Primarch Confrontations at the Siege of Terra

[bluntblade]

The key bit to Lorgar's spiel on Sang is "once he fights with nothing to lose".

[1000 Sons]

I can see Magnus having his own agenda, goes down to Terra and is just calmly walking through the abandoned palace heading down to the Emperor.  While in orbit Horus gets word that reinforcements are incoming and knows he must finish off the Emperor quickly while he still has time, he orders the shields on the Vengeful Spirit to be dropped.  Magnus walks to the door the throne room and out of a hidden entrance comes Valdor, and the two begin to talk, Magnus calling Valdor a traitor for doing Horus' bidding in helping to destroy the Thousand Sons.  He traps Valdor in a kine shield and enters the throne room and is shocked when he sees Malcador instead being burned on the Golden Throne.  Furious for again being played the fool he crushed Valdor to a pulp, and swears to the tortured Malcador that he will have his revenge against the Emperor.

[Mazryonh]

Mazryonh

Sangy could fight Fulgrim, but Fulgrim was hardly listening Horus at the end of the 'Vengeful Spirit' and went all hedonism first and 'feth' you all in the 'Path of Heaven'.

Maybe he will come to the Palace - but only of his own volition to test his skills.

 

As for the Curze - he wouldn't be at Terra at all.

1) Right now he is a 'captive' of a DA and travelling to Terra with Sangy, Lion and Buirlly. We all know that Sangy will arrive but Buirlly and Lion does not. Any particular reason for Sangy to take the biggest terror maniac killer (Curze) into the most guarded room of the Imperial Palace? For justice, out of spite? By that point - all 3 IS Primarchs are logical and practical to a fault. And do you think where would be a NL leftover force (to free Curze) to take over the combined warfleet of BA, DA and smurfs?

2) As you said yourself - 'Due in no small part to the efforts of ADB, the Night Lords and by extension Curze have become fan favourites', but since then his appearances as a boogeyman all over the IS and from different author - totally ruined his visage. And duel - really?

 

At Imperium Secundus he dueled 4 Primarchs! With Lion he duelled 4 TIMES! That's enough.

 

I would be glad if he will simply limp to Tsagualsa and stay where till his death.

 

Fulgrim, as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, feeds on excess. Sooner or later he'll decide that assaulting the Palace is the best way to pass the time. So would the possibility of taking Sanguinius' head as another trophy. 

 

As for Curze, do you remember that line from The Dark Knight by the Joker that went "I think you and I are destined to do this forever"? Curze is just too good a villain for the authors to leave him imprisoned until he meets the end he foresaw right from the moment he first woke up.  And as I said earlier, lots of people love to see these "who would win" matches.  Of course, they're not absolutely necessary to move the plot forward, but they're the sort of thing people most often pay to see.

 

Besides, as the nominal leader of Imperium Secundus, Sanguinius can just say that "My visions tell me that Curze may yet have a part to play in Terra's defense. I'm taking him with me" and the Lion and Guilliman would be in no position to object (wasn't there a bit at the end of Angels of Caliban where Sanguinius realizes that his visions may be truer than even he thinks?). Taking Curze to meet and speak with his father in person one last time would be a great way to end his character arc. 

 

A ) Great catch! Malcador has a lot of potential in the Siege. Personally, I would love to see a traitor Primarch (Angron? Lorgar? Mort? Pert?) bust into a room only to see Malcador in there alone. The Primarch stops short in his tracks and slowly backs away while his Space Marines are like "what's wrong with you? It's just a single old man in a brown robe!" But the Primarch is like "stay away from this one. There are few deadlier in the entire palace."

 

I think Lorgar would be a good candidate to meet Malcador in the flesh. Lorgar commands his psychic power mostly from his Chaos Blessings. Malcador needs none of that and is still the stronger psyker. 

 

You lot have all these ideas about the siege but let's be honest. It will end up being some over tiresome 3 novel unnecessary arc where not a lot happens except the main characters do their normal:

 

The Emperor continues to avoid people and sulk in his basement.

 

Malcador will end up conspiring about everything and achieving nothing.

 

Sanguinius will be moping around knowing the end is nigh "oh woe is me"

 

Horus will be doing some serious moustache twirling and evil cackling like that awkward scene from Austin powers.

 

Dorn will be worrying about bricks.

 

Angron will be shouting and killing his own troops because reasons.

 

Probably.

Then that's a lot of wasted opportunities for character development. But I don't think Angron needs to kill his own troops. As a Daemon Prince he can just rely on Khornate Daemons because they're "Without Number" and can be replaced fairly easily by summoning in more.

[karden00]

With regards to Costodes vs astartes at the siege and how this may turn out:

I've never been a fan of the idea that while 1 on 1, custodes are better, but when it's groups tactics, the legions have the edge. The 'but we're super best friends,' our whole is greater than the sum of our parts thing is I suppose fun to read about, when it comes to reading about Astartes, but once you throw in an objectively, quantifiably superior generic killing machine, the better one(s) should win, every time.

Few will argue that one custodian should reliably rolfstomp one astartes, barring plot armour of course.

Indeed, one custodian could be said to be more than a match for several astartes. I don't mind this one bit. Better genetics, weaponry, armour, (read, better stat line).

But of course there are limits.

One custodian vs 5/10 astartes, and you start finding dead custodians. When you think that the siege is not just one big h2h duel, but a protracted, running duel, there is plenty of room for opportunities.

But let's zoom out a bit. Because of their individual value, I imagine that custodians begin to see much more of a force multiplier when they (excuse the expression) 'mob up' than astartes would. Hear me out.

I'm fairly comfortable with saying something like, in a running urban skirmish, 1 custodian can handle a small handful of (what would by the time of Terra be veteran) marines. Easily 1-2, perhaps three or as many as four, at any rate (for narrative purposes, none of it should be presented as 'easy,' of course). But costodians I think ought to betray my own logic. If one custodian can handle, say, 3 marines, I kinda think ten custodians could handle fifty, rather than thirty.

I don't think I quite love the idea of custodians losing an edge to astartes in group contexts, on the grounds that astartes are more accustomed to it. Custodians are better, plain and simple. In most fluff pieces, custodians work in small groups, not as individuals, so I'm not sure I can readily accept that marines just win in the group category. In an open field a la Urgal Depression, would I ever expect 100 custodes to take on 500 marines? Not particularly, but in the context of the siege, I expect these guys to be wicked deadly. The only equalizer I see as working in favour of the traitors is numbers. Chaos legion vets and lots and lots and lots of daemons. But the fluff in my head looks like a truly ugly imbalance when it comes to the collective toll custodians take on the traitor forces.

[Vesper]

Thing is Space Marines Legions scale up much better than the custodes because they are meant to scale up to huge conflicts. Space Marines Legions have huge numbers of armour, artillery, close air support, specialised long range units (and in case of the Siege, orbital support). The custodes aren't supposed to prosecute a war of that scale and lack most of the tools to.

 

If a scaled up fistfight remained a fistfight, the custodes would handle it well. But sadly it's all out war.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Vesper

[bluntblade]

So you end up with Custodes just contesting the confined spaces and chokepoints, as they'll suffer when the Traitors can bring their full arsenal to bear.

[Vesper]

When you have artillery, titans and ships shelling stuff night and day, forget chokepoints. I mean, the walls of the Palace are huge and crazy deep. Yet they collapsed and thousands upon thousands died that moment.

 

That's the thing with super elite. They still die to blind artillery fire, except you lose much more investment when they do. They are utterly unsuited to all out war. And that's fine, they aren't supposed to be thrown in such situations. The Unification Wars were child's play in comparison to Legion warfare.

[HeritorA]

So you end up with Custodes just contesting the confined spaces and chokepoints, as they'll suffer when the Traitors can bring their full arsenal to bear.

True - but lets get to the topic - we discuss primarch

[karden00]

When you have artillery, titans and ships shelling stuff night and day, forget chokepoints. I mean, the walls of the Palace are huge and crazy deep. Yet they collapsed and thousands upon thousands died that moment.

 

That's the thing with super elite. They still die to blind artillery fire, except you lose much more investment when they do. They are utterly unsuited to all out war. And that's fine, they aren't supposed to be thrown in such situations. The Unification Wars were child's play in comparison to Legion warfare.

 

Definitely true and I do not dispute your logic, but rather agree wholeheartedly.

What I'm trying to say is that terra is an absolute mess, not particularly suited to anyone's kind of warfare. We've talked about how we're going to see titans, custodians, Astra militarum, knights, assassins, the legions, unnumbered daemons.

Given the clusterfudge that is the siege, can anyone really claim that this is the kinda warfare they are ideally suited for? Sure, I absolutely grant that the legions have taken out hive worlds before, but given that terra will be the site of such a vast array and variety of forces, I dunno if 'legion warfare' as described in so many books will be any more a reality than, say, titan warfare.

In such an environment, I really see the Creme de la creme fighters making a huge mark on their foes.

[bluntblade]

Given that Abaddon ends up side-by-side with Khayon, that alone suggests a bit of a mess.

[b1soul]

The siege is gonna be a challenge to write

[Mellow]

As long as there's lots of innuendo in the siege. I'm happy. ;)

[helterskelter]

As long as there's lots of innuendo in the siege. I'm happy. ;)

"No one tosses a squat!"

[bluntblade]

On the last wall:

 

"Toss them."

 

"Captain Pollux?"

 

"We're out of krak and frags! I order you to toss the squats!"

[Indefragable]

 

As long as there's lots of innuendo in the siege. I'm happy.

"No one tosses a squat!"

 

 

Elves Eldar better not magically show up to "save" the day just so the costumes get more screen time.

 

#notinthebook #worstsceneever #thebookwasbetter

Edited July 5, 2017 by Indefragable

[Mellow]

The Eldar do turn up and save the day. They are very friendly to Humanity.

[Mazryonh]

The siege is gonna be a challenge to write

 

The Imperial Palace is the size of a large continent. The authors could spend volumes covering all the action happening on its walls and in its halls, let alone the rest of the planet.  It's going to be hard to encompass the sheer size of the Siege of Terra while still keeping it relevant to characters on a personal level. This is essentially the Battle of Calth but with many more forces involved, and with only one major objective rather than "wreak havoc across an entire planet."

 

Definitely true and I do not dispute your logic, but rather agree wholeheartedly.

What I'm trying to say is that terra is an absolute mess, not particularly suited to anyone's kind of warfare. We've talked about how we're going to see titans, custodians, Astra militarum, knights, assassins, the legions, unnumbered daemons.

Given the clusterfudge that is the siege, can anyone really claim that this is the kinda warfare they are ideally suited for? Sure, I absolutely grant that the legions have taken out hive worlds before, but given that terra will be the site of such a vast array and variety of forces, I dunno if 'legion warfare' as described in so many books will be any more a reality than, say, titan warfare.

In such an environment, I really see the Creme de la creme fighters making a huge mark on their foes.

 

The Iron Warriors are certainly used to being on the attack during grinding siege actions. But they're not the only ones running this operation, so it won't be anywhere near as orderly as they would normally do. The Daemons, being creatures of Chaos, aren't exactly the most likely to obey orders from anyone other than Lorgar and his legion (and the Greater ones not likely to do that either).  The Daemonic Primarchs have their own goals to pursue, and their own legions probably won't listen to Horus very well. The Sons of Horus are used to blitzkriegs, which the Siege of Terra most certainly isn't. 

 

But the "creme de la creme" is what dramatically ties it together.  All the nameless Solar Auxilia ground under the boots, tanks, and guns of the Traitor Primarchs, tragic as their deaths are, don't affect the reader as much as the Loyalist Primarch heroes trying their best to win and save as many loyalist lives as they can. 

 

Back on topic, I want to see Constantin Valdor have a little 1-on-1 time with one of the non-Daemonic Traitor Primarchs.  The Emperor has been shown to say that he cares more about his Custodes than his Astartes, and maybe a couple of the Traitor Primarchs would be shocked to learn how much better the Custodes were treated than they themselves were. And then Traitor Primarchs realize that they too were placeholders compared to the Custodes. 

[bluntblade]

You seem to be taking a lot of what the Emperor said in MoM at face value, when AD-B says we shouldn't do that. Moreover, you're taking Zephon's musings as gospel truth. There's no proof that the Custodes were meant to kill Astartes, much less replace them.

 

Besides, to say the Emperor treated the Custodes better is a dubious proposition. At best, (taking some from their families while killing off all their relatives) he held them back to fight and die where their deaths would have the most value. Moreover, that a cold, businesslike soul like Valdor would actually say "your daddy liked me better than you, na-na-na-na-na" to Perturabo, Lorgar or Mortarion seems a tad silly. Let alone the idea that, as Mankind stands on the verge of damnation, it matters in the slightest.

[Mazryonh]

You seem to be taking a lot of what the Emperor said in MoM at face value, when AD-B says we shouldn't do that. Moreover, you're taking Zephon's musings as gospel truth. There's no proof that the Custodes were meant to kill Astartes, much less replace them.

 

Besides, to say the Emperor treated the Custodes better is a dubious proposition. At best, (taking some from their families while killing off all their relatives) he held them back to fight and die where their deaths would have the most value. Moreover, that a cold, businesslike soul like Valdor would actually say "your daddy liked me better than you, na-na-na-na-na" to Perturabo, Lorgar or Mortarion seems a tad silly. Let alone the idea that, as Mankind stands on the verge of damnation, it matters in the slightest.

 

I guess that's the occupational hazard of us readers when we only get one viewpoint of a character. But I'm sure at least some loyalist characters remember what happened to the Thunder Warriors during the Unification Wars on Terra. The Thunder Warriors probably thought themselves to be the Emperor's most valuable asset, which turned out to be very untrue because they were unceremoniously and promptly replaced when it came time for the Great Crusade even within the Terran Solar System. With that in mind, it's plausible for some of those people to fear what would have happened to the Astartes or even the Primarchs once the Great Crusade was won.  The way the Emperor treated Angron (and by extension the Lost Primarchs) as expendable by leaving him to burn himself out on the field of battle showed that even the Primarchs were not absolutely necessary to his plans. 

 

And as I said before on this thread, if simple words can be used to make the Traitor Primarchs lose their cool and act foolishly, then why not use that advantage? The fact that Angron lost his patience at Isstvan III is one of the major reasons why the Imperium got word of the Horus Heresy before Horus could win via blitzkrieg according to his original plan. 

 

If Constantin Valdor or another Custodes bigwig was able to show (perhaps with some prodding by Malcador) just how much better he is at direct combat combat than say, Lorgar, that makes the Custodes prime targets more due to Lorgar's bruised ego, especially if Valdor makes sure to rub it in Lorgar's face that an Emperor's Son cannot face up to one of the higher-level Custodes.  That's a possible tactical advantage because it could mean that the Custodes can be used to draw away more traitor forces than would be advisable to commit to them, becoming very effective decoys. 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Mazryonh

[bluntblade]

Like I said, I doubt those taunts would matter at that stage, as the Traitors demolish the Palace. Plus Lorgar isn't the weakling of The First Heretic any more. He's the one who survived a Titan plasma blast to the face and pulls gunships out of the sky.

[Arkangilos]

 

Fulgrim is definitely the fastest.

It's probably between him and Khan

 

 

Sanguinius couldn't even hit Curze on a one on one let alone kill him. They are both a side of the same coin in their ability to read future events.

Sangunius wasn't power armoured, whereas Curze was...and I don't think Sanguinius was truly enraged in that fight.

 

Anyway...the Lion could certainly hit Curze and leave him on helpless on the ground - Sang would be capable (though not guaranteed) of doing the same

Yeah, and if I remember correctly he ends up actually beating Curze but wanted to turn curze back (he wanted to redeem him). And then when he was finally to that stage he had a choice to kill Curze or save his men, and he chose to save his men. So he did beat Curze.

[HeritorA]

The siege is gonna be a challenge to write

Not so - I think it was planned long ago and would be done by different authors. Each making his own contribution.

 

Someone will do Luna conquest, someone orbit battles over Earth, someone first drop and Lion Spaceport, etc. etc.