codex take them from us).

Wich imply : Do we need bodies on the tables ? (and if yes : Does Standard space marine are better at that roles than cultist or Daemonette/harpies ?)

And : do we need the Heavy and/or special weapon (flamer, plasma, lascanon, melta)

 

Because it the answer to those 2 questions are No : it means we can go full Noise Marine, without Standard SMC troops or Havoks.

 

And second question : what are the best buddies to cover the weakness of our noise marine ?

 

Personally I think one of the big things about noise marines is that even with just a sonic blaster per point they are much more efficient than a standard marine with a bolter.  The unit also synergizes very well when it comes to its upgrades.  The main question is do you buy 2-3 bullet catchers in a squad since you know a few will die before they get to fire or not.  That is a personal decision call. As the charts above show a noise marine unit is a threat to most things in the game, however their biggest weakness is that they dont specialize in taking down anything with high durability and a large number of wounds. Blastmasters are very efficient at taking down models with 2-4 wounds however when they hit toughness 8/9 there is a significant drop off in effectiveness against those targets with both blast masters AND sonic blasters. Doom Sirens are okay, but getting that close when the unit wants to be at midfield is not ideal nor is it worth the hefty price tag.  

 

Having a few dedicated weapons to deal with toughness 8/9 high number of wound targets would be ideal within any list. I think FW has quite a few units that can help fill in this gap. 

 

When it comes to defending our noise marines to make sure they get to midfield is that we are lacking in good deep strike and assault defense units(a topic I just added to the first post). However one benefit we have is that when our noise marines die they can then shoot at a different deep striking unit that dropped that turn before they get to fire. 

 

Updated points per wound to include the points cost per wound when dealing with multi-wound targets.  We see how each weapon really starts to become efficient in each different category.  Another nice thing about dealing with D3 over D6 is that it will reach an average distribution twice as fast as a D6.  Simply put it takes 3 shots to get 1 of each result.  To get one of each result on a D6 takes 6 shots.  When averaging damage out a D3 is much more reliable than a D6

Edited June 22, 2017 by leth

[DreamIsCollapsing]

however their biggest weakness is that they dont specialize in taking down anything with high durability and a large number of wounds

 

Blastmaster are 2 shoot of D3 Dmg, so as many dommage as a 1D6 lascanon (but more reliable), the wannabe best anti-multiwounds weapon. I really think blastmaster are great for multiwounds models as Rhino or Dread as long as they dont reach 8T.

 

Plus, yes, they are 1 shot vs 1d3... but remember you can reroll that one unlucky roll on that shot, if you really need it

 

I dont think at Command points let as i don't know their true power. And for that we need to know what will be our complete range of Strategem, with Chaos, Slaanesh and Emperor's Children specific Stratagem (as we are talking about Emperor's Children and/or Slaanesh only tactica).  

But yes those are important. Even if i thing eventually we wont have more access to havok than DG or TS. 

 

So what we need to look is models for :

- 1 Destroy multiPV units

- 2 Destroy very hight (>7) thougness multiPV units

- 3 Deep strike defences

- 4 Threaten and eventually destroy long range units. Because i think we just can't win against Tau or IG just with Sonic dakka

- 5 Or stop any full close combat horde army

- 6 Kill hordes army

- 7 Claim objectives 

- 8 Keep objectives ?

 

And to follow the great topic leth gave us : go for maximum redundancy.

 

First : I'm not sure we can rely on the sixth point. I don't see any good unit available for EC to keep objectives. Wich is, imo, a durable unit with long range firepower (to still be usefull if camping in a corner) and a threatening overwatch, with a plus if Infantery (to gain cover where the objectives are usually placed) and if in larger number (because of the new rules for claming objectives). 

So if you guys have an idea ?

 

Second : Redundancy is good, and i think we can really be amoung the best at that : because we have the more polyvalent units. Noise Marine can be used for point 1, 2, 5, 6 and 7. They are not the best at it of course, but someone kill your anti-tank unit ? Use Blastmaster. Someone kill your anti-hordes units ? You still have sonic blaster. A subtle mass of berzerker/nids/orks is charging ? Well you have 3 or D6 overwatch shoot by NM + 2 close combat attack by NM + 3 shoots of sonic weapon when a model die. 

 

So i think we really need overspecialized units to go with this polyvalence. 

 

Here are my food for thought : 

 

Destroy multiPV target : 

- The very fluffy EC Sunkiller (aka 4 Lascannon Havok, if we can still have Havok on chaos codex release)

- Full combi-plasma Termi with Sorcerer with Prescience (ofc supercharge only if Prescience is On) 

- Full Dakka Contemptor/Deredo/Leviathan/Standard dreadnought

- Rapiere laser destroyer

- Hellblade 

 

Destroy  T>7 

- Rapiere laser destroyer

- Sunkillers

- (Hellforged) predator 

- Deimos vindicator laser destroyer

 

Deep strikes defences : 

- Daemonettes ? 

- Chaos Cultist ? 

- Spawns ?

 

Deep strikes assault : 

- Personnal favorite : Warp Talon + cheap chaos lord to summonHerald of Slaanesh : Coz 4A (hysterical freenzy) hitting 3+ with reroll of 1, S5 + Shreed AP-2 are never a bad thing (if your lord is still alive you can also summon a Slaanesh fiends for Soporific Musc

- Chaos terminator (plasma-lord combo ?)

- Heldrake

- Possessed + herald of Slaanesh in a dreadclaw

 

Assault :

Same as deep striking, i would add rhino full of : 

- Chainsword NM ? Are they worth anything ? (clearly more than chainsword chosen, for the same price you get exactly the same caracs BUT with the tasty grenade in opponent mouth each time a models dies in close combat)

- Power weapon chosen ?

- Dark Apostle + Possessed ? (and again, summon Herald of Slaanesh for Hysterical freenzy and +1S to possessed

- Seeker ?

 

Stop Close combat army : 

- Decimator

- Spawn

-  Daemonette + The masque or Slaanesh Herald ?

 

Kill hordes army

- Quadheavy bolter Rapiere ?

 

Claim/contest objectives 

- Bike ?

- Seeker ?

- Raptor ?

 

So an exemple of a list with those considerations in mind : 

 

- 2x10 Full sonic weapon Noise Marine : Move and dakka to take over the board (u can even advance to get in range)

- 1 cheap lord for the "reroll 1 to hit" buff in the middle of those NM

- 2x14 daemonettes, protect the Noise marines from Deep striking units and add a nice screen for shoot (not the best screen i must say) or for charging hordes (with the "i can go first even if u charged" rules)

- Masque of Slaanesh if facing a close combat army (for the -1 to hit daemonette aura)

- 2 laser destroyer hellforged rapier battery

- 3 Bike with 2 plasma 

- 1 Sorcerer on bike with warptime + prescience

- 10 Warp talon : Place your Sorcerer on bike first at 18+9 : 27 away for when u want the fun to happen :

   1) Summon a Herald on steed

   2) Teleport the Warp talon 9" of ennemy and within 18" of your sorcerer

   3) Use Hysterical Frenzy on Warp Talon

   4) Use warptime on Warp talon

   5) Now your warptimed warptalon are within 2" of ennemy units (maybe right in the core of enemy army if u managed to make a hole in his rank) : charge as much units as u want with this sweet automatic successfull charge without overwatch. 

- 1 Vanilla Decimator (if no close combat units threaten you u can use warptime on him before warp talon arrive and go with a 20" mouvement phase

 

Total : 1918 points (for the Herald on steed invocations) 

Edited June 22, 2017 by DreamIsCollapsing

[Slaanbull]

Awesome to have another Noise Marine tactica, I've been a bit sullen on behalf of my Doom Siren rhino rush list since 8th replaced the Traitor Legions supplement(going from S6 AP3 shred to the d3 hits and no firing points deal it is now hurt that tactic a lot).
I'm very positive on the sonic blaster aspect though! As leth mentioned, the 24" range coupled with the ability to advance and shoot can help us dance around some of the other armies rapid-fire threat ranges.

One thing I didn't notice until a game this wednesday was an aspect of our Music of the Apocalypse special rule, I had for some reason read it as a mimic of the AoS blood warriors rule where they get to attack when slain in close combat, but it is whenever one of the noise marines get whacked! Getting to point three of my noise marines at the opponents skitarii snipers and wiping them out before they got the chance to shoot was a huge deal in our 1.500pt game, and allowed my sorcerer to survive that phase. (until he got charged and munched by a group of sicaran infiltrator later the same turn.. )

I guess it's pretty obvious from the rule, but I thought that if I had missed it, maybe some of you had as well, getting to shoot with a model every time we remove one, and not necessarily retaliating at the model that killed them is huge for planning out our movement, and lessens the need for un-upgraded sponges to be the first removed casualties in the units.

[leth]

Yep! That is a strategy I figured would be helpful for dealing with deep strikers as well.  If they drop in multiple small units we just have the noise marines that die target a unit that has not shot yet.

[heptus]

Another good thread for an EC user like me! Thanks for the mathammer.

 

Thougj I agree that CC-dedicated NMs will not that good, I'd still like to try one 9-man unit with Lucius cause I'm his big fan ;) I'm considering the power axe for a sergeant chainswords for the others, and a Slaanesh icon for additional attacks at 5+

Edited June 23, 2017 by heptus

[heptus]

 

Because it the answer to those 2 questions are No : it means we can go full Noise Marine, without Standard SMC troops or Havoks.

 

 

I'm actually painting my EC army enthuastically for doing the similar

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Same here, i wounder if bolt pistol + chainsword Noise marine are worth the price too. 

[Panzer]

I doubt it. Since some Noise Marines WILL die once they are in melee, I'd much rather have a 3 shot Boltgun triggered than having an additional attack and the chance to shoot with a Boltpistol in your shooting phase.

[SonicWarrior028]

Anyone have thoughts on how to be competitive in 8th with EC? I've been running lucious with havos, double avenger Gatling cannon knight and noise marines. It has faired ok. How are your games going so far?

[Panzer]

Anyone have thoughts on how to be competitive in 8th with EC? I've been running lucious with havos, double avenger Gatling cannon knight and noise marines. It has faired ok. How are your games going so far?

Since EC barely exist....same way you can be compettive with any other CSM army without units with another Legions keyword fix in their profile. :D

[SonicWarrior028]

 

Anyone have thoughts on how to be competitive in 8th with EC? I've been running lucious with havos, double avenger Gatling cannon knight and noise marines. It has faired ok. How are your games going so far?

 

Since EC barely exist....same way you can be compettive with any other CSM army without units with another Legions keyword fix in their profile. :D

Very true! But a boy can dream!

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I doubt it. Since some Noise Marines WILL die once they are in melee, I'd much rather have a 3 shot Boltgun triggered than having an additional attack and the chance to shoot with a Boltpistol in your shooting phase.

 

There is always the grenade to launch at death.

NM with Sonic weapon are obviously better than NM with chainsword (at 4 more points per models). 

 

Question is : Are NM with chainsword worth for anti-FeP and/or close combat assault (in rhino for exemple). Or should NM be considered only with sonic weapon and leave those missions for slaanesh daemon/possessed/raptor/warp talon ?

[Sersi]

Well, 10 Noise Marines with chain swords cost 160 pts and will kill ~5.5 Tactical in combat with DTTFE. While 18 Daemonettes cost 162 pts and will kill ~8 Tactical in combat.    Daemonettes kill more for the same price and can wound anything on a 6; making them more versatile. Then look at durability; a 10 man tactical squad in rapid fire range will kill ~6 Daemonettes vs  ~3 Noise Marines. So, Noise marines are twice as durable; but you still have 12 Daemonettes vs 7 Noise Marines left. At least until the Moral phase anyway.  The other issue is the Noise Marines really need a Rhino to get into charge range; for those 70 pts you could have another ~8 Daemonettes or a Herald to buff them to Strength 4.

 

Ultimately, daemons just do assault better and more cost effective at it.  But if you want to keep the Legion feel Noise Marines aren't terrible in melee; and not everything needs to be optimized. I'll probably run 1-2 of melee Noise Marines along with melee Chosen since I have the models.  

[Panzer]

For melee there are a lot better options imo.

Even just Raptors would be better due their mobility.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Thx for the reponse lads.

 

 

The other issue is the Noise Marines really need a Rhino to get into charge range; for those 70 pts you could have another ~8 Daemonettes or a Herald to buff them to Strength 4.

But how do you get into charge with Daemonette with only a 7" mouvement ? I don't feel confident with summoning large squads of troops. 

[Panzer]

Thx for the reponse lads.

 

 

The other issue is the Noise Marines really need a Rhino to get into charge range; for those 70 pts you could have another ~8 Daemonettes or a Herald to buff them to Strength 4.

But how do you get into charge with Daemonette with only a 7" mouvement ? I don't feel confident with summoning large squads of troops. 

Daemons are a horde army without transports...so melee units obviously have to advance to get to the enemy. Or get summoned. Of course a lot will die on their way but that doesn't sting as much since they are fairely cheap. ;)

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Daemons are a horde army without transports...

 

 

They do have one transport.

 

So a cheap Emperor's Chidlren unit to protect from FeP will be daemonette (or spawn ?).

And a good assault unit would be daemonette, seeker or raptor/warp talon.