Tzaangors and Poxwalkers, Legion only?

[Kol Saresk]

......... It actually says that Mark of Chaos is the same as keyword Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch. It even uses Khârn having the keyword Khorne as an example. So sorry, but the RAW is against you.

 

But like I said, if you and your group wanna house rule it, then cool beans.

[Commissar K.]

......... It actually says that Mark of Chaos is the same as keyword Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch. It even uses Khârn having the keyword Khorne as an example. 

 

 

No it does not say that at all.

 

What it says is that you can change Mark of Chaos. As it is not the same Keyword as Khorne, Nurgle etc. What you then do is remove <Mark of Chaos> Keyword and replace it with either Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh OR NOTHING.

 

This is simple RAW, not narrative driven.

 

Give it a read and I will point you to the pages if you ask.

 

If Mark of Chaos Keyword was a requirement, Khârn, Khorne Berzerkers and Daemon Prince would be illigal. They are not however because Legion does not check any Mark. All it says is that if you have the Mark of Chaos Keyword it must become Khorne.

What it does not say is that you must have the Khorne Keyword to obtain the World Eater Keyword. They could have gone that route but have not, RAW.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Kol Saresk]

Page 10.

 

Some datasheets specify the Mark of Chaos(e.g. Khârn the Betrayer has the Khorne keyword). If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specificy which Mark of Chaos a unit has, it will have the <Mark of Chaos> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Mark of Chaos that unit has. You then simply replace the <Mark of Chaos> keyword in every instance on that unit's datasheet with one of the following: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, or Slaanesh. Note that Psykers cannot have the Khorne keyword.

 

Now we go to pg 45.

 

Servants of Khorne

 

If a World Eaters unit has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword, it must be Khorne. Similarly World Eaters Daemon Princes must owe their allegiance to Khorne.

 

That is RAW. You cannot have a Sorcerer with the keyword World Eaters because you cannot have a Sorcerer with the Khorne keyword because a Sorcerer has the Psyker keyword.

 

It's not a matter of narrative driven, personal opinion of the background, or anything else.

 

It is RAW.

[Kol Saresk]

It is not "you need Khorne to get World Eater". It is that if you take the World Eater keyword, you must also have the Khorne word. Sorcerers cannot take that keyword, and so they cannot have the other. It's that simple.

 

You can still have sorcerers in World Eater armies. You just can't have sorcerers with the World Eaters keyword.

[Scammel]

What it says is that you can change Mark of Chaos.

It doesn't, I'm afraid. It says you must ​replace it, and 'nothing' is not an option.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Scammel

[Commissar K.]

It is not "you need Khorne to get World Eater". It is that if you take the World Eater keyword, you must also have the Khorne word. Sorcerers cannot take that keyword, and so they cannot have the other. It's that simple.

 

You can still have sorcerers in World Eater armies. You just can't have sorcerers with the World Eaters keyword.

Again, that is not the case my friend.

- In order to obtain the World Eater Keyword you must have <Legion>.

- ONLY Mark of Chaos Keyword units must have Khorne, many models do not have the Mark of Chaos Keyword, for example the Khorne Lord of Skulls.

 

As before, I think the Choas Sorcerer example is dubious.

However there is again nothing preventing you from having one still. As before, Rubric Marines are optional World Eaters. 

1. They have the Legion Keyword. Thus apply to World Eaters Legion ruling. 

2. They do not have the Mark of Chaos Keyword. But again this is not a requirement to obtain World Eaters Keyword.

 

 

What it says is that you can change Mark of Chaos.

It doesn't, I'm afraid. It says you must ​replace it, and 'nothing' is not an option.

 

Nothing is an option:

 

 

There is even a reason for several units to not replace it. Being the Icon of Vengeance or creating a Fall themed army for example. Who also do not have the Mark of Chaos Keyword. Though there are many more examples without the Mark of Chaos Keyword.

 

Cheers,

Edited June 24, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Kol Saresk]

I honestly do not know if you are being intentionally obtuse or if you are honestly not comprehending that <Mark of Chaos>, Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Nurgle are the Mark of Chaos keywords.

[Commissar K.]

I honestly do not know if you are being intentionally obtuse or if you are honestly not comprehending that <Mark of Chaos>, Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, and Nurgle are the Mark of Chaos keywords.

I honestly do not know if you understand the meaning of Keywords. In regards to your responces the awnser is that you likely have no idea how they work. Their rules are explained in the BRB. 

 

Keyword Mark of Chaos is A

You can replace Keyword A to 1,2,3,4 or 5

If you replace Keyword A to 1, Keyword 1 is not A.

 

The Keyword <Mark of Chaos> is not the same as Keyword Khorne, Nurgle etc, cannot be the same and all <Mark of Chaos> allows for is to be changed or not at all.

The same applies to Legion. If you read page 10 explaining the Mark of Chaos it tells you must change the Keyword <Mark of Chaos> to Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch or not at all. The moment you do that the Mark of Chaos Keyword is lost/replaced for ANOTHER Keyword.

 

Keyword <Legion> currently can be changed in World Eaters. The moment you do so you do not require the Khorne Keyword.

All the current RAW tell you is to change the Keyword <Mark of Chaos> to Khorne and there are several models who do not have the <Mark of Chaos> Keyword. Again Keyword <Mark of Chaos> is not the same as Keyword Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch.

 

Change and replace does not mean that it is the same Keyword. For the purpose of abilities, synergies and army design it is not the same Keyword. It's simple yet you fail to understand it. I understand it's new to you but this is how Keywords work. If they are different they are not the same. 

 

--

 

What this allows for is to have Plague Marines change the <Legion> Keyword to World Eaters. 

There is no change to <Mark of Chaos> Keyword because there is no <Mark of Chaos> Keyword.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Commissar K.

[raziel69r]

Commissar K. It really seems like you are trying to cheese around the rules.. A world Eater army must all be marked with khorne, If anything can not have the khorne keyword then it can not be in the army.   

I understand, you want it your way and you will use whatever thin logic you can muster to validate your interpretation of the rules but I am afraid that like many have said before me, you are wrong! 

[Scammel]

Even by this logic, Sorcerers are excluded from WE lists. The <Mark of Chaos> cannot be dropped, merely 'unassigned', which the WE list does not allow.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Scammel

[Kol Saresk]

Anyways, going back to the original topic, we can all agree that units like the Tzaangors and Poxwalkers, which have specific Legion keywords, can only function in detachments composed of those respective Legions because 1.)Legion keyword and 2.)any Mark of Chaos restrictions.

 

That said, you can have armies that mix and match all pver the place, you just have to have multiple detachments.

[Kol Saresk]

Know what? I take part of that back. Because you are supposed to be able to take Plague Marines in armies other than Death Guard. Like the Black Legion for example.

 

And the BRB and Index: Chaos says nothing about units in a detachment all having to have the same Legion keyword. So I'd argue that you could have say, a Patrol Detachment that is Khârn, a Sorcerer, and two squads of Berzerkers, provided the sorcerer does not have the World Eater keyword, and you are using the Chaos/Heretic Astartes keyword to assemble your army.

 

So Tzaangors and Poxwalkers, etc can be mixed and matched into detachments containing other keywords, as long as you are using a keyword other than their Legion.

 

IIRC, this goes back to when everyone was talking about auras because they are usually worded for the Legion keyword, not Chaos.

 

So, for example, a detachment containing Chaos Sorcerer, and two squads of Tzaangors can still be in the same detachment even if the Sorcerer had the Night Lords keyword. And so the sorcerer could even have the keyword Nurgle, but then it could not have the keyword Thousand Sons.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Know what? I take part of that back. Because you are supposed to be able to take Plague Marines in armies other than Death Guard. Like the Black Legion for example.

 

And the BRB and Index: Chaos says nothing about units in a detachment all having to have the same Legion keyword. So I'd argue that you could have say, a Patrol Detachment that is Khârn, a Sorcerer, and two squads of Berzerkers, provided the sorcerer does not have the World Eater keyword, and you are using the Chaos/Heretic Astartes keyword to assemble your army.

 

So Tzaangors and Poxwalkers, etc can be mixed and matched into detachments containing other keywords, as long as you are using a keyword other than their Legion.

 

IIRC, this goes back to when everyone was talking about auras because they are usually worded for the Legion keyword, not Chaos.

 

So, for example, a detachment containing Chaos Sorcerer, and two squads of Tzaangors can still be in the same detachment even if the Sorcerer had the Night Lords keyword. And so the sorcerer could even have the keyword Nurgle, but then it could not have the keyword Thousand Sons.

 

I am fairly certain this is correct. 

 

In one of my lists for the Black Legion its very heavily Death Guard oriented, so I take a Black Legion Lord, A Lord of Contagion as the second HQ for the army to buff Poxwalkers.  I then take pox walkers (under DG keyword) for troops, Cultists (under black legion) for troops,  and I take plauge marines under Black Legion (as I find that keyword more useful currently) as Elites, so they benefit from the Chaos Lord, but NOT the lord of contagion. 

 

I also take a Noxious blightbringer as elite (DG keyword as its locked to make the pox walkers/Lord walk....faster..) while taking a unit of Chosen under Black Legion, and a Foetid Blight Drone under Fast with the DG keyword (again locked) all within a SINGLE detachment. As far as I am aware there's no rhyme or reason (or even requirement) to separate them via detachment, at least until the acutal Codexs start rolling out. 

 

My Thousand sons STAY pure thousand sons in every game for personal reasons,  but as Prot said earlier, minus Genestealer Cult, Adeptus Mechanicus as the notable exceptions,  I haven't seen many armies that takes negatives (or loses buffs) because of taking several various factions in a single detachment (only requirement is all models IN a detachment must share a single keyword)

 

[Kol Saresk]

Here we go.

[Commissar K.]

Commissar K. It really seems like you are trying to cheese around the rules.. A world Eater army must all be marked with khorne, If anything can not have the khorne keyword then it can not be in the army.

I understand, you want it your way and you will use whatever thin logic you can muster to validate your interpretation of the rules but I am afraid that like many have said before me, you are wrong!

Even by this logic, Sorcerers are excluded from WE lists. The <Mark of Chaos> cannot be dropped, merely 'unassigned', which the WE list does not allow.

Know what? I take part of that back. Because you are supposed to be able to take Plague Marines in armies other than Death Guard. Like the Black Legion for example.

And the BRB and Index: Chaos says nothing about units in a detachment all having to have the same Legion keyword. So I'd argue that you could have say, a Patrol Detachment that is Kh Edited June 25, 2017 by Commissar K.

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[Plaguecaster]

Mark of Khorne is indeed a keyword in a sense as you substitute it for the Khorne keyword if you even bothered to read what you even quoted let's spell it out for you if you missed it

 

"You then simply replace <mark of chaos> keyword in every instance on that units dataslate with one of the following KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH or SLAANESH. Note that PSYKERS cannot have the KHORNE keyword" that is why there is no mark of Chaos keyword on plague marines because they already have the NURGLE keyword

 

 

so if I take a chaos lord and choose to take the mark of Khorne it instead becomes the Khorne keyword likewise with daemons if I choose to dedicate a daemon prince to Khorne it doesn't get the daemon of Khorne keyword but the Khorne keyword it's why there is absolutely no actual daemons of Khorne keyword but the two seperate ones of Daemons and Khorne. To have the world eaters legion keyword it must take the mark of Khorne which grants the Khorne Keyword there is no middle ground if it can't take the mark of Khorne (which Sorcerers clearly can't ) then you can't give them world eaters It's that damn aimple

 

It's pretty simple to understand so we might as well lock this topic since you clearly have started taking this massively off topic

Edited June 25, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Commissar K.]

Mark of Khorne is indeed a keyword in a sense as you substitute it for the Khorne keyword so if I take a chaos lord and choose to take the mark of Khorne it instead becomes the Khorne keyword likewise with daemons if I choose to dedicate a daemon prince to Khorne it doesn't get the daemon of Khorne keyword but the Khorne keyword it's why there is absolutely no actual daemons of Khorne keyword but the two seperate ones of Daemons and Khorne. To have the world eaters legion keyword it must take the mark of Khorne which grants the Khorne Keyword there is no middle ground if it can't take the mark of Khorne (which Sorcerers clearly can't ) then you can't give them world eaters It's that damn aimple

 

It's pretty simple to understand so we might as well lock this topic since you clearly have started taking this massively off topic

This is why I think the matter is so important, there is no Mark of Khorne Keyword.

- There is for example a Khorne Keyword and there is a Chaos Keyword. The Chaos Keyword is also not the same as the <Mark of Chaos> Keyword.

- As before, currently there is no Mark of Khorne Keyword. There is a Khorne Keyword. But implying it is the same as <Mark of Chaos> Keyword is incorrect. As same example, Chaos is also not the same as <Mark of Chaos> Keyword.

 

The topic at hand is not offtopic at all. Because players are left with an impression that they are somehow restricted in choices, while there is no such a rule that states that.

 

Even within the book itself the Death Guard and Thousand Sons are given as the prime example that only their Keywords are restricted in options, wheras World Eaters, Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emperors Children, Iron Warriors, Night Lords and many more are not.

 

As before there is no requirement for <Legion> to change to World Eaters and also have Keyword Khorne. As there is no such a rule that enforces that. All that is required is to have <Legion> Keyword be present. Then if Keyword <Mark of Chaos> is there it needs to be changed to Khorne. Yet many do not have the <Mark of Chaos> Keyword to begin with, examples given again are Daemon Prince and Lord of Skulls. 

There is no requirement to have <Mark of Chaos>  change to Khorne and then (and only then) be available to the Legion.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Plaguecaster]

I'll post this again

 

"You then simply replace <mark of chaos> keyword in every instance on that units dataslate with one of the following KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH or SLAANESH. Note that PSYKERS cannot have the KHORNE keyword" that is why there is no mark of Chaos keyword on plague marines because they already have the NURGLE keyword

 

"If a world eaters unit has <Mark of Chaos> it must be KHORNE " this doesn't mean mark of Khorne it means through the process above ( which you have quoted multiple times but blatantly ignore) it gains Khorne keyword if it can't gain the Khorne Keyword which PSYKERS CAN'T (once again read above ) then it can't gain the WORLD EATERS keyword

Simple ??? Yes can we drop it now

[Commissar K.]

I'll post this again

 

that is why there is no mark of Chaos keyword on plague marines because they already have the NURGLE keyword

 

"If a world eaters unit has <Mark of Chaos> it must be KHORNE " this doesn't mean mark of Khorne it means through the process above ( which you have quoted multiple times but blatantly ignore) it gains Khorne keyword if it can't gain the Khorne Keyword which PSYKERS CAN'T (once again read above ) then it can't gain the WORLD EATERS keyword

Simple ??? Yes can we drop it now

Plague Marines have no <Mark of Chaos> Keyword. This means that <Legion> can still change to World Eaters and there is no <Mark of Chaos> Keyword "check" to be made.

 

What you are suggesting is not inline with how Keywords work as a rule. Because you are now implying that Chaos is the same as Mark of Chaos aswell. This is not the case either.

 

A Keyword is one thing, never two or five. The moment you change it or it is changed it's not the same.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Plaguecaster]

God it's like talking to a brick wall you also quoted me on half my post but clearly ignored the other which supports it, Mods please I'm begging you just nuke this thread, what I just quoted was excatly from the index book and excatly the same thing what you quoted that is excatly how it is written you substitute the mark of chaos for the Khorne keyword if you want to dedicate a unit to Khorne and have the world eaters keyword which you substitute the LEGION keyword for, I don't know how it works for non god maybe you keep the mark of chaos keyword anyway if you want a sorcerer to have the world eaters legion keyword you can't since you must take the Khorne keyword, if you can't (and psykers can't) then it can't gain the world eaters keyword . Likewise plague marines can't have the World eaters or Emperors children Keyword because they have the Nurgle keyword

 

Yes a key word is one thing but we have multiple

CHAOS, HERECTICUS ASTARTES, <MARK OF CHAOS> <LEGION>

To get World eaters you must have KHORNE keyword which is gained when you choose Khorne through <Mark of Chaos> As per the index rules if it can't take the KHORNE keyword then you can't give it the WORLD EATERS keyword you can give them any of the other legions like BLACK LEGION, ALPHA LEGION as long as it's not one of the god legions which require the god KEyword, no SLAANESH keyword then no EMPERORS CHILDREN key word likewise no KHORNE keyword no WORLD EATERS keyword

Edited June 25, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Kol Saresk]

.................................................

[Panzer]

What the heck...I've rarely seen someone forcefully misunderstanding rules to such a degree.

[Commissar K.]

To get World eaters you must have KHORNE keyword which is gained when you choose Khorne through <Mark of Chaos> As per the index rules if it can't take the KHORNE keyword then you can't give it the WORLD EATERS keyword you can give them any of the other legions like BLACK LEGION, ALPHA LEGION as long as it's not one of the god legions which require the god KEyword, no SLAANESH keyword then no EMPERORS CHILDREN key word likewise no KHORNE keyword no WORLD EATERS keyword

To get World Eaters Keyword you must have Keyword <Legion>. In addition it must be on page 16 to 42. e.g. Plague Marines are a legal choice to change <Legion>.

 

--

 

If you have <Mark of Chaos> Keyword, it must change to Khorne. e.g. Plague Marines do not have Keyword <Mark of Chaos>. There is no rule that states World Eaters must have Keyword Khorne. 

 

Again, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch or Chaos are not the same Keyword as Keyword <Mark of Chaos>.

It's not a matter of forcefully misunderstanding. It's following Rules as Written.

 

There is not a single page in the Index Chaos that says <Legion> requires the <Mark of Chaos> Keyword to be changed to Khorne or Slaanesh. 

If the <Mark of Chaos> Keyword was a requirement you could not thake Khorne Berzerkers or Daemon Princes for they do not have the <Mark of Chaos> Keyword.

 

In addition it refers to pages 16 to 42, if it wanted to exclude several unit types it would have told us so the way Thousand Sons and Death Guard have a specific list of units that are capable of changing <Legion> to respectably Thousand Sons and Death Guard.

 

As much as you guys would like it, Keyword <Mark of Chaos> nor Keyword Khorne is a requirement to change Keyword <Legion>. What is a secondary requirement is to change Keyword <Mark of Chaos> to Khorne, again quite some units do not have Keyword <Mark of Chaos> on page 16 to 42 and they are all legal as per optional change of <Legion> to World Eaters.

 

--

 

Point remains, you can change <Legion> to a lot of different names, with Thousand Sons and Death Guard being the two Legions with fewer options as others.

As per that rule <Legion> has nothing to do with Keyword <Mark of Chaos> it's because of that the two do not enforce anything upon each other.

 

In the case of World Eaters and Emperors Children the only additional change required is to the units with Keyword <Mark of Chaos> a keyword not all available units have.

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Panzer]

 

It's not a matter of forcefully misunderstanding. It's following Rules as Written.

 

No. It really is a matter of forcefully misunderstanding and has nothing to do with RAW.

[Scammel]

I think the social contract will sort this one out. The moment anyone comes to the table and proudly declares that though regular Sorcerers are illegal in a WE list (because that's absolutely the case even with this logic - they have <Mark of Chaos> but cannot have Khorne), Disc Sorcerers are fine because they are Tzeentch, I have a feeling the situation will be resolved very quickly.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Scammel