Primarch Confrontations at the Siege of Terra

[Augustus]

I thought Khârn dies, his men are compelled to bring him back and he is then brought back by Khorne. Granted this could be allegory, but I like it.

 

Typhon kills the navigators. Promising he can lead them through the warp. They become becalmed and Papa Nurgle subjects them all to how special brand of love till they give in.

 

I want Pert to somehow have a direct line to Dorn. He taunts him relentlessly. Just to see the drama unfold :)

Edited June 27, 2017 by Augustus

[HeritorA]

I thought Khârn dies, his men are compelled to bring him back and he is then brought back by Khorne. Granted this could be allegory, but I like it.

 

Typhon kills the navigators. Promising he can lead them through the warp. They become becalmed and Papa Nurgle subjects them all to how special brand of love till they give in.

 

I want Pert to somehow have a direct line to Dorn. He taunts him relentlessly. Just to see the drama unfold

Dorn could go into duel with Perturabo. After all it would be a warfare between siegemasters on all levels - mind, armies and body.

 

Don't think Sangy will fight Fulgrim. Maybe it will be a surprise - but it is pointless. No logic - plus Fulgrim was away on Terra enslaving humans and not sieging the Palace - he was bored

[Angel_of_Blood]

Hmmm, much as I'd like to see more of Dorn fighting. I've always imagined Dorn deep in the Palace in some uber command centre, utterly focused on organising the defence. Sending units here and there, sacrificing units or areas when they're lost or to make another gain somewhere else. All the while paralleled by Perturabo within the Cavea Ferrum doing the same. Both thinking of the other, wanting to take to the field, but instead remaining at the command centres where they are most needed.

[Indefragable]

 

A)

Everyone likes to see the answer to "who would win" matches between fictional figures like the Primarchs. That's something that keeps people buying tickets to professional wrestling matches or buying crossover comic books after all.  And sometimes seeing the Primarchs own viewpoints shows how humanly flawed they can be, if not always believably flawed. 

 

 

B )

 

Dorn vs. Curze

 

Not only has Dorn remarked that Curze is the only thing that Dorn fears, I think there is one more way for Curze, at the end, to get some more of the audience's sympathy.  Curze could suddenly appear before Dorn (after having snuck through the bowels of the Imperial Palace or having teleported directly from SPOILERS), right in the middle of Dorn's CIC, but after a brief duel, a visibly distraught Curze comes clean and says he has come alone and is only in Dorn's presence to ask to speak to their father one last time.  It'd be a nice way for Curze to follow up on Sanguinius' offer of forgiveness (i.e., if Sanguinius could find it within himself to offer the long-suffering Curze that, why not their father?), and it would also be a good opportunity for Curze (and the audience), if his sole request is granted, to learn just why the Emperor made him a demigod of terror and murder, someone who in the end was more of a detriment than a benefit to the Imperium, and why the Emperor did so if he was likely to have foreseen that outcome through his prescience.

 

 

 

 

 C)

Sanguinius vs. Daemon Fulgrim

 

Both Fulgrim and Sanguinius were walking specimens of physical perfection, and I want to read Sanguinius' reaction when he sees the monster that Fulgrim has fully become. 

 

 

 

A) I am quoting this forever. Right on. That's why "Brady vs Manning" etc... never ceased to draw huge crowds and TV ratings even if you didn't give a crap about either player or team. It's what keeps boxing alive. Fantastically stated, brother.

 

"Who would win in a fight: Mike Ditka or God?"

"Trick question. Mike Ditka IS God."

 

B ) Love this idea. Very cool, but TBH, I can't help feel that we've seen enough of Curze so far, especially considering the page count (or lack thereof) for other primarchs.

 

C) Besides the who is faster* thing, this could be really interesting to see how far Fulgrim has fallen. Although I don't know if that would actually work, since the motivations for each Primarch are so different. Fulgrim was about perfection for his own sake, while Sanguinius was about perfection for those around him. I almost feel like Sanguinius would sort of just brush off Fulgrim. Interesting idea to explore.

 

*

Hidden Content

Top 5 fastest (like, if Initiative was still a stat) Primarchs?

-Fulgrim

-Sanguinius

-Khan

-Curze

-????

Edited June 27, 2017 by Indefragable

[Mellow]

Fulgrim is definitely the fastest.

 

Sanguinius couldn't even hit Curze on a one on one let alone kill him. They are both a side of the same coin in their ability to read future events.

[NKCougar]

Hmmm, much as I'd like to see more of Dorn fighting. I've always imagined Dorn deep in the Palace in some uber command centre, utterly focused on organising the defence. Sending units here and there, sacrificing units or areas when they're lost or to make another gain somewhere else. All the while paralleled by Perturabo within the Cavea Ferrum doing the same. Both thinking of the other, wanting to take to the field, but instead remaining at the command centres where they are most needed.

I agree, a physical duel is unnecessary between those two - let them duke it out via proxy, to decide if Dorn truly deserved the honor of being the Emperor's Praetorian, or if Perturabo had always been the better. An actual fight between them would be far less interesting IMO.

 

As far as who is the fastest (can't figure out how to quote two different posts on mobile)

 

Magnus. He's pretty much a walking cheat code, though. Outside of him, though? I would go with either Angron (he's terrifyingly quick) or Russ (UE, watch one of his sons swing an axe so quickly that Guilliman doesn't think he could have dodged) - the Lion could be a contender as well, if only because of 1) his shared jetbike fetish with the Khan and 2) that dirty stab against Curze? Done so quickly that Corswain saw them talking one moment, then suddenly a giant sword was sticking out of the Night Haunter's back.

[Indefragable]

Fulgrim is definitely the fastest.

 

Sanguinius couldn't even hit Curze on a one on one let alone kill him. They are both a side of the same coin in their ability to read future events.

 

Considering Fulgrim/EC/Slaanesh's "thing" is high-initiative, it's kind of a given that Fulgrim would be fastest.

 

Although like many things, I think it's a matter of degrees. Fulgrim is the fastest because he throws a 98mph fastball, while Sangy throws 96, Khan 95, and even Mortarion can throw a 90mph. It's not like Fulgrim is going 300mph and Morty is 25mph. Lorgar

"the weakest" gets double-tapped by a Titan plasma weapon and survives

while Mortarion

the "toughest"  "only" gets shot a few times by a Stormbird and is recuperating for weeks

. Again, a matter of degrees.

 

Ok, filtering for fanboy factor, and the fact that it's already been a season since I read Pharos, but if I recall....

Wasn't it pretty much a draw between Curze and Sanguinius? Curze can push Sangy to his limits--needing a bit of psychic edge to block a few blows in time--but can't kill him. Though he certainly boasts that he can*. Sangy, on the other hand, is pretty much on the defensive the whole time, with nary an offensive sword swing until the end when he refuses to kill Curze. I remember that Curze is basically like "go ahead, I'll let you kill me" but I don't recall the specifics of whether or not Sangy gained the upper hand or if Curze just dropped his guard to taunt (although he was kind of serious).

 

*at this point, we have no reference points to know how accurate Curze's boasts are, one way or another. It's not we've seen both of them fight Dorn, or the Lion, or anything.

 

X-factors:

• Sanguinius was in just a bath robe during the fight. Take that for what you will
• In Unremembered Empire Curze holds his own against both the Lion and Guiliman 1v2. Take that for waht you will

 

Part of what makes being a fan of this stuff so awesome/infuriating, such a love/hate fandom.

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Indefragable

[bluntblade]

Since when is the Khan slower than Sanguinius? I suspect he'll be ahead of Fulgrim, if perhaps not quite as skilled with a sword. But when it comes to the Primarchs, varying melee prowess is really a matter of 0.00001% differences.

[Indefragable]

Since when is the Khan slower than Sanguinius? I suspect he'll be ahead of Fulgrim, if perhaps not quite as skilled with a sword. But when it comes to the Primarchs, varying melee prowess is really a matter of 0.00001% differences.

 

We don't know. Speculation. Considering the +1I bonus BA traditionally have had in 7th Ed/HH, I made the educated guess that Sanguinius would be up there in speed. In the HH series Khan is shown being particularly fast, even by Primarch standards. So who knows yet.

[hopkins]

top trumps again?

[Mazryonh]

Don't think Sangy will fight Fulgrim. Maybe it will be a surprise - but it is pointless. No logic - plus Fulgrim was away on Terra enslaving humans and not sieging the Palace - he was bored

 

Since the most serious Terran resistance is centred around the Imperial Palace (and certainly the Emperor would have ordered many valuable Terran or Lunar people ordinarily capable of defending themselves, like the Terrawatt Clan and the Selenar cults, to take shelter in the Palace), it's likely that Daemon Fulgrim will become bored with hunting down and sacrificing stragglers found on the rest of the planet, who are not as likely to put up any real fight.  

 

Testing the Palace's defences is going to be something he'll decide to pass the time with sooner or later.  The writers could even take a page from the Old Testament (specifically the Battle of Jericho where Jericho's walls were brought down with trumpets and shouting) and have Fulgrim subject a portion of the palace to an entire Slaaneshi symphony "performed" with his Noise Marines, Sonic Dreadnoughts, and the screams of sacrificial slaves. Just hearing that unholy noise for hours on end (and since part of it is psychic, walls wouldn't protect against it entirely) would probably drive many of the defenders hopelessly mad and be one of the more nightmarish parts of the Siege. Sanguinius would be a prime candidate to stop that music, as might his Death Company who are already insane and wouldn't care about the music.

 

Besides, according to established canon, by the time of the Siege, Sanguinius is running out of time to strut his stuff.  His fans would most likely want to see him at his most heroic, including as many fights against Traitor Primarchs as is believble, before his destined end. 

 

Hmmm, much as I'd like to see more of Dorn fighting. I've always imagined Dorn deep in the Palace in some uber command centre, utterly focused on organising the defence. Sending units here and there, sacrificing units or areas when they're lost or to make another gain somewhere else. All the while paralleled by Perturabo within the Cavea Ferrum doing the same. Both thinking of the other, wanting to take to the field, but instead remaining at the command centres where they are most needed.

 

Yes, but given what happened in Praetorian of Dorn, Dorn has proved that even he understands the value of targeting commanders (even in personal combat) like Corax did. Calling out Perturabo and making him angry enough to risk a personal fight is a good way to deprive the Traitors of one of their primary nodes of Command and Control, because both were among Perturabo's specialties (second only to Horus, of course). Though given the rules we have for Dorn and Perturabo, Dorn might have a very hard time going up against Perturabo's Forgebreaker . . .

 

A) I am quoting this forever. Right on. That's why "Brady vs Manning" etc... never ceased to draw huge crowds and TV ratings even if you didn't give a crap about either player or team. It's what keeps boxing alive. Fantastically stated, brother.

 

"Who would win in a fight: Mike Ditka or God?"

"Trick question. Mike Ditka IS God."

 

Thanks. Anyone who watches sports commercials (especially for UFC/MMA/Boxing matches) knows that the promoters love to hype up "Matches of the Century." It more often than not works. The same is true of many comic book plotlines, and don't several Black Library writers already have experience in writing for comic books?

 

B ) Love this idea. Very cool, but TBH, I can't help feel that we've seen enough of Curze so far, especially considering the page count (or lack thereof) for other primarchs.

 

Due in no small part to the efforts of ADB, the Night Lords and by extension Curze have become fan favourites, and I think both deserve more than just a footnote role in the Siege of Terra. Besides, if Curze gets to speak in person with his father one last time, this could be a great opportunity to plant a "plot seed" for Curze to still be relevant to the "Gathering Storm" plotline, possibly with something valuable he could pass on even if he is still dead by that time. Besides, I'd very much like to find out whether Sanguinius was right about Curze in the end--that Curze could still find redemption. Also, just because Curze gets more pages for the Siege doesn't mean the other Primarchs can't get more of their own.

 

C) Besides the who is faster* thing, this could be really interesting to see how far Fulgrim has fallen. Although I don't know if that would actually work, since the motivations for each Primarch are so different. Fulgrim was about perfection for his own sake, while Sanguinius was about perfection for those around him. I almost feel like Sanguinius would sort of just brush off Fulgrim. Interesting idea to explore.

 

Sanguinius might say something like "I know my days are numbered, but I already know those days have been better than the eternity you will have." Either way, the stark contrast of how each sought perfection would be a great thing to read about once they meet in person. 

[bluntblade]

top trumps again?

Hence the 0.00001% remark.

[NKCougar]

I want to see Malcador exercise his mind at the Siege as well. He's the strongest human psyker in the galaxy, which, against the primarchs may not count for a whole lot (or maybe it will, I've seen him referred to as possibly on Lorgar's level of strength) - but his age and experience would probably let him work it in far more subtle ways. Malcador clouding a primarchs mind in a subtle enough way to have him make a mistake and kill his men would be incredible, perhaps even blasting one away from whatever wall he is at and preventing a breach in a less subtle exercise. I'd like to see the most powerful human psyker in action before the end.

 

Besides, according to established canon, by the time of the Siege, Sanguinius is running out of time to strut his stuff. His fans would most likely want to see him at his most heroic, including as many fights against Traitor Primarchs as is believble, before his destined end.

 

Don't you say that. Don't you even think that. I have this irrational (or is it?) fear in the back of my mind that they're going to do something to leave it open for Sanguinius to return in 40k. Actually, now that I think about it, they wouldn't even need to make any changes. Speculation and slight spoilers for short stories and Master of Mankind below.

 

Edit: writing this made me feel dirty. I need a shower.

 

I just realized that there is a way to bring Sanguinius back. While writing the above, the Sanguinor popped into my head - let's discuss him first. The Sanguinor is one of the original Sanguinary Guard, their primarchs huscarls - he walked, fought, and talked with his father in the Crusade and the Heresy that followed - he has a closer connection to Sanguinius than any 40K marine could. The creation process (after the final two lots were drawn) seems to me to resemble a ritual of sorts, a sacrifice - both of the SanGuard sacrificed themselves: one, his life, the other, his identity. After the lots were drawn and one was killed, Azkaellon puts a golden mask of Sanguinius' face - crafted by Sanguinius' hand (important!) on the winner, and basically burned it onto the Astartes face so that it could never come off. In effect, that marine became Sanguinius - although he was only a standard Astartes and his position was more as Herald and a decoy, for times he did act as his father and more importantly was seen as his father.

 

As we've seen, these things have power in the 40K universe. Now, to the next part.

 

In Master of Mankind, during the Last Charge of the Ten Thousand, the Emperor floods the Webway with golden light - and in that golden light we see the spirits of all loyal Astartes and Custodes that have died to treachery. More importantly, we see Ferrus Manus. From what I understand, the Emperor has some sort of connection to human souls, or at least those genetically connected to him like the Legionaries, Custodes, and Primarchs.

 

Now we are going to go back to the Sanguinor, but now we're talking 40k, not 30. The Sanguinor in 40K appears to be popping in and out of reality to aid the Blood Angel forces during times of great need. Why this is important is the influence of the warp - the Sanguinor was originally human, and is now moving in and out of the warp, so the potential is there for him to have a body that is used to large amounts of warp energy.

 

The Emperor (as shown in Dark Imperium) has lost a great deal of subtlety, and likely sanity.

 

Finally, the conclusion: a very specific set of events have to occur - starting with Abaddon reaching the throne room. When he reaches the throne room, Dante must be there, to fulfill what he thinks is the prophecy of one shining warrior (him) defending the Emperor at humanity's darkest hour. The Sanguinor will appear as well, either fighting with Dante, or after his death. If he fights with Dante, the Blood Angel will sacrifice (just like a BA was sacrificed to create the Sanguinor) himself to save the Sanguinor, and the Emperor will have no choice but to see an uncanny resemblence to the duel aboard the Vengeful Spirit and Sanguinius' death. If it arrives after, same deal - more appropriate, even, as it will mirror the Emperor's arrival after Sanguinius' death. Either way, the Emperor sees the death mask of Sanguinius, which perfectly resembles his face - see that his son does not have the soul given to him, and try to put it back (this is the Emperor after levelling up Dark Souls style a few hundred million times, I don't think it would be a stretch). Since the Sanguinor has been popping in and out of the warp for so long, he's bound to have a pretty high tolerance for it, meaning he will be able to contain Sanguinius' soul - at least temporarily; perhaps Sanguinius Reborn only has the time to duel Abaddon, perhaps not - and will proceed to duel Abaddon.

 

Edit: didn't explain the last paragraph clearly. The Emperor's attention will either be drawn to the throne room by Dante's death (Blood Angel sacrificing himself to give the Emperor a chance to live) or Abaddons presence. Once the Sanguinor arrives, the Emperor will sense a few things: the amount of warp energy around/in the Sanguinor (from constant exposure) , the presence / psychic mark of Sanguinius, as he made the mask himself, and lastly, I'm not entirely sure how to word this, but his proximity and connection to Sanguinius along with the fact that people (loyal Legionaries, even, whose souls would be part of him) saw him as Sanguinius would leave some sort of psychic mark, which would serve to strengthen the bond between them and facilitate the transfer of Sanguinius' soul.

 

With Abaddon, his beefed up chaosy-ness, his connection to his father, and wielding the weapon that killed the Emperor and Sanguinius would serve to bring back the memories (and possibly induce some sort of reaction from the emperor), which could positively impact the transfer of Sanguinius' soul.

 

So happens the worst thing ever - I hate myself for thinking of it.

Edited June 27, 2017 by NKCougar

[Kastor Krieg]

If it is really done this way, I will be SO TOTALLY OK WITH IT.

[Mazryonh]

I want to see Malcador exercise his mind at the Siege as well. He's the strongest human psyker in the galaxy, which, against the primarchs may not count for a whole lot (or maybe it will, I've seen him referred to as possibly on Lorgar's level of strength) - but his age and experience would probably let him work it in far more subtle ways. Malcador clouding a primarchs mind in a subtle enough way to have him make a mistake and kill his men would be incredible, perhaps even blasting one away from whatever wall he is at and preventing a breach in a less subtle exercise. I'd like to see the most powerful human psyker in action before the end.

 

If that happens (and it should, given that Malcador himself doesn't have much time left to shine before meeting his pre-established end in previous canon), there should be at least one scene where Malcador says to the Emperor "If Magnus were here, this would be much easier" (reflecting on how Magnus would in fact be there if Horus hadn't sent the Space Wolves to exterminate the Thousand Sons). So maybe something like Malcador using his psychic strength to shield specific areas from Titan-class weapons fire when Palace's shields are down in specific sectors might work, whereas Magnus might have been able to shield the entire continent the Palace is on. I hope at least Malcador's Knights-Errant are helping with the defense as well, probably with banishing Daemons with some borrowed strength from Malcador too. 

 

 

Besides, according to established canon, by the time of the Siege, Sanguinius is running out of time to strut his stuff. His fans would most likely want to see him at his most heroic, including as many fights against Traitor Primarchs as is believble, before his destined end.

Don't you say that. Don't you even think that. I have this irrational (or is it?) fear in the back of my mind that they're going to do something to leave it open for Sanguinius to return in 40k. Actually, now that I think about it, they wouldn't even need to make any changes. Speculation and slight spoilers for short stories and Master of Mankind below.

 

Edit: writing this made me feel dirty. I need a shower.

 

I just realized that there is a way to bring Sanguinius back. While writing the above, the Sanguinor popped into my head - let's discuss him first. The Sanguinor is one of the original Sanguinary Guard, their primarchs huscarls - he walked, fought, and talked with his father in the Crusade and the Heresy that followed - he has a closer connection to Sanguinius than any 40K marine could. The creation process (after the final two lots were drawn) seems to me to resemble a ritual of sorts, a sacrifice - both of the SanGuard sacrificed themselves: one, his life, the other, his identity. After the lots were drawn and one was killed, Azkaellon puts a golden mask of Sanguinius' face - crafted by Sanguinius' hand (important!) on the winner, and basically burned it onto the Astartes face so that it could never come off. In effect, that marine became Sanguinius - although he was only a standard Astartes and his position was more as Herald and a decoy, for times he did act as his father and more importantly was seen as his father.

 

As we've seen, these things have power in the 40K universe. Now, to the next part.

 

In Master of Mankind, during the Last Charge of the Ten Thousand, the Emperor floods the Webway with golden light - and in that golden light we see the spirits of all loyal Astartes and Custodes that have died to treachery. More importantly, we see Ferrus Manus. From what I understand, the Emperor has some sort of connection to human souls, or at least those genetically connected to him like the Legionaries, Custodes, and Primarchs.

 

Now we are going to go back to the Sanguinor, but now we're talking 40k, not 30. The Sanguinor in 40K appears to be popping in and out of reality to aid the Blood Angel forces during times of great need. Why this is important is the influence of the warp - the Sanguinor was originally human, and is now moving in and out of the warp, so the potential is there for him to have a body that is used to large amounts of warp energy.

 

The Emperor (as shown in Dark Imperium) has lost a great deal of subtlety, and likely sanity.

 

Finally, the conclusion: a very specific set of events have to occur - starting with Abaddon reaching the throne room. When he reaches the throne room, Dante must be there, to fulfill what he thinks is the prophecy of one shining warrior (him) defending the Emperor at humanity's darkest hour. The Sanguinor will appear as well, either fighting with Dante, or after his death. If he fights with Dante, the Blood Angel will sacrifice (just like a BA was sacrificed to create the Sanguinor) himself to save the Sanguinor, and the Emperor will have no choice but to see an uncanny resemblence to the duel aboard the Vengeful Spirit and Sanguinius' death. If it arrives after, same deal - more appropriate, even, as it will mirror the Emperor's arrival after Sanguinius' death. Either way, the Emperor sees the death mask of Sanguinius, which perfectly resembles his face - see that his son does not have the soul given to him, and try to put it back (this is the Emperor after levelling up Dark Souls style a few hundred million times, I don't think it would be a stretch). Since the Sanguinor has been popping in and out of the warp for so long, he's bound to have a pretty high tolerance for it, meaning he will be able to contain Sanguinius' soul - at least temporarily; perhaps Sanguinius Reborn only has the time to duel Abaddon, perhaps not - and will proceed to duel Abaddon.

 

Edit: didn't explain the last paragraph clearly. The Emperor's attention will either be drawn to the throne room by Dante's death (Blood Angel sacrificing himself to give the Emperor a chance to live) or Abaddons presence. Once the Sanguinor arrives, the Emperor will sense a few things: the amount of warp energy around/in the Sanguinor (from constant exposure) , the presence / psychic mark of Sanguinius, as he made the mask himself, and lastly, I'm not entirely sure how to word this, but his proximity and connection to Sanguinius along with the fact that people (loyal Legionaries, even, whose souls would be part of him) saw him as Sanguinius would leave some sort of psychic mark, which would serve to strengthen the bond between them and facilitate the transfer of Sanguinius' soul.

 

With Abaddon, his beefed up chaosy-ness, his connection to his father, and wielding the weapon that killed the Emperor and Sanguinius would serve to bring back the memories (and possibly induce some sort of reaction from the emperor), which could positively impact the transfer of Sanguinius' soul.

 

So happens the worst thing ever - I hate myself for thinking of it.

 

Don't hate yourself. I'm sure worse fiction has been written about this kind of thing. 

 

But as for letting Sanguinius survive his destined end or allowing him to come back in time for the "Gathering Storm," what about this older plot thread?

 

Fabius Bile is known to have made perfect clones of Ferrus Manus in order to try and placate his patron Daemon Fulgrim, and also was working on a clone of Sanguinius as well. A clone of either might be the perfect vessel for either Primarch's soul to reincarnate in.

[1ncarnadine]

^Just throwing my 2 cents in on this, but 

 

It wouldn't even have to be very complicated. The existence of Arvida/Ianus leaves open a lot of possibilities for other psychic primarchs. Namely, that the Sanguinor carries a psychic fragment of Sanguinius in himself. In that way Sanguinius wouldn't really come back, but maybe just part of him. So when you hear people that are in the know saying that Sanguinius still dies at the Siege, they're not lying, but it does still leave room for a big model for the BA with Primarch-equivalent rules.

 

I think it would still be a bit silly. But this is a mainly model-driven business we're talking about.

 

Anyway, liking a lot of the neat ideas where Dorn and Perturabo spar, but not physically. Thinking on it, what I really want to see on Terra aren't Primarch fights. I couldn't care less "who beats up who," although I won't say no to more visceral Primarch combat scenes like we've seen in Betrayer, Praetorian of Dorn, and Scars. At the end of the day, what I'm looking forward to are Primarch interactions, and how the ways they collide reflects back on the nature of these characters. 

 

Especially the idea of Dorn becoming aware of Omegon being around, and real. I didn't realize how much I want to see that until some other folks brought it up, but that could be pretty great.

[Augustus]

For clarification: IIRC Dorn is afraid of learning Horus' reason for rebelling not Curze.

[HeritorA]

Mazryonh

Sangy could fight Fulgrim, but Fulgrim was hardly listening Horus at the end of the 'Vengeful Spirit' and went all hedonism first and 'feth' you all in the 'Path of Heaven'.

Maybe he will come to the Palace - but only of his own volition to test his skills.

 

As for the Curze - he wouldn't be at Terra at all.

1) Right now he is a 'captive' of a DA and travelling to Terra with Sangy, Lion and Buirlly. We all know that Sangy will arrive but Buirlly and Lion does not. Any particular reason for Sangy to take the biggest terror maniac killer (Curze) into the most guarded room of the Imperial Palace? For justice, out of spite? By that point - all 3 IS Primarchs are logical and practical to a fault. And do you think where would be a NL leftover force (to free Curze) to take over the combined warfleet of BA, DA and smurfs?

2) As you said yourself - 'Due in no small part to the efforts of ADB, the Night Lords and by extension Curze have become fan favourites', but since then his appearances as a boogeyman all over the IS and from different author - totally ruined his visage. And duel - really?

 

At Imperium Secundus he dueled 4 Primarchs! With Lion he duelled 4 TIMES! That's enough.

 

I would be glad if he will simply limp to Tsagualsa and stay where till his death.

[Kastor Krieg]

I could also see the "BA large model" niche filled by "uplifted Sanguinor" going the way of Yncarne, more or less.

[Indefragable]

 

A )

I want to see Malcador exercise his mind at the Siege as well. He's the strongest human psyker in the galaxy, which, against the primarchs may not count for a whole lot (or maybe it will, I've seen him referred to as possibly on Lorgar's level of strength) - but his age and experience would probably let him work it in far more subtle ways. Malcador clouding a primarchs mind in a subtle enough way to have him make a mistake and kill his men would be incredible, perhaps even blasting one away from whatever wall he is at and preventing a breach in a less subtle exercise. I'd like to see the most powerful human psyker in action before the end.

 

B )

Edit: writing this made me feel dirty. I need a shower.

 

I just realized that there is a way to bring Sanguinius back. While writing the above, the Sanguinor popped into my head - let's discuss him first. The Sanguinor is one of the original Sanguinary Guard, their primarchs huscarls - he walked, fought, and talked with his father in the Crusade and the Heresy that followed - he has a closer connection to Sanguinius than any 40K marine could. The creation process (after the final two lots were drawn) seems to me to resemble a ritual of sorts, a sacrifice - both of the SanGuard sacrificed themselves: one, his life, the other, his identity. After the lots were drawn and one was killed, Azkaellon puts a golden mask of Sanguinius' face - crafted by Sanguinius' hand (important!) on the winner, and basically burned it onto the Astartes face so that it could never come off. In effect, that marine became Sanguinius - although he was only a standard Astartes and his position was more as Herald and a decoy, for times he did act as his father and more importantly was seen as his father.

 

As we've seen, these things have power in the 40K universe. Now, to the next part.

 

In Master of Mankind, during the Last Charge of the Ten Thousand, the Emperor floods the Webway with golden light - and in that golden light we see the spirits of all loyal Astartes and Custodes that have died to treachery. More importantly, we see Ferrus Manus. From what I understand, the Emperor has some sort of connection to human souls, or at least those genetically connected to him like the Legionaries, Custodes, and Primarchs.

 

Now we are going to go back to the Sanguinor, but now we're talking 40k, not 30. The Sanguinor in 40K appears to be popping in and out of reality to aid the Blood Angel forces during times of great need. Why this is important is the influence of the warp - the Sanguinor was originally human, and is now moving in and out of the warp, so the potential is there for him to have a body that is used to large amounts of warp energy.

 

The Emperor (as shown in Dark Imperium) has lost a great deal of subtlety, and likely sanity.

 

Finally, the conclusion: a very specific set of events have to occur - starting with Abaddon reaching the throne room. When he reaches the throne room, Dante must be there, to fulfill what he thinks is the prophecy of one shining warrior (him) defending the Emperor at humanity's darkest hour. The Sanguinor will appear as well, either fighting with Dante, or after his death. If he fights with Dante, the Blood Angel will sacrifice (just like a BA was sacrificed to create the Sanguinor) himself to save the Sanguinor, and the Emperor will have no choice but to see an uncanny resemblence to the duel aboard the Vengeful Spirit and Sanguinius' death. If it arrives after, same deal - more appropriate, even, as it will mirror the Emperor's arrival after Sanguinius' death. Either way, the Emperor sees the death mask of Sanguinius, which perfectly resembles his face - see that his son does not have the soul given to him, and try to put it back (this is the Emperor after levelling up Dark Souls style a few hundred million times, I don't think it would be a stretch). Since the Sanguinor has been popping in and out of the warp for so long, he's bound to have a pretty high tolerance for it, meaning he will be able to contain Sanguinius' soul - at least temporarily; perhaps Sanguinius Reborn only has the time to duel Abaddon, perhaps not - and will proceed to duel Abaddon.

 

Edit: didn't explain the last paragraph clearly. The Emperor's attention will either be drawn to the throne room by Dante's death (Blood Angel sacrificing himself to give the Emperor a chance to live) or Abaddons presence. Once the Sanguinor arrives, the Emperor will sense a few things: the amount of warp energy around/in the Sanguinor (from constant exposure) , the presence / psychic mark of Sanguinius, as he made the mask himself, and lastly, I'm not entirely sure how to word this, but his proximity and connection to Sanguinius along with the fact that people (loyal Legionaries, even, whose souls would be part of him) saw him as Sanguinius would leave some sort of psychic mark, which would serve to strengthen the bond between them and facilitate the transfer of Sanguinius' soul.

 

With Abaddon, his beefed up chaosy-ness, his connection to his father, and wielding the weapon that killed the Emperor and Sanguinius would serve to bring back the memories (and possibly induce some sort of reaction from the emperor), which could positively impact the transfer of Sanguinius' soul.

 

So happens the worst thing ever - I hate myself for thinking of it.

 

 

A ) Great catch! Malcador has a lot of potential in the Siege. Personally, I would love to see a traitor Primarch (Angron? Lorgar? Mort? Pert?) bust into a room only to see Malcador in there alone. The Primarch stops short in his tracks and slowly backs away while his Space Marines are like "what's wrong with you? It's just a single old man in a brown robe!" But the Primarch is like "stay away from this one. There are few deadlier in the entire palace."

 

Just an epic moment to realize that the wiser someone gets, the more wary of Malcador they become.

 

I also love your idea about Malc pointing out how useful Magnus would have been.

 

B ) Here's some lye and a flamethrower as well.

 

...ok....not a terrible idea within context, I just don't like the "ascension" creep that's going on all over 40k. One of the reasons Dante is top 3 favorite character for me is that he isn't ascended or infused with golden light or anything. Just a line Astartes who's been-there-done-that-got-the-T-shirt for 1500 years.

 

As for how I see Dante and Abaddon in the throne room....

Dante jump-pack drop kicks Abaddon before he can even get his "I've waited 10,000 years to kill the false emperor" speech out, then while Abby is stunned on the ground doesn't stop wailing on him with the Axe Mortalis until Abby is a bunch of tiny pieces. "You've heard one speech, you've heard them all" Dante says wiping off the blood from his axe. He chops the Talon of Horus off Abby's arm and hands it to the only Sanguinary Guard left standing with him. "Put this in our father's tomb" he says and starts to undress. The SG is like "wha/???" and Dante says "two things I've learned in my time serving the Imperium. One: don't give the enemy time to prepare. Strike hard, strike fast, and strike before he gets his speech off. And second, people need symbols. They need icons and heroes to emulate. I'm not that hero. I'm just a kid from Baal who got lucky more times than I care to admit. Who knows how long that luck will hold out?"

 

Dante lays his golden armor on the steps of the golden throne and hands the Death Mask of Sanguinius to the SG standing there, still awestruck. "I, for one, don't want to find out. No, Dante died here today. He died slaying the arch traitor. I can be far more for the Imperium as a martyr, as a symbol, than I can as a (super) man." The Sanguinary Guard nods slowly as Dante's words hit home.

 

Dante picks up the Axe Mortalis and stares at it for a bit. The closest thing to a smile creeps into the corners of his lips. "This, however. I'm keeping. You grow fond of certain things as you age and this weapon has never failed me. I don't feel like finding another." He makes eye contact with the SG one last time. "Carry on, brother. Never cease, never fail, never ever ever ever give up hope. Our father lives, you see. He lives through us. So long as we never give up hope, so long as we inspire the mortals around us to always strive for a better future, our father lives. Farewell, Frater." 

 

Dante turns around slowly walks to the exit, twirling his wrist as he feels the weight of the Axe Mortalis again. "Wherever you find this axe, know that my body will be not far away. Now, I hear there are even bigger bugs outside the galatic plane. Let's see if I can't kill the biggest one of all...." And Dante was never seen again.

 

Back on Baal, a lone golden figure entered the tomb of Sanguinius. On the tomb he placed the Talon of Horus and The Death Mask of Sanguinius. Neither would be used ever again. No radiant light, no crash of thunder, no sudden dust storm rose up in that moment. The silence of the angel's tomb was deafening. The golden figure stood and listened to the silence for a long moment. It was more beautiful than he had imagined. "He lives in us" the golden figure thought and then turned around and went back to an ever hostile galaxy.

 

-me on the spot

 

[HeritorA]

I could also see the "BA large model" niche filled by "uplifted Sanguinor" going the way of Yncarne, more or less.

No no no. Please all the chaos Undivided combined - don't be soo. That' plainly boring and absolutely pointless.

 

As for the Malcador - he shouldn't fight anyone or mesmerize someones mind.  It's not his place or role in the HH.

He could view the battlefields on Terra from the eyes of a spiritual hawk  - and if that would be written by Wraight it would be awesome.

[Kastor Krieg]

 

I could also see the "BA large model" niche filled by "uplifted Sanguinor" going the way of Yncarne, more or less.

No no no. Please all the chaos Undivided combined - don't be soo. That' plainly boring and absolutely pointless.

 

As for the Malcador - he shouldn't fight anyone or mesmerize someones mind.  It's not his place or role in the HH.

He could view the battlefields on Terra from the eyes of a spiritual hawk  - and if that would be written by Wraight it would be awesome.

 

Boring? Imagine Sanguinor's essence meshing with one of the Emperor's known aspects of the Angels of the Astronomican, which previously constantly fought at the edges of Astronomican's light and warp rifts like the Eye of Terror. That's possibly why when the Great Rift ripped the galaxy in half, the Astronomican was overburdened and flickered and died. Then reimagine Sanguinor as Emperor's Lightbringer, a messenger to the Other Side of the galaxy, the Bringer of Light, the Beacon of Hope. That's very much what the Sanguinor has been, what the Sanguinius has been and what the light of the Astronomicon has been, for 10 thousand years.

 

Their essences align and the Sanguinor Imbued is born. Sanguinius is back and isn't at the same time. His sacrifice not invalidated.

[Mellow]

You lot have all these ideas about the siege but let's be honest. It will end up being some over tiresome 3 novel unnecessary arc where not a lot happens except the main characters do their normal:

 

The Emperor continues to avoid people and sulk in his basement.

 

Malcador will end up conspiring about everything and achieving nothing.

 

Sanguinius will be moping around knowing the end is nigh "oh woe is me"

 

Horus will be doing some serious moustache twirling and evil cackling like that awkward scene from Austin powers.

 

Dorn will be worrying about bricks.

 

Angron will be shouting and killing his own troops because reasons.

 

Probably.

[Augustus]

Heritor. Curze is the "gift" that keeps on giving. He'll likely break out, stow away, and arrive with Sanguinius. Or the Lion will let him out because of some misguided Dumbledore-esque belief in his prophecies.

[b1soul]

Fulgrim is definitely the fastest.

It's probably between him and Khan

 

 

Sanguinius couldn't even hit Curze on a one on one let alone kill him. They are both a side of the same coin in their ability to read future events.

Sangunius wasn't power armoured, whereas Curze was...and I don't think Sanguinius was truly enraged in that fight.

 

Anyway...the Lion could certainly hit Curze and leave him on helpless on the ground - Sang would be capable (though not guaranteed) of doing the same