Primarch Confrontations at the Siege of Terra

[JH79]

Unless Abb is Chaos-buffed...I don't see him doing very well

This.

 

I get it that in 40k he's beyond OP etc... but during the Heresy, he's just a regular ol Astartes, albeit bigger than some (similar to Polux) and likes to wear Terminator Plate. Against Valdor he would still be dismembered and left to rot, rather quickly. First Heretic and Master of Mankind show the kind of damage Custodians can do, regular ol Astartes don't stand a chance one on one. Yes Sword of Truth would give some pause to argue, but c'mon that just slipped through the net before the series had Laurie taking the reins re continuity etc...

 

As for Primarchs I remember ADB posting a while back that he would like to kill off lorgar, i don't know if he meant at the siege, or even if GW would approve of such a decision, but that would indeed be awesome to see... killed by the Angel in the opening moments of the siege, heart's ripped from his chest before anyone knew what had happened... the laughter of thirsting gods whispering sweet nothings in his ear as the angel soars skyward and a handful of crack grenades detonate in his empty chest cavity. Boom! Cue Angron and Co going to town on the defenders.

Edited June 23, 2017 by JH79

[b1soul]

Yes...maybe 5% chance

[Mellow]

Seeing as Lorgar was essentially the starter of the HH it would be good to see him either:

 

Killed off realising moments before death what betrayal had caused Humanity.

 

Or

 

Understanding why he's become a hermit which I would presume is because he's telling himself he was right all along and The Emperor is a god after all.

[helterskelter]

Abby and loken will be smacking each other in the chops, before he does a runner for the 2nd time and gets Tormageddon to come do the dirty for him, whereupon loken and tor will mutually end the other. Maybe.

[b1soul]

I would say Custodes come across as significantly more powerful in MoM than in prior sources including First Heretic

 

In Inferno, they are even more powerful, almost comically so.

 

Almost makes you wonder what's the point of Astartes...are Astartes just mass-produced garbage?

 

The Lions vs. Wolves/Warriors vs. Soldiers contrast isn't really highlighted in MoM or Inferno. In group engagements, the Astartes hold no edge.

 

This may be because the Traitors are not very organised...but in a battle between the two, I would've chosen to emphasise the Astartes' strength vs. the Custodes strength, not just have the Custodes dominate utterly.

[Vesper]

I'd say they looked quite believable in The First Heretic while remaining true to their reputation. That's how I see Custodes, at least. So Abaddon offing Valdor doesn't strike me as out of place.

[drooling blood]

Lets have Khârn bitch slap Valdor and spit on his corpse, ha you thought you were good. Or even his live body. Let the golden banana realize hes out classed, by a generic marine and about to be dead. Have Sigi rescue Valdor.

Kurze solo Dorn in his head quarters, your walls are no protection from me. Before Sangy arrives. The BA must have been doing something before they arrived on the wall.

Sangys prolly about to meet a melancholic Magnus in the ruin storm. Prolly confirming his thoughts when he meets Horus.

Perturabo needs something though. Maybe a monty python french castle verbal with Dorn.

Only one Fulgrim can run into is the Khan. Khan could run into anyone. Maybe Pert, trying to silence his big guns.

[NKCougar]

I would say Custodes come across as significantly more powerful in MoM than in prior sources including First Heretic

 

In Inferno, they are even more powerful, almost comically so.

 

Almost makes you wonder what's the point of Astartes...are Astartes just mass-produced garbage?

 

The Lions vs. Wolves/Warriors vs. Soldiers contrast isn't really highlighted in MoM or Inferno. In group engagements, the Astartes hold no edge.

 

This may be because the Traitors are not very organised...but in a battle between the two, I would've chosen to emphasise the Astartes' strength vs. the Custodes strength, not just have the Custodes dominate utterly.

 

On the Custodes, (spoilers for Master of Mankind below)

 

I think MoM did a good job setting the power level of Custodes. These guys are taken at near toddler-age and immediately begin the process. One describes it as having perfection bred into his beinf at the genetic level in a long, painstaking process, while the Astartes are "mass produced" with organs that only mimic the perfection of Custodes genetics.

 

The Emperor himself says: 'Each one of the Ten Thousand represents genetic lore acquired over many lifetimes. Each one of you is unique, a work of art never to be repeated. I am miserly with your lives, where I would spend so many others without a thought.'

 

So from that, we get some fairly pertinent information: the Custodes are damned hard to create. They are each unique, and they are created in such a fashion as to have superior genetics.

 

They're also shown slaughtering Astartes - but while they may (or may not, depending on your interpretation of the above) be superior on a genetic level, their preperation is what makes them so deadly. They do nothing but study threats to said Master of Mankind, and figure out the best methods to stop them. So it makes sense that they would be well-prepared to kill them.

 

We also see in MoM that in a 1-on-1 battle, the Custodes win consistently, but when the Astartes use their pack tactics the Bananamen will lose - that's going to be important during the Siege, thanks to the sheer numbers of traitor Astartes present. Our golden phallic friends will be hard pressed when they encounter forces that outnumber them.

 

I haven't read Inferno, so I'm not sure how they're portrayed in that, but I'm working off of what I've seen in ADB's books.

[bluntblade]

The Webway war isn't one that favours the Astartes. They never seem to gather more than a few squads together at any one point, surrounded by a mess of daemons. They aren't able to, say, hammer the Custodes with heavy weapons and then launch assault marines into the mess. We aren't watching the sort of battle that the Siege will feature, with Custodians facing proper Legion forces.

[AceofAllTradez]

Although this is not a primarch fight I'm kind of interested in how Sevatar meets his end.

Edited June 24, 2017 by AceofAllTradez

[NKCougar]

The Webway war isn't one that favours the Astartes. They never seem to gather more than a few squads together at any one point, surrounded by a mess of daemons. They aren't able to, say, hammer the Custodes with heavy weapons and then launch assault marines into the mess. We aren't watching the sort of battle that the Siege will feature, with Custodians facing proper Legion forces.

I fully expect that to end poorly for the custodes. They're excellent 1-on-1 but in full scale engagements the Astartes would win. The custodes are better warriors/duellists and bodyguards, but the Astartes are better soldiers.

[b1soul]

I fully expect that to end poorly for the custodes. They're excellent 1-on-1 but in full scale engagements the Astartes would win. The custodes are better warriors/duellists and bodyguards, but the Astartes are better soldiers.

Yeah...maybe MoM is an exception. However, there was supposedly quite a massive number of Traitor Astartes in the Webway, and they got thoroughly outclassed.

 

In Inferno, the TSons got slaughtered as well.

 

Inferno and MoM seem to suggest that Custodes have incredible team coordination, almost like subconscious choreography

[A D-B]

 

I fully expect that to end poorly for the custodes. They're excellent 1-on-1 but in full scale engagements the Astartes would win. The custodes are better warriors/duellists and bodyguards, but the Astartes are better soldiers.

Yeah...maybe MoM is an exception. However, there was supposedly quite a massive number of Traitor Astartes in the Webway, and they got thoroughly outclassed.

 

In Inferno, the TSons got slaughtered as well.

 

Inferno and MoM seem to suggest that Custodes have incredible team coordination, almost like subconscious choreography

 

They do, because all veteran soldiers do, and they're the just about the most experienced veterans in the Imperium. It's not on the level of Space Marines, though, who are born and trained to fight as "a Legion". Nothing in TMoM contradicts TFH, but the Custodians in several recent publications did indeed get scaled up from what little there was about them before, for two reasons: 

 

1. There was almost nothing about them before, and it was finally time to define them. 

2. As I've said about a squillion times already, what little there was about them was before we decided just what they were. An off-hand reference in a single early Dan Abnett story isn't really The One Ring of references, f'rex.

 

Several peeps in this thread have the right of it, regarding the encounters and abilities of the Custodians. NKCougar and bluntblade explain it very well, so I'll spare us all repeating it. There's nothing overtly(?) inconsistent about them in TMoM and TFH, as far as I remember. Several of us were hugely careful about that. Fine-toothed combs, and so on.

Edited June 24, 2017 by A D-B

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

Speaking of Custodes, I have seen mention of their weapons being gene locked. I know of two characters that can break those locks, Argel Tal and Abaddon. Will traitors be getting their hands on Custodes weapons during the siege? It could be interesting. Just how angry would a Custodian get if traitors used those weapons on them?  

[NKCougar]

 

 

 

I fully expect that to end poorly for the custodes. They're excellent 1-on-1 but in full scale engagements the Astartes would win. The custodes are better warriors/duellists and bodyguards, but the Astartes are better soldiers.

Yeah...maybe MoM is an exception. However, there was supposedly quite a massive number of Traitor Astartes in the Webway, and they got thoroughly outclassed.

 

In Inferno, the TSons got slaughtered as well.

 

Inferno and MoM seem to suggest that Custodes have incredible team coordination, almost like subconscious choreography

They do, because all veteran soldiers do, and they're the just about the most experienced veterans in the Imperium. It's not on the level of Space Marines, though, who are born and trained to fight as "a Legion". Nothing in TMoM contradicts TFH, but the Custodians in several recent publications did indeed get scaled up from what little there was about them before, for two reasons:

 

1. There was almost nothing about them before, and it was finally time to define them.

2. As I've said about a squillion times already, what little there was about them was before we decided just what they were. An off-hand reference in a single early Dan Abnett story isn't really The One Ring of references, f'rex.

 

Several peeps in this thread have the right of it, regarding the encounters and abilities of the Custodians. NKCougar and bluntblade explain it very well, so I'll spare us all repeating it. There's nothing overtly(?) inconsistent about them in TMoM and TFH, as far as I remember. Several of us were hugely careful about that. Fine-toothed combs, and so on.

I definitely wouldn't want to write the ten thousand because of that. They had to slot in somewhere at least above Astartes on an individual basis, and at the very most a few steps under a primarch (Valdor was apparently considered equal to the primarchs in bladework - maybe not strength, but skill). Spoiler tagging the rest:

 

The way I see it in this setting, the Custodes are the Renaissance men of the age. They would have to be, to serve as the Emperor's personal bodyguard. They had one duty that came before everything - not just their own lives, but anything at all. They were to be the final line of defence/impenetrable barrier between the Emperor and anything that endangered him. In order to do this, they had to:

 

1. learn - they educated themselves on potential enemies,from xenos, to human, then mundane and (I'm assuming here, but I'd say it's a pretty good guess - they appeared to fraternize on some level with the Silent Sisters, since they were both his chosen, and Aquillon knew something of what Xaphen's ritual to silence their astropath was) psychic. To better understand how these threats might be made manifest, they would learn about the military/culture/customs of a world or empire, to gain knowledge of how someone from it may act. These guys have a ridiculous amount of knowledge stuffed in their heads.

 

2. Anticipate and have a counter - at all times, they had to be ready for all the things. Spies, political threats (think a powerful politician creating civil unrest, and things along that line), assassins, traitors - really, if there's any way to threaten the Emperor, they almost definitely know it and have devised a way to defend him from it.

 

3. Identify the most likely threats. The Custodes have a massive colony of eternally bonded serf families, and many of these work to gather intelligence for them. Using the intelligence, the Custodes then gauge how this threat is going to manifest, and how to destroy it, sometimes before it can be put into action. In Blood Game short story, Amon (I think) and Valdor discussed a list containing their most pressing matters of the hour - Amon requests that he be sent to deal with the problem, Valdor says the matter is in hand, but Amon insists and gets it (this will be important lower down).

 

4. Put the above into practical effect. This is where the endless hours of physical preparation and blood games come in. To continue the Blood Game reference, Amon then infiltrated the home of one of Terra's most powerful men, remaining undetected (aside from a Lucifer Black, who somehow knew that Amon was wearing a disguise), in order to apprehend him as a spy.

 

So these guys are some of the most intelligent and well-educated in the entirety of the Imperium, as a byproduct of their duty. One of their biggest strengths, as a whole, is their individuality in comparison to Astartes. Marines place high value on the bonds of brotherhood and discipline, and for the most part have uniform strengths and weaknesses as a legion. One legion may be great at melee combat and zerg rushing to overwhelm an enemy quickly, while another may prefer stealth and precision strikes (think XII v XIX). With the Custodes, that individualism means each one can specialize differently, and anyone taking action against the Emperor will probably end up facing a Custodes specializing in countering that action.

 

So when you see Custodes like RA and Valdor, the former of which killed Legionaries like Legionaries killed unaugmented humans and the latter with blade skill to match a primarch, they aren't necessarily a good baseline to assume for all Custodes. They're all supremely skilled warriors, but some will be omgplznerf OP, others will be less skilled/powerful (relatively speaking) in that respect, but more skilled at say, infiltration or hunting spies.

 

That individuality is excellent for bodyguards and killing daemons, but when it comes to all out warfare, they're going to have a much tougher time of it.

 

The siege will highlight just how distinct that difference between mankind's greatest praetorian and their greatest soldier is. Custodes will make a good showing in smaller battles, but when the scale increases, the legions will have a great deal more coherency and will whittle the Custodes down.

 

At least, this is how I understand it. I could be totally wrong, but I think I've got a pretty good grasp of it.

[bluntblade]

I don't think I've ever felt so flattered in my time on this board.

[NKCougar]

edited, original content of reply didn't add to thread.

 

So: Sanguinius v Angron (spoiler tagged, old lore and speculation)

 

So in the siege, Angron delivered the terms to palace defenders. The newly daemonic Angron turned redshirts into brown pants and their resolve buckled until Sanguinius arrives and stares at Angron. Old fluff leaves room for interpretation, saying it was unknown what they communicated to each other, or if they even did.

 

I don't know which I would prefer. If telepathy occurs, I'm hoping it starts out with the typical cheesy 'why brother' thing for about a sentence, until Angron says 'Time is up terms are declined, kill them all'. It's the siege of Terra, I'm sure everyone knows that a peaceful resolution will never happen, and I'm equally sure that Angron would have zero patience for that conversation.

 

Alternately, no communication, just Sanguinius and his hate filled bishie stare til the attack is ordered.

 

Thoughts?

Edited June 25, 2017 by NKCougar

[Typhoid_Tony]

Seeing as Lorgar was essentially the starter of the HH it would be good to see him either:

 

Killed off realising moments before death what betrayal had caused Humanity.

 

Or

 

Understanding why he's become a hermit which I would presume is because he's telling himself he was right all along and The Emperor is a god after all.

 I don't think it needs to be either of these. I would much prefer an ascended Lorgar who is swallowed totally by the Great Game and loses sight of everything he fought for and didn't even realise it. For me the depiction of daemon primarchs have really left out the slave to darkness element. They just seem uber powerful, immortal, nigh on invincible gods of war and I think with Lorgar there is the potential to re-shape what it means to ascend. The recent depiction of Mortarion in Dark Imperium is encouraging and am looking at seeing more of it.

Sure killing him off at the end of the heresy might create a dramatic moment in a novel but I feel it would be colossal waste of potential story development in 40K and as others have stated there must be more to the Siege of Terra then several primarch on primarch encounters. 

[Carach]

dorn vs pert should be the army chess game. its a battle of the mind that has been their rivalry, not physical prowess. Could perhaps do a lil hologram chat between the two at some point (pert monologue on the verge of victory only for horus to ruin it all by lowering shields? - when i say monologue, i don't mean a ridiculous evil lecture, i mean a proper meaningful, and perhaps even a little emotionless.. statement of fact style..)

 

or hell it might even be better for them to never meet, nor have a conversation. Merely the little statements they make for one another in their absence that we have seen in previous books.

 

I personally think magnus shouldn't get a primarch vs primarch battle. Think he should, like the AL, be a bit.. contradictory in his decisions - but then i havent read the crimson king yet to see what direction he has gone in so dunno if that's a way to go now.

 

Omegon vs Dorn would be a damn good scene if done properly. Proper emotion shown by Omegon, devastated and half broken from the loss of his truest brother. Dorn all shocked and surprised. Taken aback. 

 

otherwise i dont think there needs to be all these primarch fights beyond the obvious stuff already established to occur. Might need a couple of showdowns to hold lines/when first breaches are made i guess. Angron needs to banished/shackled again somehow. 

[bluntblade]

I prefer the idea of two internal monologues running through Dorn and Pert's scenes. Perturabo interrogating the spectre his brother gets twisted into in his mind, Dorn wondering how much he did to create the vengeful monster tearing down his walls and his sons.

[b1soul]

In response to Aaron...

 

1. I agree that Blood Games does not preclude later fluff changes. Abnett's statements were very clear but not something necessarily binding upon other authours for all eternity.

 

2. I don't think First Heretic and MoM overtly contradict each other.

 

After all, Ra and Vendatha are different individuals. However, because Ra is so powerful, the Custodes "come across" as more powerful in MoM. That's the first impression. Of course, you can always qualify this and that, to maintain consistency.

 

My main point is that FH's "Soldiers vs. Warriors" angle was not highlighted in MoM's Astartes vs. Custodes engagements.

 

This could be for a number of reasons...and is not somehow bad or wrong. As an authour, you're not obligated to write your battles in certain ways to satisfy my preferences.

Edited June 26, 2017 by b1soul

[HeritorA]

When the HH series finally reaches the Siege, which confrontations are you looking forward to the most...not necessarily fights but I'd of course welcome a few well-written, epic throw-downs

 

Are you looking forward to unexpected revelations, perhaps even retcons?

 

Any general thoughts on how you'd like the encounters to be handled?

 

I can think of . . .

 

Horus vs. Sanguinius

 

Angron vs. Sanguinius (perhaps just a stare down but maybe they go at it)

 

Khan vs. Mortarion at the Lion's Gate (potential duel)

 

Khan vs. Fulgrim (less likely)

 

Who could Dorn face? I would like him to face Curze...but Curze has been absurdly over-used

Horus vs Sangy - that's a breaker point so it would be (maybe with some changes) but will end as in a lore.

Angron vs Sangy = could be but could be not. Lore mentioned only Sangy duel with Ka'Bandha.

Khan vs Mortarion at the Lion's Gate (potential duel) - almost verified byy Wraight.

Khan vs. Fulgrim (less likely) - could be a surprise, but do not think that would be a case.

Dorn could face Perturabo or Angron for sure. It's not cemented in lore - so they could do whatever they please.

 

Curze as per lore/fluff wasn't even on Terra during a Siege. Night Lords were as different warbands but Curze wasn't. And he would not be - Cause he will stay with Lion at the Ruinstorm, I think.

[Mazryonh]

I might be going against the grain here, but I don't particularly care to see more Primarch v Primarch fights during the Siege. I personally think the series is at its strongest when the Primarchs remain nigh-mythical figures of all, best experienced through other character viewpoints from around and below them.

Everyone likes to see the answer to "who would win" matches between fictional figures like the Primarchs. That's something that keeps people buying tickets to professional wrestling matches or buying crossover comic books after all.  And sometimes seeing the Primarchs own viewpoints shows how humanly flawed they can be, if not always believably flawed. 

 

Even the Primarchs can only be in one place at any one time (well, except for maybe Magnus post-shards or whatever the hell is going on with him). They should be droplets in an ocean in the face of what's happening during the Siege of Terra. Take Dorn and Perturabo, for instance. The fortifier and the siegemaster. I'm sorry, but in what universe would they be having a face-to-face confrontation, much less a fistfight?

 

I can think of one way that Perturabo and Dorn could have a fistfight.  The traitor primarchs generally have serious axes to grind, and Perturabo is no exception. 

 

A Vox conversation between two angry brothers:

Perturabo: (Commanding his forces) Ur gettin rekt, m8! LOLOLOL!

Dorn: Fite me IRL and we'll see who'll get rekt. 

Perturabo: (see the Aeto Dios blowing up several of his forces) Ur on! (teleports with his robotic bodyguard unit to try and take out Dorn personally)

Getting the traitor primarchs to lose their tempers and act foolishly is a perfectly valid war strategy.  And Alpharius can effectively be in more than one place, because his blood can enhance more than one Alpha Legionnaire at a time.

 

I think personally think Dorn needs to personally face some of his wayward brothers. He's the head of the Defence of Terra, and whoever presents Dorn's severed head to Horus will gain a lot of favour with Horus and severely demoralize the defenders at the same time, so there will be no shortage of people who will try.  Aside from Perturabo, I would like to see Dorn face two more of his brothers, along with the other defending Primarchs to face what they fear.

 

Dorn vs. Curze

 

Not only has Dorn remarked that Curze is the only thing that Dorn fears, I think there is one more way for Curze, at the end, to get some more of the audience's sympathy.  Curze could suddenly appear before Dorn (after having snuck through the bowels of the Imperial Palace or having teleported directly from SPOILERS), right in the middle of Dorn's CIC, but after a brief duel, a visibly distraught Curze comes clean and says he has come alone and is only in Dorn's presence to ask to speak to their father one last time.  It'd be a nice way for Curze to follow up on Sanguinius' offer of forgiveness (i.e., if Sanguinius could find it within himself to offer the long-suffering Curze that, why not their father?), and it would also be a good opportunity for Curze (and the audience), if his sole request is granted, to learn just why the Emperor made him a demigod of terror and murder, someone who in the end was more of a detriment than a benefit to the Imperium, and why the Emperor did so if he was likely to have foreseen that outcome through his prescience.

 

Dorn vs. ?????

 

Not only would it shock the living daylights out of Dorn to see Omegon acting as the "the real" Alpharius before him, this would be an opportunity for us to see how Omegon would fight when enhanced by Alpharius' blood. It would be very interesting if Omegon is revealed to be the reason why Dorn disappeared before the War of the Beast.

 

Khan vs. Daemon Mortarion

 

"There is nowhere left to run, brother." 

 

Mortarion owes Khan a debt after the latter slipped the former's clutches back in Path of Heaven.  The Khan in this case is out of his element because he cannot hit-and-run and leave the Imperial Palace or the Lion's Gate Spaceport undefended.  I'd like to see what the writers come up with so the Khan manages to survive. 

 

Sanguinius vs. Daemon Fulgrim

 

Both Fulgrim and Sanguinius were walking specimens of physical perfection, and I want to read Sanguinius' reaction when he sees the monster that Fulgrim has fully become. 

 

Alright, this came off a little more of a rant than I'd intended. My point is that I don't think the setting or the story is particularly well-served by putting all of the focus on the Primarchs. To reduce the Siege to a series of Primarch confrontations diminishes the scale of it, and in some ways the tragedy of it. Some of this perspective is undoubtedly colored by the 8th Edition background, which comes off as "And then Roboute Guilliman went and personally punched out every threat to the Imperium, from Baal to Macragge!" Whatever happened to, "But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."?

 

Let's say that the Primarch vs. Primarch fights are just the highlight reel for the Heresy.  With the right author it can work. Know No Fear was very well received, features a similar if smaller-scale scenario to the Siege of Terra, and it wasn't just about Guilliman punching every heretic's head off.

[Kelborn]

Do we already have other Daemonprimarchs besides Fulgrim and Angron during the Siege of Terra?

 

I always thought that Mortarion, Perturabo and the rest ascended after the Siege and fully embracing chaos.

[NKCougar]

Do we already have other Daemonprimarchs besides Fulgrim and Angron during the Siege of Terra?

 

I always thought that Mortarion, Perturabo and the rest ascended after the Siege and fully embracing chaos.

Spoiler tagging, but yes.

 

Mortarion will, for some reason, kill his Navigators then let Typhon guide their ships; at which point the first captain gives his entire legion to Nurgle.

 

Magnus, I think? I'm not sure what his situation is, but I'm pretty sure he's a daemon now.

Edited June 27, 2017 by NKCougar