Tzaangors and Poxwalkers, Legion only?

[Sonoftherubric21]

Quick rules question for all the Chaos Frater here; 

 

Can NON legion armies/detachments take Pox walkers / Tzaangors as troops? 

So If I wanted to do a Black Legion detachment could I just toss in a unit of Pox Walkers, or a unit of Tzaangors to fill the slots in a patrol detachment? (as an example) as the only restriction is "must be same faction" which they would be. 

[Atia]

Yes you can, since they all share the "chaos" keyword :)

[Sonoftherubric21]

So for something like Scarab Occult or Tzaangors; they could both fill in slots for the elite/troops respectively, they just do not receive the "Black Legion" HQ bonuses because they lack that keyword.

I would presume that is correct (and that will probably change when the chaos/ legion books get released) 

[Panzer]

Exactly.

[Atia]

Indeed. You even could use some units from Forgeworld's R&H list as part of the same detachment (for example a Medusa or a Wyvern!).

[Xenith]

You'll notice that Rubric marines come in two forms. Elites, where you can choose your legion, and troops, where they must be Thousand Sons.

 

You could take Rubrics as an elites choice and give them the Black Legion keyword.

 

Tzaangors count as a troop choice, but can only take the Thousand Son Keyword. Similar for poxwalkers.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Xenith

[Panzer]

You could also take Black Legion Rubrics for the Elite slots and TSons Rubrics for the Troop slots if you want to. :D

[Xenith]

Or TS rubrics as both troops and elites, so you can rubric while you rubric.

[Sonoftherubric21]

You could also take Black Legion Rubrics for the Elite slots and TSons Rubrics for the Troop slots if you want to.

 

Lmao; well if that isn't just the most counter-intuitive thing I have heard all month :p 

 

Fair enough! I shall be filling my basic troops slots with Tzaangors and Pox walkers, though lacking Synergy with command traits both have their uses (And I happen to have extra I cant fit into my 1k sons case  )  Yes call me obsessive 

 

I was tempted to use a Death Guard detachment with an attached black Legion detachment splashed in for non-DG marines, cheap, easy, and I own most of it already so it makes for a neat list! 

[Prot]

I know it's kind of deflating to the armies that inherently use these units, but the truth is there's almost no real advantage to playing a specific Faction right now. Just for personal reasons I guess!

[Commissar K.]

So I was wondering, can World Eaters have Sorcerers as Sorcerers cant have the Mark of Khorne but can be Markless...

[Shinespider]

Nope. The World Eaters page says that any unit that can have a mark must be Mark of Khorne. Sorcerers can be marked, but cannot have the MoK, so there is no legal way to construct of World Eaters Sorcerer. 

[Gordon Shumway]

Quick rules question for all the Chaos Frater here; 

 

Can NON legion armies/detachments take Pox walkers / Tzaangors as troops? 

So If I wanted to do a Black Legion detachment could I just toss in a unit of Pox Walkers, or a unit of Tzaangors to fill the slots in a patrol detachment? (as an example) as the only restriction is "must be same faction" which they would be.

 

You can take them in Legion armies as troops as well. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/downloadAttach/267256.page

[Commissar K.]

Nope. The World Eaters page says that any unit that can have a mark must be Mark of Khorne. Sorcerers can be marked, but cannot have the MoK, so there is no legal way to construct of World Eaters Sorcerer. 

Do we have a written confirmation on this as the Mark of Khorne obviously is not a legal option but not picking a Mark at all is.

 

As per page 10 of the Index (bottem left corner):

You do not have to choose a Mark of Chaos for a unit if you do not want to, if you do not, its is assumed that the unit etc.

 

Before the "but narrative", keep in mind that Rubric Marines can also recieve the World Eater <Legion> trait and World Eaters must change Keyword <Mark of Chaos> but that is not the same as Keyword Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh. 

 

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Nope. The World Eaters page says that any unit that can have a mark must be Mark of Khorne. Sorcerers can be marked, but cannot have the MoK, so there is no legal way to construct of World Eaters Sorcerer. 

Do we have a written confirmation on this as the Mark of Khorne obviously is not a legal option but not picking a Mark at all is.

 

As per page 10 of the Index (bottem left corner):

You do not have to choose a Mark of Chaos for a unit if you do not want to, if you do not, its is assumed that the unit etc.

 

Before the "but narrative", keep in mind that Rubric Marines can also recieve the World Eater <Legion> trait and World Eaters must change Keyword <Mark of Chaos> but that is not the same as Keyword Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh. 

 

 

 

I want to say this wont work simply because Rubricae are "locked" to Tzeentch mark. I am fairly certain that is correct. (dont have the datasheet in front of me) 

 

I would imagine Plauge marines, Rubricae, Zerkers, and Noise Marines will always  be locked to their respective gods; but are NOT locked to their legion in the elite slot.  Probably meaning that they would get bonuses from things benefiting from a given mark, but may lock them out of certain lists

 

i.e. all units in a given detachment MUST be nurgle marked (as example) would naturally exclude Rubricae, zerkers, and noise marines from being in that same detachment. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Sonoftherubric21

[Commissar K.]

 

 

Nope. The World Eaters page says that any unit that can have a mark must be Mark of Khorne. Sorcerers can be marked, but cannot have the MoK, so there is no legal way to construct of World Eaters Sorcerer. 

Do we have a written confirmation on this as the Mark of Khorne obviously is not a legal option but not picking a Mark at all is.

 

As per page 10 of the Index (bottem left corner):

You do not have to choose a Mark of Chaos for a unit if you do not want to, if you do not, its is assumed that the unit etc.

 

Before the "but narrative", keep in mind that Rubric Marines can also recieve the World Eater <Legion> trait and World Eaters must change Keyword <Mark of Chaos> but that is not the same as Keyword Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh. 

 

 

 

I want to say this wont work simply because Rubricae are "locked" to Tzeentch mark. I am fairly certain that is correct. (dont have the datasheet in front of me) 

 

I would imagine Plauge marines, Rubricae, Zerkers, and Noise Marines will always  be locked to their respective gods; but are NOT locked to their legion in the elite slot.  Probably meaning that they would get bonuses from things benefiting from a given mark, but may lock them out of certain lists

 

i.e. all units in a given detachment MUST be nurgle marked (as example) would naturally exclude Rubricae, zerkers, and noise marines from being in that same detachment. 

 

As said, I understand the expected "but narrative" responce.

 

The thing however remains that we can change <Legion> to however we like for World Eaters and Emperors Children. While I too would expect that specific Legion Keywords would be locked to Marks of Chaos this currently is not the case under the wording of the recently released Index.

 

For the same reason as above, the Keyword <Mark of Chaos>  is not the same as Khorne, Tzeentch etc. What <Mark of Chaos> allows us to do is change that Keyword for another. Change.

In the case of Thousand Sons and Death Guard it's specifically mentioned that only those pieces can have that <Legion> Keyword but this does not apply to both World Eaters and Emperors Children.

 

In addition, because the Index refers to lists for Death Guard and Thousand Sons there are actually very few pieces in the ForgeWorld Index that can currently legally obtain their Keywords.

 

Its not something I agree with but it is RAW.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Commissar K.]

The thing is, I believe that in the current rendition of 40K's Indexes there is no narrative to worry about and that's also more or less what the rules allow us to do.

To me it doesn't make the game more fun or something but it does allow you to really start anew. An intend I really get for a brand new edition that doesn't feel like edition 6.2.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, what the index says is that <Mark of Chaos> can be changed to one of the four Marks, but(and it says this in big bold, all cap letters) PSYKERS cannot take the Mark of Khorne.

 

The World Eaters rules then say anything with the <World Eaters> Legion keyword must take <Mark of Khorne> if it can take the <Mark of Chaos>.

 

So if you're just playing Faction <Chaos> or even <CSM>, you can take a sorcerer in the same detachment with your World Eaters, but it cannot be the <World Eaters> Legion keyword. But for kicks and giggles, you could call him <Blood Priest> etc.

 

So there are work arounds, but it doesn't look like you can straight force it.

[Commissar K.]

Okay, what the index says is that <Mark of Chaos> can be changed to one of the four Marks, but(and it says this in big bold, all cap letters) PSYKERS cannot take the Mark of Khorne.

 

The World Eaters rules then say anything with the <World Eaters> Legion keyword must take <Mark of Khorne> if it can take the <Mark of Chaos>.

 

So if you're just playing Faction <Chaos> or even <CSM>, you can take a sorcerer in the same detachment with your World Eaters, but it cannot be the <World Eaters> Legion keyword. But for kicks and giggles, you could call him <Blood Priest> etc.

 

So there are work arounds, but it doesn't look like you can straight force it.

Well the thing is, <Mark of Chaos> can also be nothing, as chosen per the last sentence on page 10. So we basically have a minor conflicting rule on World Eaters with <Mark of Chaos> Keyword must replace that with Khorne but what if Khorne is not an option? The thing is that the rule does not forbid it's use. The suggestion is left that we can remove <Mark of Chaos> Keyword if we want to.

 

World Eaters rules say that when <Legion> is replaced with World Eaters models with Keyword <Mark of Chaos> MUST change it to Khorne. Note here it's not a matter of thaking. You lose Keyword <Mark of Chaos>  and gain Keyword Khorne. Also note that it does not say that models without the Khorne Keyword cannot have <Legion> World Eaters. Likewise also note that it does not say models with Keyword World Eaters need Keyword <Mark of Chaos> at all. 

 

The thing is, which is the point of the topic, that there actually isn't something enforced like World Eater or Emperors Children Detachments. It is just stated that you can change any <Legion> Keyword to theirs, then if they also happen to have <Mark of Chaos> or are a Daemon Prince, they must change their Keyword to Khorne or pick the Khorne Daemonic Alliance (note that the Daemon Prince does not have Keyword <Mark of Chaos>).

 

Other than that, the moment you give Khorne Berzerkers the <Legion> Keyword World Eaters they become Troop choices. Nothing is "exclusive" to World Eaters or Emperors Children. In addition there is also no suggestive anymosity within the game that forbids thaking piece A if you thake piece B. 

The only thing we do have is that for Death Guard and Thousand Sons the <Legion> Keyword is exclusive to the pieces in their list. Which doesn't mean they cannot thake other pieces, it just means that those pieces are the only pieces that can obtain Keyword Death Guard and Keyword Thousand Sons.

 

What Im basically saying is that we have tons of options. As nothing is exclusive.

 

Cheers,

Edited June 24, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Kol Saresk]

I agree that we have options, but I don't think they are the options you think they are. But if your gaming group is okay with the rules as you see them, cool beans. And the same for any other groups.

 

That's why house ruling is a thing.

[Shinespider]

I think you're bending and twisting the rules to accomplish something pointless. The World Eaters rules do not contain any special cases or exceptions. It doesn't say anything about "What about units that can't!?" 

 

The Sorcerer CAN be marked.

 

Therefore it MUST have the Mark of Khorne in order to be World Eaters. 

 

If that's not possible (which it obviously isn't,) then there is no way to make a legal WE Sorcerer. 

 

There's nothing interesting here. There is no conflict or contradiction. You can't have a World Eaters Sorcerer for exactly the same reason that you can't have a World Eaters Termaguant Brood. There is no way to align the keywords in a way that makes it legal. 

[Panzer]

I think you're bending and twisting the rules to accomplish something pointless. The World Eaters rules do not contain any special cases or exceptions. It doesn't say anything about "What about units that can't!?" 

 

The Sorcerer CAN be marked.

 

Therefore it MUST have the Mark of Khorne in order to be World Eaters. 

 

If that's not possible (which it obviously isn't,) then there is no way to make a legal WE Sorcerer. 

 

There's nothing interesting here. There is no conflict or contradiction. You can't have a World Eaters Sorcerer for exactly the same reason that you can't have a World Eaters Termaguant Brood. There is no way to align the keywords in a way that makes it legal. 

^this

 

If you decide to play one of the 4 god legions, then every unit that can have a mark has to have one. If the only marks available to that unit don't fit the restrictions of that Legion, you can't take that unit.

It's really no rocket science. ;)

[Commissar K.]

I think you're bending and twisting the rules to accomplish something pointless. The World Eaters rules do not contain any special cases or exceptions. It doesn't say anything about "What about units that can't!?" 

 

The Sorcerer CAN be marked.

 

Therefore it MUST have the Mark of Khorne in order to be World Eaters. 

 

If that's not possible (which it obviously isn't,) then there is no way to make a legal WE Sorcerer. 

 

There's nothing interesting here. There is no conflict or contradiction. You can't have a World Eaters Sorcerer for exactly the same reason that you can't have a World Eaters Termaguant Brood. There is no way to align the keywords in a way that makes it legal. 

Its not a question of bending rules at all. As you CAN choose to not have a Mark at all. It simply says so on page 10. Not that it really matters because a non-Legion World Eater Sorcerer is the same result as a regular w/e Sorcerer.

 

As for no conflinct or contradiction... I don't know if your talking about narrative approaches?

 

There is is currently nothing prefenting anyone from not giving the World Eater <Legion> Keyword to Rubric Marines, Plague Marines, Noise Marines etc. As the only requirement is to have <Legion> for that. Then if they have the <Mark of Chaos> Keyword, it must be Khorne. However again <Mark of Chaos>  is not a requirement and not a Keyword all models have that are available to this force. With the Deamon Prince being the prime example given in the book.

 

In any case, as before it matters little. I'll just have Khârn support my Havocs as he's a boss in telling others how to shoot.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that the Mark of Khorne is a requirement by the simple fact any unit with the <Mark of Chaos> must have <Mark of Khorne>. Which means units that restricted from taking the MoK, are excluded from the WE Legion keyword.

 

You can still have sorcerers, rubrics, NMs, etc in a WE Legion army, but only if they have a different Legion keyword.

 

That's why I suggested saying Blood Priests or something else as the Legion keyword.

 

You can have them in the army, just not as World Eaters.

[Commissar K.]

Except that the Mark of Khorne is a requirement by the simple fact any unit with the <Mark of Chaos> must have <Mark of Khorne>. Which means units that restricted from taking the MoK, are excluded from the WE Legion keyword.

 

You can still have sorcerers, rubrics, NMs, etc in a WE Legion army, but only if they have a different Legion keyword.

 

That's why I suggested saying Blood Priests or something else as the Legion keyword.

 

You can have them in the army, just not as World Eaters.

Mark of Chaos Keyword is not Khorne Keyword nor is it Nurgle, Slaanesh or Tzeentch.

 

My point remains simple and is RAW.

 

1. You can change Keyword <Legion> to World Eaters.

2. If you do so and the unit has the <Mark of Chaos> Keyword it must be Khorne. However neither Khorne nor Mark of Chaos are a requirement for 1. Nor is Mark of Chaos the same keyword as Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh. You only have to change those with Keyword <Mark of Chaos>.

3. Khorne Berzerkers with the Khorne Keyword become Troop choices.

 

What this leaves us with is:

- All the choices for WE and EC. Plague Marines with the World Eater Keyword are a possible option because of 1. Point 2 is not a check because the Mark of Chaos Keyword isn't there. However as said, the Keyword Khorne is not a requirement to be part of World Eaters to begin with.

- Likewise, Khorne Berzerkers can still be taken as non-Troop choices, you just have to fill <Legion> with another Keyword, they can even have the Emperors Children Keyword if you wish so.

 

The same principle applies for the Emperor's Children aswell. Both Thousand Sons and Death Guard do not have this option because the Index specifically states they do not.

As before all the choices are there and many of them can have the World Eater Keyword instead of <Legion>. This also includes Rubric Marines, Plague Marines and Noise Marines.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Commissar K.