Tzaangors and Poxwalkers, Legion only?

Petitioner's City · June 25, 2017

But a list can mix legions, yah? So you can have World Eaters, Death Guard, etc., in the same list - it is just that the restricted units (sorcerors for WEs, havocs or berserkers for Death Guard, for example) cannot take the legion code word - they will be something else but within the same detachment.

Panzer · June 25, 2017

But a list can mix legions, yah? So you can have World Eaters, Death Guard, etc., in the same list - it is just that the restricted units (sorcerors for WEs, havocs or berserkers for Death Guard, for example) cannot take the legion code word - they will be something else but within the same detachment.

Yeah that's entirely possible and won't make much of a difference for now.

Sonoftherubric21 · June 25, 2017

Uhhh....Wow....THREAD DERAIL! lol.

A unit that is a psyker cannot be Khorne marked. For it has always and forever shall be so! sayeth the dark gods! (And the emprah!)

And models that are marked already (locked into a mark) cannot be marked as something else; World Eaters and Khârn will FOREVER be Khorne marked, you cannot have nurgle berzerkers, as an example. Same with all the Thousand Sons and soon to be Death Guard units; the "legion" slot may be open, but if the mark is inclusive in the Legion slot change (I.e., a rubric unit must ALWAYS be tzeentch marked, even if used in Black Legion, Iron warriors, or Word Bearers) it cannot change to a "world eaters rubric" unit, as the mark (tzeentch) is already accounted for in the base-unit, you DO NOT have the luxury of swapping.

I don't really understand how its difficult to get. its pretty plainly written. Death guard are nurgle, World eaters are khorne (no pskyers for you!), Tzeentch is Thousand Sons, and Emperors children are Slannesh. Never; in the history of the game has this been the case. And quite frankly I wouldn't accept it if someone walked up to me and said "I have a khorne marked sorcerer" nope. not a thing. Never.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Sonoftherubric21

Kol Saresk · June 25, 2017

Yeah. That's what most of us have been saying in one form or another all along.

Panzer · June 25, 2017

I don't really understand how its difficult to get. its pretty plainly written.

Part of his argument seems to be that <KHORNE> is not the same as when you replace with Khorne which is a really ridiculous claim lol

Kol Saresk · June 25, 2017

Especially since Khârn, a model who automatically comes with Khorne, is used as the example of what happens when you replace the with the keyword Khorne.

Sonoftherubric21 · June 25, 2017

Well I think part of the issue hes having is this;

< This > is the indicator of a "swappable" keyword.

Note; Plauge marines in the elite slot have <Legion> but ARE marked "Nurgle" IT DOES NOT SAY <Nurgle> indicating a swap is possible. Then you look at the Plauge marines in the troop slot for the Death Guard, both "Legion" (Death Guard) and "Mark of chaos" (Nurgle) are LOCKED.

You cannot swap them. period, a locked keyword is a defining trait of a unit (Heretic astartes, chaos, daemon, daemon engine, ect) and the ones that are swap-able are specifically and EXPLICITLY noted as such using < this > Symbolism, it really is THAT easy.

If there is not denotation of a keyword swap, you cant do it.

Petitioner's City · June 25, 2017

So, to help maybe, this is the rulebook, p. 214:

ARMY FACTION

All of the units ina matched play army, witht eh exception of those which are UNALIGNED, mst have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. IMperium or Chaos), even though they may be in different detachments.

Then on p. 240:

All the units belong to one or more of the many factions that fight for dominance across the galaxy. A unit's Faction is important when building a battle-forged army, because some detachments require all units included in it to be from the same faction. [...] a Space Marine Captain has the Imperium and Adeptus Astartes keywords, so belongs to both the Imperium and Adeptus Astartes Factions. This means that if a Space Marine Captain was part of a Detachment with the restriction that all units must be from the same faction, all other units in that detachment must either be from the Imperium faction, or they must all be from the Adeptus Astartes faction.

So you can use Poxwalkers and Tzaangors, as well as Magnus, the unreleased Mortarion, Scarab Occult, Exalted Sorcerers, spiffy Plague guys, etc., in any detachment which includes units of the CHAOS faction.

Kol Saresk · June 25, 2017

Yep. Which is something no one is disputing.

It's the part where he says that you can have units in the four Cult Legions, using their Legion keywords, but then ignoring all of their restrictions.

eg World Eaters Sorcerer, or Death Guard Berzerkers.

Petitioner's City · June 25, 2017

Yep. Which is something no one is disputing.

It's the part where he says that you can have units in the four Cult Legions, using their Legion keywords, but then ignoring all of their restrictions.

eg World Eaters Sorcerer, or Death Guard Berzerkers.

Yes indeed, that seems an obtuse argument - or just a devil advocate attempt to show the absurdity of the system as written vs the fluff. But every set of rules do have that, so why do people do it?

As for quoting the rule book, unfortunately some people do dispute the overarching faction keyword by suggesting needing different detachments, rather than say a patrol detachment with different kind of chaos units (astartes, daemons,knights, eyrine, renegades, etc)

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

I don't really understand how its difficult to get. its pretty plainly written.

Part of his argument seems to be that <KHORNE> is not the same as when you replace with Khorne which is a really ridiculous claim lol

Keyword <Khorne> does also not excists. Some might find this vision obtuse or 'wrong' but in this new edition of Keywords, like in AoS the Keyword question is always yes/no. Not both. Keyword is not the same as Keyword Khorne, Chaos, Daemon etc.

In order to change your Keyword <Legion> all you need is Keyword <Legion>. The way Servants of Khorne is worded does not require the Khorne Keyword for World Eaters. All it requires is that models with the Keyword are changed to Khorne Keyword. Only the Keyword can change and the moment you do so it stops being that Keyword.

Again there are several units depicted on the pages available for World Eaters, these include many without the Keyword .

Yep. Which is something no one is disputing.

It's the part where he says that you can have units in the four Cult Legions, using their Legion keywords, but then ignoring all of their restrictions.

eg World Eaters Sorcerer, or Death Guard Berzerkers.

Yes indeed, that seems an obtuse argument - or just a devil advocate attempt to show the absurdity of the system as written vs the fluff. But every set of rules do have that, so why do people do it?

As for quoting the rule book, unfortunately some people do dispute the overarching faction keyword by suggesting needing different detachments, rather than say a patrol detachment with different kind of chaos units (astartes, daemons,knights, eyrine, renegades, etc)

Again it's not obtuse at all. What we see here is that several new designs do not match fluff whatsoever.

- Death Guard Keyword cannot be put on Chaos Terminators unit, yet Chaos Lord and Sorcerer in Terminator armour are no issue.

- Death Guard Keyword can be put on the Chaos Rhino, Chaos Predator and Chaos Land Raider, the Chaos Vindicator for whatever reason is not capable to thake the Keyword.

- Thousand Sons Keyword cannot be put on Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch, for again reasons unknown to us.

- ForgeWorld's Lord Zhufor, part of World Eaters, does not have the World Eater Keyword.

What we see is that there is no narrative consistancy going on the rules whatsoever and there is nothing within the rules that enforces us to not have any other Keyword for those with <Legion>. The only thing we do have is that Thousand Sons and Death Guard are more restricted, in very dubious ways if you know anything about the narrative setting.

The point remains that with the RAW Keyword Chaos is not the same as Keyword and likewise Keyword is not the same as Khorne.

The moment something tells you to swap Keyword to Khorne it only applies to those models with Keyword .

As before I'm not trying to bend anything, I'm following RAW not RAI. Thanks for your patience and visions guys. I hope it will be FAQ'd. As there is no official responce to this. I understand all your narrative visions on this rule 100% but there is nothing that says models with Keyword World Eaters or Keyword Emperor's Children should also have Keyword Khorne or Keyword Slaanesh. If it was stated in that exact simple sentence then yes it would be the case. Written as it is now that is not the case.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Commissar K.

Plaguecaster · June 26, 2017

God you never let up do you mate :D I don't know if you are just taking an ad joke well past it's punch line or actually believe it. fine feel free to play how you want, just expect the majority of the people you play to disagree with you since it is written as clear as day in both the index and rulebook. Good luck trying to get tournament organisers to agree with it :D

I mean yeah let's completely ignore this bit of text which is clearly worded in the index (which you quoted several time but failed to read) so there is no other way around which you keep going on about

"Some dataslates specify the Mark of Chaos for a unit (e.g Khârn the betrayer has the KHORNE keyword)" a keyword you clearly believe doesn't exist he also has the keywords

CHAOS, KHORNE, HERECTICUS ASTARTES, WORLD EATERS. So you see the KHORNE keyword is what you get when you choose to dedicate a model with the Or <DAEMON OF CHAOS> to Khorne replacing the or <DAEMON OF CHAOS> keyword. I mean there is a reason why Icons of wrath can only be taken KHORNE units otherwise with your logic no terminator, raptors or Possessed can take them since they clearly don't have the KHORNE keyword as you say since they have instead

Panzer · June 26, 2017

Geez at some point a person just HAS to realize that he is the one who's wrong and not everyone else on the planet....well or maybe not I guess.

Anyway it's a moot point to discuss with someone who just doesn't want to listen. I mean I can't even put quotes forward to my point because he already quoted the right parts himself but decided to interpret it in a really weird and ridiculous way.

Can mod please shut this down finally? It's neither constructive, nor sensible, nor is it on topic of this thread.

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

The thing is no, I'm not thaking it as a joke at all. I understand that the community that has been around here is upset by the complete lack of narrative logic but I'm saying the book and the Forge World books are full of lack of narrative logic.

We have even come to a point where FW will announce that their Chaos Index will have acces to Keyword Death Guard etc. because under the current RAW not a single option in there could change their <Legion> Keyword to one of the relevant Keywords.

There is no bit of text I am ignoring. What I am stating again is that Keyword can be changed to another Keyword. When you do so it stops being Keyword . There is no prequisite to having Keyword to obtain Keyword World Eaters. It is only said that when you do have keyword it must change to Khorne. It does not state you need the Khorne Keyword.

As before, the Khârn example states that he has Keyword Khorne (no dispute there).
- Some Dataslates however have the Keyword while others have not. The moment they have this Keyword they CAN change it. (no dispute there).
- The moment you do not have Keyword there is nothing to be changed.
- Some Dataslates however have the <Legion> Keyword while others have not. The moment they have this Keyword they CAN change it.
- The moment you do not have <Legion> Keyword there is nothing to be changed.

Again the same applies to how World Eaters work out now.
1. Changing <Legion> has nothing to do with other Keywords.
2. All World Eaters enforce is that the units with the Keyword change it. Again not all available units have this Keyword.

Cheers,

--

I'm just left to assume that narrative logic does apply here while the rest of the book ignores it? Really? That is the only defence that is taken here?
Poxwalkers are available to all, Tzaangors are available to all, Khorne Berzerkers can always become Troop choices...
Though the moment you only change Keyword <Legion> to World Eaters this whole debate becomes invalid? My friends, the pages contain several units again without the Keyword who are all legally able to change their Keyword <Legion>.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Commissar K.

Panzer · June 26, 2017

Dude, we're not even talking about narrative logic. Even without considering any narrative whatsoever your way of interperting the rules is just bull :cuss .

Panzer · June 26, 2017

My friends, the pages contain several units again without the Keyword who are all legally able to change their Keyword <Legion>.

What kind of justification is that supposed to be?

The World Eater rules clearly say that "If a World Eater unit has the keyword, it must be <Khorne>."

So without the keyword there is obviously no need to be <Khorne>. And since is equivalent to <Slaanesh>, <Tzeentch> and <Nurgle> you can't give units who have one of those fix the <World Eater> Legion keyword.

It's not rocket science.

So that leaves us with two options: Either you don't understand basic english words like "if" and "equivalent" or you simply forcefully misunderstand simple sentences....which would make you a pretty bad troll and a future candidate for my ignore list. Either way it's a moot point to discuss with you.

Edited June 26, 2017 by sfPanzer

Plaguecaster · June 26, 2017

It is only said that when you do have keyword it must change to Khorne.

look I even quoted you . In order to gain World Eaters as you put you must change MARK OF CHAOS to the KHORNE keyword instead, if you can not gain the KHORNE keyword which PSYKER can never be allowed then they cannot gain the WORLD EATERS keyword. Its that simple likewise if you already have the NURGLE keyword you can not gain the KHORNE keyword as well so NO WORLD EATERS keyword for PLAGUE MARINES since they MUST have the KHORNE keyword which is UNLOCKED through marks of chaos by rreplacing the MARK OF CHAOS with KHORNE in order to dedicate a unit to KHORNE so you can gain the WORLD EATERS keyword which you MUST abide by with the restrictions in order to select it

Panzer · June 26, 2017

It is only said that when you do have keyword it must change to Khorne.

look I even quoted you . In order to gain World Eaters as you put you must change MARK OF CHAOS to the KHORNE keyword instead, if you can not gain the KHORNE keyword which PSYKER can never be allowed then they cannot gain the WORLD EATERS keyword

Just to clarify: not being allowed to take the Khorne keyword is not the same as not being able to take the Khorne keyword due lack of keyword. That's two entirely different things.

The first makes you unable to be part of the World Eater Legion since you technically can be dedicated to a god, just not Khorne while the latter lets you be part of the World Eater Legion since you aren't dedicated to any god whatsoever, so you are free to join whoever you want (as long as there isn't some pesky list you have to be on like for Death Guard and TSons).

So Sorcerer can't join World Eaters, but a Rhino and Deamon Engines can. :P

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

My friends, the pages contain several units again without the Keyword who are all legally able to change their Keyword <Legion>.

What kind of justification is that supposed to be?

The World Eater rules clearly say that "If a World Eater unit has the keyword, it must be <Khorne>."

So without the keyword there is obviously no need to be <Khorne>. And since is equivalent to <Slaanesh>, <Tzeentch> and <Nurgle> you can't give units who have one of those fix the <World Eater> Legion keyword.

It's not rocket science.

So that leaves us with two options: Either you don't understand basic english words like "if" and "equivalent" or you simply forcefully misunderstand simple sentences....which would make you a pretty bad troll and a future candidate for my ignore list. Either way it's a moot point to discuss with you.

Again there is no Keyword <Khorne>. Keywords are very specific, they are the one or the other and never both.

Where we agree is that <Legion> does not rquire any other Keyword. All it requires is <Legion>.

Keyword is NOT the equivalent of other Keywords. It never is and never will be.

When we look at the World Eater option we see that 1. Models must have Keyword <Legion>. 2. Models who have Keyword must change it to Khorne.

Again there are many options available who do not have Keyword .

If you deem me a troll because I'm reading RAW and not RAI that's up to you. I agree with you that from a narrative standpoint it makes no sence. Likewise it makes no sence that a Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch cannot obtain Keyword Thousand Sons, that a Vindicator and Chaos Terminators cannot obtain Keyword Death Guard and that Zhufor does not have Keyword World Eaters.

In all these cases narrative logic does not apply and there is no rule that allows us to apply narrative logic. Likewise there is no rule that states that in order to have <Legion> change to World Eaters you must also have Keyword Khorne. All that is stated is that units with Keyword must change it to Khorne. Chaos Index does not state is the same as Khorne.

Keywords are black and white, yes and no. The moment a Keyword "check" has to be made it only applies to the units who have that Keyword. This also means that this check is skipped for Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch. Because those Keywords are not .

The question is forwarded to GW. I hope they will clarify it.

I'll leave it at this because it clearly upsets you a lot that the narrative logic doesn't apply. My intention again is not to troll, annoy of whatever. I would be very happy if World Eaters would require you to have Keyword Khorne, but under the current rules this is not a requirement.

My intend really is not to upset anyone but to have a clarification on this. The way Keywords work is that they are A or B never AB.

It is only said that when you do have keyword it must change to Khorne.

look I even quoted you . In order to gain World Eaters as you put you must change MARK OF CHAOS to the KHORNE keyword instead,

No, you do not have to have the Keyword in order to change <Legion> to World Eaters. Otherwise things like Khorne Lord of Skulls would be illigal as it does not have the Keyword.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Commissar K.

Panzer · June 26, 2017

Again there is no Keyword <Khorne>.

EDIT because I think I found what's your problem with understanding some postes here:

Sorry if that wasn't clear enough, but when I write <Khorne> i mean Khorne as it's much easier to type this way on the internet and because there are forums that use settings that don't make it very clear when something is written in bold.

Of course you can't exchange Khorne for something else like you could and <Legion>. However that much should've been obvious to you just from the context of my posts already....

Also I love that you keep coming back to "I'll leave it at this because it clearly upsets you a lot that the narrative logic doesn't apply" this even tho it was NEVER about narrative logic in the first place. It was always about RAW.

Edited June 26, 2017 by sfPanzer

Gordon Shumway · June 26, 2017

Okay, here is what I'm confused about: you said "As before, the Khârn example states that he has Keyword Khorne (no dispute there)."

In your very next post you state, "Again there is no Keyword <Khorne>"

Are you somehow making the distinction that the < > mean something that we aren't seeing? The < >, at least from my understanding, is just a marker that means "you can change the words in here". The rules for WE state, if a unit has , the word that has to replace the "mark of chaos" bit must be "Khorne"

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

Again there is no Keyword <Khorne>.

I'd like to say some things that would probably get me a warning from the mods right now so this picture has to be enough.

Anyway, since I don't think you don't understand basic english I go ahead and consider you just a bad troll, so excuse me when I can't take you serious in future discussions anymore.

That is your choice. This discussion has nothing to do with basic English and everything to do with Keywords. The placement of Keywords is not subjective but objective.

As before, the fact that Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch cannot have Keyword Thousand Sons is strange but it is a fact. Likewise the fact that Zhufor does not have Keyword World Eaters is strange.

As said my intention is not to troll but to be specific. Keywords are not AB, the whole explanation on how Keyword works is exclusive to Keyword . You cannot change Keyword Khorne, Nurgle etc. on other models like you can with Keyword and that is because they are not and never will become the same Keyword.

The same page also tells us how <Legion> can be changed to anything and that only (AND ONLY) Keyword Thousand Sons and Death Guard are not available to all units with Keyword <Legion>.

Okay, here is what I'm confused about: you said "As before, the Khârn example states that he has Keyword Khorne (no dispute there)."

In your very next post you state, "Again there is no Keyword <Khorne>"

Are you somehow making the distinction that the < > mean something that we aren't seeing? The < >, at least from my understanding, is just a marker that means "you can change the words in here". The rules for WE state, if a unit has , the word that has to replace the "mark of chaos" bit must be "Khorne"

I am saying that the explanation on Keyword is exclusive to it.

What it tells us is that not all units have the Keyword and those that have it can chage it to Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch or nothing.

Keywords all are different. Keyword Chaos is also not the same as Keyword . Keyword Khorne is also not the same as Keyword . If you have to make a Keyword check you specifically check it for that Keyword. As before there is nothing stating models with the Keyword World Eaters must have Keyword Khorne aswell. If it would state that this would not be a dispute but it does not state that.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Commissar K.

Gordon Shumway · June 26, 2017

So, in your mind, in order for the rule to mean what everybody else here thinks it means, how would it be written?

Panzer · June 26, 2017

Keywords all are different. Keyword Chaos is also not the same as Keyword . Keyword Khorne is also not the same as Keyword . If you have to make a Keyword check you specifically check it for that Keyword. As before there is nothing stating models with the Keyword World Eaters must have Keyword Khorne aswell. If it would state that this would not be a dispute but it does not state that.

Nobody ever denied that tho?

Also are you actually serious about the World Eaters bit? Hell I even quoted the part in one of my earlier posts. Just check the page for World Eaters in the Index (page 44 and 45 for reference). It says right there under "FORCES OF THE WORLD EATERS" under "Servants of Khorne" that World Eater units who have the keyword MUST change it to Khorne. Period.

That excludes Sorcerers because they are forbidden from taking Khorne and lets vehicles, daemon engines and other units without the keyword still have the World Eater keyword if possible.

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

Keywords all are different. Keyword Chaos is also not the same as Keyword . Keyword Khorne is also not the same as Keyword . If you have to make a Keyword check you specifically check it for that Keyword. As before there is nothing stating models with the Keyword World Eaters must have Keyword Khorne aswell. If it would state that this would not be a dispute but it does not state that.

Nobody ever denied that tho?
Also are you actually serious about the World Eaters bit? Hell I even quoted the part in one of my earlier posts. Just check the page for World Eaters in the Index (page 44 and 45 for reference). It says right there under "FORCES OF THE WORLD EATERS" under "Servants of Khorne" that World Eater units who have the keyword MUST change it to Khorne. Period.

That excludes Sorcerers because they are forbidden from taking Khorne and lets vehicles, daemon engines and other units without the keyword still have the World Eater keyword if possible.

E.g. Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh and Rubric Marines Aspiring Champion both do not have Keyword but do have <Legion> and can legally change it to World Eaters, Word Bearers, Black Legion etc.

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