Vindicators... any use now?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So is there any way to actually use them now? with a 35 point increase and demolisher cannon being made essentially useless, i just can;t see a use for the two I have.
Or is there somethign I'm missing? D3 shots which are likely to be hitting on a 4+ don't seem that usefull or effiecient, even at anti tank/monster hunting.

[the jeske]

Was a bad tank. Stayed a bad tank. only use I can think of is to use it as a counts as rhino.

[Brother Aiwass]

If he's charged by a rhino, isn't going to fire ever again.

[Raven1]

Yeah it seams the old blast weapons took a pretty big hit as far as rules go which is too bad. There is certainly potential but I think we will see most choices for heavy support go to predator tanks, havoc squads, heck even helbrute specifically lascannon/missile launcher.

[Commissar K.]

It's really expensive for such a narrow use...

At T8 it does fufill to the super-type Thoughness but I dont know if you want to go bumping cars with it (likely not).

Edit:

I'd also like to know why the weapon actually is more effective against units then it is against Fortresses. It's design doesn't match the suggestive Siege design it is. They could have and likely should have bumped damage from D6 to 6 against fortifications and such...

Edited June 22, 2017 by Commissar K.

[El_Dicko]

This makes me sad, I have always loved the look of vindicators. I don't really have much intention to play anymore but still, I own two of them.

[Azekai]

It sounds like under the current ruleset Vindicators are in need of some... well, vindication.

[razcalking]

I feel like blast weapons like that should have been 2 d6, pick the highest for number of shots.

[Skerr]

When it fires on a unit of more than 5 the number of shots potentially go up to d6. Plus d6 damage?

 

Looks likes it good on large units especially if they have 3 wounds, vehicles and monsters. Though I have yet to test drive in 8th.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Skerr

[Azekai]

I feel like blast weapons like that should have been 2 d6, pick the highest for number of shots.

Or heck, just 2d6 flat. Then maybe your giant cannon could actually start scratching those ridiculous blobs of guards and orks that are beginning to crop up.

 

I know it scales with the size of the targeted squad, but blasts are so lack luster, I would like them to scale harder in order to prevent crushing numbers of goons from always being the efficient choice.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Azekai

[Skerr]

Plus no more scatter onto friendly units for aggressive shooter. Of course a miss is a miss though has anyone used one yet? Edited June 22, 2017 by Skerr

[Zodd1888]

Theu seem like a Lascannon Shotgun to me. Have to spend a turn or twp getring shot to get into range, but if you hit it's dead. I think they're going to be ideal against the Magnuses and Mortarions of the world, or whatever Xenos levithan creatures lurk about.

 

You'd have to gun line it though. Have a horde unit charge for a turn into your target, next turn drive up and have the unit fallback to shoot it. To much effort to use IMO though.

[Brother Aiwass]

Theu seem like a Lascannon Shotgun to me. Have to spend a turn or twp getring shot to get into range, but if you hit it's dead. I think they're going to be ideal against the Magnuses and Mortarions of the world, or whatever Xenos levithan creatures lurk about.

Problem is this unlikely to happen.

 

You don't need it dead, you need it neutered. So charge it with a rhino, and the vindy is now locked in combat; if he falls back, then the rhino moves and charges again, if not, he's locked up and can only fight -good luck killing a rhino in CQC.

[RapatoR]

Well I have two, and hopefully I will playtest them soon, and report to you abut them.

[Xenith]

 

Theu seem like a Lascannon Shotgun to me. Have to spend a turn or twp getring shot to get into range, but if you hit it's dead. I think they're going to be ideal against the Magnuses and Mortarions of the world, or whatever Xenos levithan creatures lurk about.

Problem is this unlikely to happen.

 

You don't need it dead, you need it neutered. So charge it with a rhino, and the vindy is now locked in combat; if he falls back, then the rhino moves and charges again, if not, he's locked up and can only fight -good luck killing a rhino in CQC.

 

 

Yes, but if I charge the rhino that wants to charge my vindi with a landspeeder first, that Rhino is useless.

 

If the entire rest of your army cannot kill that rhino before that happens to you, or after the vindicator backs away, you've already lost.

[Brother Aiwass]

Yes. But if you need to spend your entire army firepower (or half, for that matter) to stop a single rhino from charging to protect a vindy... :P

[Panzer]

Yes. But if you need to spend your entire army firepower (or half, for that matter) to stop a single rhino from charging to protect a vindy...

Well you could just shoot the Rhino with the Vindy while it's on its way to the front if you are THAT worried about preventing a Rhino charge. :D

[Xenith]

Yes. But if you need to spend your entire army firepower (or half, for that matter) to stop a single rhino from charging to protect a vindy...

 

Again. If you have no way of stopping a rhino reaching your vindicator, then you have lost the game at the army design stage.

[Commissar K.]

Yes. But if you need to spend your entire army firepower (or half, for that matter) to stop a single rhino from charging to protect a vindy...

Yeah, the option to protect it is always there. The real issue I have is to find a good reason to include it.

 

T8 is nice but it's output is lackluster and ultimately, especially for Chaos, if that output doesn't add up to something we're often better off thaking something else.

 

The functionality of it to me is just not really great, though part of this also comes from the fact that we do have Daemonic Engine alternatives who typically are so flexible that inflexible pieces like the Vindicator seem even worse. 

 

I really dont know what the SM opinion on the thing is... My guess is that they don't really have a function for it either, as a Razorback is also a mono-weapon thing, with slightly lower Toughness but the option to transport a unit, which in most cases feels way more relevant. 

 

All in all I just feel that this Siege weapon suffers a bit from un-creative design. If they stamped a does 6 damage against X thing onto it it at would have a suggestive function as a Siege Weapon. Which could have mattered in the upcomming City heavy books.

[Panzer]

I think we can compare it best with a simple duo LasPred.

 

We get

48" Heavy2 S9 AP-3 D1d6 on a T7 chassis for 152p

vs

24" Heavy1d3(1d6 vs bigger units) S10 AP-3 D1d6 on a T8 chassis with inbuild Smoke Launcher for 160p

 

imo that's pretty comparable. Both do about the same amount of damage except that the Vindi does more against T5 models and units with 5 or more models.

The Pred has twice the range so he can more often stay out of range or can stay stationary (and thus shoot without the -1 modifier) while the Vindi can make himself harder to hit for a turn and is generally harder to wound by the omnipresent S7 spam and the usual anti-tank weaponry (S8). It also gets wounded on 6s by S4 which can become rather important considering how close to the enemy it has to be to be.

Another thing to note is, that while the expected result of 1d3 is 2 and of 1d6 is 3.5, it can also flop and shoot with only one shot or go all out and shoot 3/6 times.

 

So for the same cost compared with a similar tank the damage output as well as the survivability actually looks pretty much the same, just with a different flavour.

The real difference is that the Pred can take 2 more LasCannons for 50p more, outshooting the Vindi against units with less than 5 models and still being slightly above the expected result against units with 5+ models. And with 48" range it has way more targets to chose from than the Vindi which is a pretty straight forward tank: drive to the target and blast it away.

So the real question is....would you prefer a dual LasPred for the same cost instead?

[Brother Aiwass]

 

Yes. But if you need to spend your entire army firepower (or half, for that matter) to stop a single rhino from charging to protect a vindy...

 

Again. If you have no way of stopping a rhino reaching your vindicator, then you have lost the game at the army design stage.

 

While your army is busy dealing with khorne melta termies, zerkers, hellforged dreads and a trio of chaos xiphon you may want to revisit your target priorities 

 

What failed at the design stage is the vindicator, imho.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

So the real question is....would you prefer a dual LasPred for the same cost instead?

 

Quite likely yes, range being factor 1, option to shoot at different targets being factor 2.

 

Unlike the Predator the Vindicator actually has to move up aswell to be relevant. This doesn't always have to be an issue but it also is not a strict advantage either as closing in versus Imperium means that at some point we're bound to engage in close combat aswell. Due to Death to the False Emperor and that.

Then versus Xenos every well ranged weapon is one you want to have. Be it for Flyers that disengage and strike back at us or a massive horde you don't want to close into anyway. 

 

To me the sole advantage of the Vindicator comes from it's T8 and I don't think that will ever be sufficiently enough. Putting a combi-flamer onto it is nice and all but we can also use a Rhino for similar purposes. As above engaging with a Vindicator isn't terribly hard to do and he can't really do anything about it either. The fact that it has to move up and shoot his Demolisher cannon at 4+ also does not help...

 

[Panzer]

I agree, however I think those two units are similar enough that depending on the theme of your army you can easily exchange them with eachother ithout losing much.

[Commissar K.]

I agree, however I think those two units are similar enough that depending on the theme of your army you can easily exchange them with eachother ithout losing much.

That is very likely true. However another candidate I feel the Vindicator now has to compete with are the likes of Hellbrutes and Forgefiends. Both engaging units aswell (or at least they dont mind melee too much ;) ) and ultimately also more lineair in single target shooting. The moment we then factor in a character with these pieces and I actually prefer those over the Vindicator.

 

I guess the issue I have with the Vindicator is that is has to close in.

If it had the same range as Lascannons and the like the whole comparison would have been much closer. Because it has to close in it enters a realm of close range vechicles and boy do we have a lot of those! From Hellbrute, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and even Helldrake I'd be inclined to run them over the Vindicator for the simple reason that they are not completely hopeless in melee. 

 

My verdict on it is that it isn't too expensive but it's role is so lineair that as a combined arms force we can't really use it to any great advantage. Perhaps if you'd stack them with very cheap troop choices in another army (regular SM) their quantity could offset their quality. However I don't feel we should or can do that. 

I have to say that the Vindicator doesnt feel like a huge mistake or anything, to me it just doesn't reach out well enough. The difference between it being good enough to what it is now is minimal but there.

 

Lastly if you do play (for example) Iron Warriors then by all means dont worry too much about it's cost. I do think that for a mono Chaos undivided force it might work out for you. Granted you are then playing a game very close to SM which frankly SM are still better at. Prime reason there is morale and flexability of tactical choice. 

[Zodd1888]

Vindicators arent (IMO) something I can see being part of all-comers lists. They're super specialized and require a supporting army composition. Nearly all former artillery vehicles/weapons are in the same boat. They just feel out of place.