Do I have to use Fast Dice Rolling?

[H311fi5h]

The sidebar on page 179 of the rulebook describes how to resolve multiple attacks with the same weapon. Now my question is whether this is a must, or optional.

Why is this relevant?

Well, let's say I have a Devastator Squad with 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Lascannons. They shoot all their guns at a unit of Tyranid Warriors with 3 wounds each. One of the Warriors is already down to 1 wound. I decide to shoot one HB to finish him off, then proceed to fire one LC shot. If the target is left standing with 1 or 2 wounds, I might want to fire the second HB, otherwise I fire the second LC. Cool or not?

[Seahawk]

Absolutely not. You must declare all targets before rolling any dice in the first place.

[H311fi5h]

I'm not talking about targeting different units. I declare the Tyranid Warrior unit as target for all guns before I resolve the attacks. I'm talking about the order in which the attacks are resolved.

We're used to rolling the two HB's, and then the 2 LC's, or the other way round. But do the rules actually require this, or could I fire the guns in any order I want?

Edited June 21, 2017 by H311fi5h

[Seahawk]

No, you still have to declare all your shots first, even if it's at a single target (you just declare your order). You'll probably gain unpopular points by unnecessarily lengthening a game though.

[H311fi5h]

Where does it say that you have to declare the order? The rules only mention declaring a target.

Either speed rolling is mandatory where possible (all shooting attacks with the same profile together) or it isn't. If it isn't the controlling player can roll in any order he desires.

Page 181 describes how to make shooting attacks one at a time. Section 4. states "Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together."

That's sound like it is the controlling player's choice how to resolve his shooting attacks.

[Seahawk]

Right, but again you still must declare what you intend to do with your shots before rolling for ANY of them. That means you can't choose mid shot to use a heavy bolter next, it means you must choose the order in which you fire before rolling dice for any of them.

[Acebaur]

It very clearly says "they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will spit the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled..."

 

Seems pretty cut and dry, you choose how are are going to shoot them before rolling anything. 

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I think people are missing the actual question in all the fuzz. The question isn't "do I have to *declare* my targets." The issue is "once I *have* declared, can I roll them in any order I want, or must I use fast-rolling to roll all the weapons of the same type at the same time." Splitting fire has nothing to do with it either, since all the shots are going into the same target, and you fire at units, not models.

[Seahawk]

Sure it does. Will he split the heavy bolters shots between the lascannon shots, alternating as per one of his options? Then he must declare it before rolling any dice.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Sure it does. Will he split the heavy bolters shots between the lascannon shots, alternating as per one of his options? Then he must declare it before rolling any dice.

I meant splitting between targets, I should have been clearer. And he still isn't splitting fire, since he's firing all the guns at the same target. The only thing that remains is the order the shots are resolved, and that's where fast-rolling kicks in, if mandatory. In essence, does he have to roll for ALL the weapons of the same type, or can he resolve it weapon by weapon, etc, AFTER targets have been declared. We're on Step 3, not Step 2, at this point.

 

If it helps, imagine he's firing a squad's worth of bolters: does he *have* to roll all of them at the same time, or can he resolve them bolter by bolter by bolter, one at a time, in sequence?

[Toasterfree]

like said above, you don't HAVE to, but that slows the game way down. just roll them all at the same time.

[H311fi5h]

Thank you Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra exactly that was my question.

 

Let me reiterate why this is pretty significant. There are quite a lot of units with multiple multi-wound models in 8th. Primaris, Ogryns, Tyranid Warriors, Tau suits, Terminators, Destroyers, just to name a few.

Many units also have a mix of single damage and multi-damage weapons. Both for shooting and close combat actually. We can extend the question to the fight phase.

The order of resolving these attacks has a pretty big impact on the number of casualties caused. This is not something minor that just slows down the game. It's a question of major tactical importance.

Just take a single tactical squad with 9 bolt guns and a melta gun, shooting at a unit of Chaos Spawn (4 wounds), one of them with 1 wound left.

There have now been 3 interpretations of how this is resolved, and all are significantly different in their results:

1) Fast dice rolling mandatory: Fire all bolt guns, then fire melta gun -> very low chance of killing more than 2 Spawn, high chance of wasting damage

2) Fast dice rolling optional, but declaring before rolling: Fire x bolt guns, then meltagun, then remaining bolt guns -> slightly better, but risk of the first salvo failing to kill the first, resulting in waste of the melta shot

3) Fast dice rolling optional, no declaring: Fire bolt guns one at a time until first broadside is dead, then melta gun, then remaining bolt guns -> optimal, no damage lost

I think 2) is the least likely. The rules about declaring how to split your fire clearly refer to shooting at different targets. Not once do they mention the order of resolving shots, It's a pretty big stretch to include the order of shooting into this rule.

So we're left with 1) or 3). And that is quite a difference.

Edited June 22, 2017 by H311fi5h

[Seahawk]

Ezra, it's in step 3 that you "declare how you will split the units shots before any dice are rolled", which I think still pertains to how you will split up the order in which they resolve. Remember, split fire doesn't exist as a defined term, so if you are literally splitting up your shots so that they are firing alternately as described, it must be declared before any dice are rolled.

 

I therefore think #2 is the answer. The line about splitting refers to both shooting at a single target or shooting at multiple targets, so it applies to all scenarios.

[Acebaur]

I'd just like to point out that statistically there is almost no difference between option 1 and 3 on average. 18 bolter rounds is only going to do .63 wounds on a broadside, so if one gets through then you should feel lucky.

[H311fi5h]

Maybe Broadside aren't the right example. Take a unit of Spawn, Zoanthropes, Warriors etc. instead. There isn't a lack of multi-wound units in 8th. And there will be cases where this is the difference between killing a unit, and not killing it. And that can be the difference between winning and losing. "Just roll everything together" isn't really a satisfying solution thb.

[Quixus]

Ezra, it's in step 3 that you "declare how you will split the units shots before any dice are rolled", which I think still pertains to how you will split up the order in which they resolve. Remember, split fire doesn't exist as a defined term, so if you are literally splitting up your shots so that they are firing alternately as described, it must be declared before any dice are rolled.

 

I therefore think #2 is the answer. The line about splitting refers to both shooting at a single target or shooting at multiple targets, so it applies to all scenarios.

You can only target units, not individual models (unless you have sniper weapons)

 

There is absolutely no rule in which order you have to use your weapons or that you have to roll multiple attacks at a time that is your choice. You can use the HB first and go through all steps of resolve attacks including applying damage, and then go to the Lascannon or some other weapon. If a model in the target unit is already wounded the HB wounds have to go onto that model.

[Toasterfree]

you cant roll weapons at targets one at a time, you have to declare where all of the shots are going before dice get rolled. it doesn't matter (unless you want to slow play) if you roll all of the dice firing at a target at one time or not. they still have to go onto that target

[Elios Harg]

Fast Dice Rolling is optional. Yes, you can decide (after declaring which target each weapon is shooting at) to fire each individual weapon in any order you choose so long as you resolve all shots at target unit A before resolving shots at target unit B. 

 

Other than slow playing, the only time this will really matter is if you are shooting at a unit with multiple wounds in which case, multiple damage weapons (like melta guns) can be wasted if you fire them when you have a wounded model in the target unit. Thus, for optimal damage output, you would want to resolve bolt gun shots until you score a wound with a failed save on the wounded model. Then, with all healthy models in the unit, you want to fire the melta gun which can potentially kill a full model. Then you want to fire the remaining bolt guns. Statistically, this method is going to be slightly better than shooting all bolt guns first and then firing the melta gun (or other multi-damage weapons) as it has a lower chance of wasting damage. On the flip side, if you have a fully unwounded unit, then you want to roll a melta gun first, then continue rolling multi-damage guns unless you roll a 1 for damage, then you would want to roll boltguns, as above. Is it worth the slight increase in optimization to be viewed as "that guy?" Probably not.

[Quixus]

you cant roll weapons at targets one at a time, you have to declare where all of the shots are going before dice get rolled. it doesn't matter (unless you want to slow play) if you roll all of the dice firing at a target at one time or not. they still have to go onto that target

But the target has to be a unit as a whole not a specific model. The OP is about putting D1 wounds on an already wounded model.

 

Let's say you have a dev squad with 2 Heavy Boltera and 2 Lascannons. Declare you want to shoot at a unit of 5 chaos terminators, one of which has already lost a wound.

Now you roll your 1st attack from the 1st HB and get a hit and a wound. This wound may be allocated by your opponent. Since one terminator has already lost a wound the wound from the shot must go on the wounded terminator. If the terminator saves, proceed with the next HB attack until the terminator fails. As soon as the target unit has only unwounded models start using the lascannons to remove models with one shot. If you are unlucky and rol a 1 on the d6, go back to the remaining HB attacks.

 

Yes this slows down game play, but it should be more efficient, if you have mixed weapons.

[Captain Coolpants]

This is a good point actually. Last edition there was a clear rule where you HAD to roll each weapon type at the same time at the same target.

 

Is there such rule now?

 

Because if not, then after your target has been selected then of course you can alternate between weapons at will.

[Quixus]

No, they say the default is rolling one at a time but give the option to combine certain rolls.

 

Fast Dice Rolling

The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate. Remember, if the target unit contains a model that has already lost any wounds, they must allocate further wounds to this model until either it is slain, or all the wounds have been saved or resolved.

So yeah yiou can alternate between weapons at will, you can even switch from one attack to another e.g. one HB shot, one Lascannon shot, one Bolter shot...

Edited June 22, 2017 by Quixus

[Claws and Effect]

Sounds like it's technically legal. Seems like kind of a beardy way to do it though.

 

I seriously doubt I would ever do that unless my opponent started doing it first.

[Cactus]

I agree that the sidebar text under Fast Dice Rolling is optional. This raises the question if a unit fires a heavy bolter and a lascannon do you have to roll all the attacks from one weapon in an uninterrupted sequence? Can you roll HB1, LC, HB2 then HB3?

 

Step 4 of the shooting sequence says this:

 

Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together.

 

Then it goes on to describe the process of making a single attack. I can't see anything that requires you to make all attacks from a model, or weapon, before you can choose another model or weapon to resolve.

 

I think that most of the time rolling singly won't be worth the bother but in extreme cases it can make a significant difference. I recommend assembling a pool of variously coloured dice for all the unit's attacks before rolling anything. Then you can just pull dice from the selection one at a time and it's clear to both players what's happening at every stage, without slowing the game with book-keeping or debate.

[Quixus]

Yup one attack at a time. No need to roll the attacks from a single weapon in sequence. You can use single HB attacks to mop up wounded models.

[cielaq]

I beg to differ.

The Shooting sequence is:

1. Choose unit to shoot with

2. Choose targets 

3. Choose ranged weapon

4. Resolve attacks

 

Then, in point 3, under "Number of attacks"

"Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made."

 

So you do all the shooting by given weapon before moving to the other one.