Do I have to use Fast Dice Rolling?

[Aziras]

Unless it is tournament play it seems pretty lame to play this way.

 

In a friendly game I would expect it to play out like this:

 

* All similar attacks are rolled together to speed up the game

* All the "loose" damage is allocated in free flow

* Big guns will hit a "fresh" model and apply damage, any excess is lost, and remaining damage is taken from loose damage to kill as many models as possible

 

I know the rules state that the model owner allocates wounds, but that should not be taken so literally as to force the other player to game the hit order to compensate.

 

Example:

Combat squad of marines outside rapid fire range with a supercharged plasma gun shoots at a termie squad that has 4 models left and one already on 1 remaining wound.

Fast-dice scenario: Player A rolls 4 blue + 1 red dice. 1 bolter wound + 1 plasma wound. Player B saves neither - Fairplay allocation of bolter vs wounded termine and plasma against fresh termie: Net result, two dead termies.

Slow-dice-troll scenario: Player A rolls bolter1, with playerB rolling save on wounds. This repeats until one wound is caused, then playerA rolls plasma, then finish off any remaining bolters. Net result, two dead termies.

 

Min-maxing through sequential rolling just bogs the game down. Fairplay mentality can make the game much more fun.

 

A similar scenario will play out when a unit is partial in combat. The defending player can choose to roll saves sequentially since as soon as the last model outside cover is dead, the remaining saves will get the modifier. In this case you can also just roll them all and count the fails sequentially to speed up the game.

Or units with some models that has better saves. You would want to roll saves sequentially for that, or simply count fails cleverly.

 

Personally I would not enjoy playing against a player who would obstruct the game in such a way. With the amount of random dice rolls in this game, it seems really silly to micro-min-max on hit allocation. I hope some fairplay clarifications are published with some examples of these scenarios and how players can best speed up the rolling without penalizing either player.

[Quixus]

 

I beg to differ.

The Shooting sequence is:

1. Choose unit to shoot with

2. Choose targets 

3. Choose ranged weapon

4. Resolve attacks

 

Then, in point 3, under "Number of attacks"

"Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made."

 

So you do all the shooting by given weapon before moving to the other one.

 

The first part of number three only instructs you to assign each shot of each weapon to a target (unit). It does not instruct you to pick an order of dice rolls. The only order given is that all attacks against a given target must be resolved before attacks against a different target can be attempted.

 

To be instructed to make a certain number of attacks does not mean that the sequence of attacks of one model is fixed or that one model must conclude all its attacks before another model can make its attacks.

 

Just because previous editions forced us to roll all attacks from one weapon before going to the next does not mean that the current rule set also has this requirement.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Quixus

[Aziras]

The rules distinguish between "shots" and "attacks". A shot can have multiple attacks (like heavy weapons). Allocation is done by shots, and you resolve by attacks.

 

I suppose that sometime in between you roll for variable number of attacks, like a heavy D6 weapon.

 

The rules still state you can resolve attacks in sequence. Although it sure calls for a clarification as it will make games so not fun if players line up their attacks and resolve them according to optimal damage. Fair-play ftw.

[Quixus]

The rules distinguish between "shots" and "attacks". A shot can have multiple attacks (like heavy weapons). Allocation is done by shots, and you resolve by attacks.

While this is true, it has nothing to do with the question. Shots are only allocated to a unit, not to certain models. Moreover no order is specified.

If you disagree please show me a rule that prohibits the following order of operations (again with a unit of devastators with three lascannons and one heavy bolter shooting at a unit of chaos terminators one of which is wounded):

1. Choose unit to shoot with: I choose the devastators

2. Choose targets: I choose the Chaos Terminators

3. Choose ranged weapon: Since I have chosen only one target, all weapons will shoot at the Chaos Terminators

4. Resolve attacks: I choose to resolve each attack separately

• Make hit roll: I roll a hit with the heavy bolter

• Make wound roll: I successfully wound with the heavy bolter attack

• Enemy allocates wound: The other player has to allocate the wound to the wounded terminator.

• Enemy makes saving throw: The other player rolls a 1

• Inflict damage: 1D is inflicted on the wounded terminator, it is removed.

 

Next attack:

 

• Make hit roll: I roll a hit with the lascannon

• Make wound roll: I successfully wound

• Enemy allocates wound: The other player selects one of the Terminators

• Enemy makes saving throw: The other player fails his invulnerable save.

• Inflict damage: I roll a 1 on the d6, the terminator loses a wound.

 

So back to the HB:

• Make hit roll: I roll a hit with the heavy bolter

• Make wound roll: I successfully wound with the heavy bolter attack

• Enemy allocates wound: The other player has to allocate the wound to the wounded terminator.

• Enemy makes saving throw: The other player rolls a 1

• Inflict damage: 1D is inflicted on the wounded terminator, it is removed.

 

And so on until all attacks are resolved.

 

The rules still state you can resolve attacks in sequence.

True, but the rules do not call for a specific sequence like begin with all attacks from weapon a and then proceed with all attacks from weapon b. the only mandatory order concerns shooting at multiple units. In that case all attacks against one unit must be resolved before attacking another unit.

 

Although it sure calls for a clarification as it will make games so not fun if players line up their attacks and resolve them according to optimal damage. Fair-play ftw.

How is one way less fair than the other? One method takes a bit longer but it is just as fair because both players are free to use that method.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Quixus

[Aziras]

Quixus, I was not arguing against the sequential allocation. In fact, I was stating that the rules are specifically worded to make it possible.

 

To simplify your example:

1) Allocate shots

 - 3x lascannon + 1x H.bolter at terminators

2) Total up attacks

 - 3x lascannon attacks + 3x H.bolter attacks

3) Resolve attacks in any order chosen by attacker

 - sequential means roll hit+wound+save and allocate damage for each attack before moving to the next

 - fast-dice means roll all of them together and defender allocates wounds

 

The point in splitting #2 and #3 is to make it even more rigid, in the sense that this would be the phase for variable attack weapons would roll for number of attacks. Then once you know if your H.Plasma shoots 1, 2, or 3 attacks you move on to allocation and can then mix-n-match the order as you wish.

 

However, my entire point would be that if the defending player is a douche and does not apply common sense to wound allocation of mixed shooting, then the attacking player is forced to roll in some sort of complicated conditional sequence. Wasting time and making the game not fun for anyone.

The net result is the same as if the attacker rolls all the attacks together against each unit (different color dice if weapons are different) and then damage is allocated in the most efficient way. Of course still following the rule of finishing a model with prior damage and the defender picking which new model to assign damage to.

 

In the above example there are 3 different potential kinds of damage to allocate:

* H.bolter doing 1 damage

* Lascannon doing 1 damage (rolled 1 on 1d6 for damage)

* Lascannon doing 2 damage (rolled 2+ on 1d6 for damage) - assuming the termies does not have some special rule to ignore damage - as that complicates it further.

 

Assuming they are all rolled together, including saves and damage done you are left with a number of dice representing one of the above 3 end results, or a failed damage.

 

If the target unit already has a wounded termie, fast approach is to simply remove that model along with one 1-damage die. Two possible scenarios:

 

1)

If there are no 1-damage die (no H.bolters did damage and all the lascannons did 2+ damage) then "waste" one of the multi-damage attacks to remove the wounded termie and remove a fresh termie for each of the additional 2+ damage lascannon hits.

 

2)

If there are at least one 1-damage die (either a H.bolter or a lascannon that rolled 1 for damage), then remove that die along with the wounded termie. After that remove a fresh termie for each 2+ damage lascannon hit. Finally allocate any remaining 1-damage die as normal (removing more termies if there are 2 or more remaining damage to allocate).

 

This process will be a LOT faster and make the game flow better. However, if the defending player choose to be a douche and argue for wasted lascannon shots on the wounded termie, then the only way to resolve it is to go to the slow sequential rolling.

 

For the record, the same net result will be the case if the unit has mixed saves (like if one of the termies had a shield). In that case, you would need to roll in sequence because the saves would be different. And if the defending player was a total douche, he would then choose to take some hits with the shield model and others with the rest. This is another area that is not fully clarified in the rules. Because if one of the non-shield termies has suffered one damage, can he choose to take a H.bolter hit with the shield termie? The rules only state that wounds are allocated to damaged models, but does not account for the situation where models have different saves.

 

Back to the same example: Termie squad has a wounded non-shield termie and of the remaining 4 termies one of them has a storm shield.

You wound with 1 H.bolter and 1 lascannon.

You pick to resolve H.bolter first - I pick to take the hit with the shield and fail the save. (can I even pick a different model to save than the one that is already wounded?)

What happens then?!! Does the wounded termie bite it from the damage, or will the shield termie also suffer one damage?

Net result is different: In one scenario I lose a termie and the lascannon may pop a second, in the other I have two termies at 1 health and the lascannon can finish off either of them, or possibly not any at all if I make the lascannon save.

 

The area certainly need some clarifications as the more troll'y players have a lot of ways to game the current rules. I can see situations where some units will roll with a single "shielder" to have an invuln save for big hits and use the other models to soak a damage for 1-damage hits.

[Quixus]

The rules explicitly say that wounds must be allocated to wounded models. So there can only ever be one wounded model in the unit and only when there is no wounded model can the opposing player actually freely allocate a wound.

[Eddie Orlock]

... However, my entire point would be that if the defending player is a douche and does not apply common sense to wound allocation of mixed shooting, then the attacking player is forced to roll in some sort of complicated conditional sequence. ...

If this is the current thrust of the discussion then we're no longer on the topic of official rules and have wandered down some winding path about how to deal with unpleasant members of your playgroup.

 

There's much commentary, and even some assistance, to be had from the community at the B&C on this subject, but the official rules forum is not the correct venue for that conversation.

 

You may have some success with the 'douches' in your life if you can make the case, without insulting them, that expedient play is in their interest and assigning the wounds appropriately is part of expedient play. Pro-tip: calling them 'douches', even in the darkness of your own mind, is toxic to building a pleasant gaming community and thus not good practice.

[H311fi5h]

I asked Reece from FLG about this, he says: "resolve each weapons type at the same time, then on to the next." What part of the rules he based his assessment on however I don't know. I guess I'll ask GW for clarification.

[Eddie Orlock]

... What part of the rules he based his assessment on however I don't know. I guess I'll ask GW for clarification.

And rightly so. No matter the size of his internet bull horn, Reece's word bears no more authority on this than yours or mine.

 

What's worse, is as an internet celebrity he may have the ability to further and create confusion by propagating misinterpretations. It is thus irresponsible to the community for him to thoughtlessly issue them forth.

 

As always, it's the foundation of the argument that matters, not who voices it.

[Quixus]

I asked Reece from FLG about this, he says: "resolve each weapons type at the same time, then on to the next." What part of the rules he based his assessment on however I don't know. I guess I'll ask GW for clarification.

While this was correct for 7th edition, there is no such rule in 8th. In fact the rules say the opposite:

Number of Attacks

Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made. The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon’s profile, along with the weapon’s type.

So a single weapon can make multiple attacks, but the Resolve attacks  sequence is prefaced by the following:

Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:

 

So according to the rules there is nothing stopping you from going through all the steps from Resolve Attacks for each attack separately. No rule is forcing you to roll all attacks from one weapon at once or even preventing you from alternating between attacks from different weapons.

[OutlawSixActual]

In fact the rules ASSUME, that you roll each attack and gives you the OPTION of grouping rolls together. So the OP's method is 100% valid - just use it sparingly if you dont want to be the person that no one can stand.