Tzaangors and Poxwalkers, Legion only?

Gordon Shumway · June 26, 2017

It is saying that if a unit has the ability to be marked, then it must be marked Khorne. Some units don't have the ability to be marked at all, that is fine and allowable to be a WE. Some units are already marked by GW as something other than Khorne, say Nurgle, in which case, it isn't allowed to be a WE because the rules state it must be Khorne, if it can be marked anything. It is pretty clearly written.

Plaguecaster · June 26, 2017

Umm Sfpanzer I'm pretty sure all vehicles and daemon engines apart from the god ones all both have the and <Legion> Keyword even spawn have them, well in my book they do Edited June 26, 2017 by Plaguecaster

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

It is saying that if a unit has the ability to be marked, then it must be marked Khorne. Some units don't have the ability to be marked at all, that is fine and allowable to be a WE. Some units are already marked by GW as something other than Khorne, say Nurgle, in which case, it isn't allowed to be a WE because the rules state it must be Khorne, if it can be marked anything. It is pretty clearly written.

The description on says not all have that Keyword but those who have it can change it.

Abaddon, Chyper, Khârn and many more do not have the Keyword or <Legion> Keyword.

E.g. Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch cannot have Thousand Sons Keyword but can have Black Legion, Iron Warriors or even World Eaters.

Panzer · June 26, 2017

Keywords all are different. Keyword Chaos is also not the same as Keyword . Keyword Khorne is also not the same as Keyword . If you have to make a Keyword check you specifically check it for that Keyword. As before there is nothing stating models with the Keyword World Eaters must have Keyword Khorne aswell. If it would state that this would not be a dispute but it does not state that.
Nobody ever denied that tho?
Also are you actually serious about the World Eaters bit? Hell I even quoted the part in one of my earlier posts. Just check the page for World Eaters in the Index (page 44 and 45 for reference). It says right there under "FORCES OF THE WORLD EATERS" under "Servants of Khorne" that World Eater units who have the keyword MUST change it to Khorne. Period.

That excludes Sorcerers because they are forbidden from taking Khorne and lets vehicles, daemon engines and other units without the keyword still have the World Eater keyword if possible.

E.g. Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh and Rubric Marines Aspiring Champion both do not have Keyword but do have <Legion> and can legally change it to World Eaters, Word Bearers, Black Legion etc.

Except that the rules for state that if a Heretic Astartes datasheet doesn't specify which Mark of Chaos a unit has, it will have the keyword, implying that Noise Marines etc. don't lack keyword just because they are lacking it like Fallen (which still can't join, because they can't be World Eaters obviously), but because they ALREADY specified their alignment so the rules for units without the keyword don't apply.

It's basically the same as if they'd given them the keyword and an additional special rule that specifies that they always have to exchange it with Slaanesh (in case of Noise Marines)....just that they already have done that step for you so there isn't some unnecessary special rule on the Datasheet and can read everything you need to know on one glance.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that there's a rules lawyer trying to exploit things just because GW for once tried to do something smart tho lol

Umm Sfpanzer I'm pretty sure all vehicles and daemon engines apart from the god ones all both have the and <Legion> Keyword even spawn have them, well in my book they do

Yeah they do now, it was just an example (a bad one I admit) based on old 7th ed knowledge. The point remains the same tho. Just exchange vehicle and daemon engine in my post with "unit X that is unable to get a Mark of Chaos".

EDIT: fixing my bad example of using vehicles again x)

Edited June 26, 2017 by sfPanzer

Gordon Shumway · June 26, 2017

It is saying that if a unit has the ability to be marked, then it must be marked Khorne. Some units don't have the ability to be marked at all, that is fine and allowable to be a WE. Some units are already marked by GW as something other than Khorne, say Nurgle, in which case, it isn't allowed to be a WE because the rules state it must be Khorne, if it can be marked anything. It is pretty clearly written.

The description on says not all have that Keyword but those who have it can change it.

Abaddon, Chyper, Khârn and many more do not have the Keyword or <Legion> Keyword.

E.g. Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch cannot have Thousand Sons Keyword but can have Black Legion, Iron Warriors or even World Eaters.

They can have the TS or BL keyword, correct, because those legions don't have rules that say the Of a unit, if it exists at all, has to be Khorne. World Eaters do have that stipulation.

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

Keywords all are different. Keyword Chaos is also not the same as Keyword . Keyword Khorne is also not the same as Keyword . If you have to make a Keyword check you specifically check it for that Keyword. As before there is nothing stating models with the Keyword World Eaters must have Keyword Khorne aswell. If it would state that this would not be a dispute but it does not state that.
Nobody ever denied that tho?
Also are you actually serious about the World Eaters bit? Hell I even quoted the part in one of my earlier posts. Just check the page for World Eaters in the Index (page 44 and 45 for reference). It says right there under "FORCES OF THE WORLD EATERS" under "Servants of Khorne" that World Eater units who have the keyword MUST change it to Khorne. Period.

That excludes Sorcerers because they are forbidden from taking Khorne and lets vehicles, daemon engines and other units without the keyword still have the World Eater keyword if possible.

E.g. Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh and Rubric Marines Aspiring Champion both do not have Keyword but do have <Legion> and can legally change it to World Eaters, Word Bearers, Black Legion etc.

Except that the rules for state that if a Heretic Astartes datasheet doesn't specify which Mark of Chaos a unit has, it will have the keyword, implying that Noise Marines etc. don't lack keyword just because they are lacking it like Fallen (which still can't join, because they can't be World Eaters obviously), but because they ALREADY specified their alignment so the rules for units without the keyword don't apply.

It's basically the same as if they'd given them the keyword and an additional special rule that specifies that they always have to exchange it with Slaanesh (in case of Noise Marines)....just that they already have done that step for you so there isn't some unnecessary special rule on the Datasheet and can read everything you need to know on one glance.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that there's a rules lawyer trying to exploit things just because GW for once tried to do something smart tho lol

The thing is that Keyword is not the same as Keyword Khorne or Chaos for example.

Likewise Keyword <Legion> is not the same as Keyword World Eaters, Black Legion, Space Wolves or other.

I will give you another example of how this works and why your example with Khorne counting as Keyword does not apply:

Lord Zhufor

The current datasheet of World Eaters Terminator Lord Zhufor currently does not have the Keyword <Legion>. He also does not have the Keyword World Eaters. He does have the Keyword Skulltakers however this Keyword is also not the same as Keyword World Eaters and the effect of this in game is that he does not do anything for models with the Keyword World Eaters.

Chaos Lord on Steed of Slaanesh

In that same example the Chaos Lord on Steed of Slaanesh does not have the Keyword , the result of this is that he has Keyword <Legion> and this can be legally changed to World Eaters.

The secondary check made for Keyword is not made because he does not have Keyword .

What you deem as illogical actually can have a very logical future consequence.

- Horus Heresy datasheets for example could in the future have Keyword <Legion> That Keyword might legally be changed to World Eaters. They might not have Keyword but under the current wording this would not make them illigal to have the World Eaters Keyword.

What we see as a trend within all Index is that there is no logical narrative design approach.

World Eaters Terminator Lord Zhufor does not have the Keyword World Eaters, cannot obtain bonusses granted to units with Keyword World Eaters and despite Skulltakers narratively speaking being World Eaters they do not count as Keyword World Eaters aswell.

This same approach applies to Keyword aswell. With the difference being that you have 5 choices to change (to Keyword Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh and nothing) while Keyword <Legion> is unrestricted. Under the current rules you are fully allowed to change <Legion> to Word Bearers, Black Legion, Red Corsairs or even Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Blood Angles. This could represent any Traitor army you feel like making.

Currently the fact that <Legion> is not limited to any name set does not make any name set the same Keyword as <Legion>.

Currently the fact that is limited to a name set does not make the same as Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle or nothing.

It is saying that if a unit has the ability to be marked, then it must be marked Khorne. Some units don't have the ability to be marked at all, that is fine and allowable to be a WE. Some units are already marked by GW as something other than Khorne, say Nurgle, in which case, it isn't allowed to be a WE because the rules state it must be Khorne, if it can be marked anything. It is pretty clearly written.

The description on says not all have that Keyword but those who have it can change it.

Abaddon, Chyper, Khârn and many more do not have the Keyword or <Legion> Keyword.

E.g. Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch cannot have Thousand Sons Keyword but can have Black Legion, Iron Warriors or even World Eaters.

They can have the TS or BL keyword, correct, because those legions don't have rules that say the Of a unit, if it exists at all, has to be Khorne. World Eaters do have that stipulation.

The only additional check World Eaters makes is that to units with the Keyword A keyword many other units with <Legion> do not have.

I'll happily wait for the Errata on this.

The moment Servants of Khorne would specifically state that Keyword Khorne is a requirement for all models with Keyword World Eaters this issue would not be there. However there is currently nothing that states such a thing. Likewise Keyword Tzeentch and Keyword Nurgle do not mean you can obtain Keyword Death Guard or Keyword Thousand Sons perse.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Commissar K.

Plaguecaster · June 26, 2017

That's because Zhurfor is not a World Eater . The FW Vraks book had him as a loyalist space marine (Storm Lords chapter) who was captured and tortured by the Skull Takers ( which themselves were once a loyalist chapter known as the Beserkers of Kharadon ) eventually turning to worship of Khorne. Apart from being Khorne worshippers both the Skulltakers and Zhurfor have nothing to do with the World Eaters at all which is why he doesn't have it

Panzer · June 26, 2017

Keywords all are different. Keyword Chaos is also not the same as Keyword . Keyword Khorne is also not the same as Keyword . If you have to make a Keyword check you specifically check it for that Keyword. As before there is nothing stating models with the Keyword World Eaters must have Keyword Khorne aswell. If it would state that this would not be a dispute but it does not state that.
Nobody ever denied that tho?
Also are you actually serious about the World Eaters bit? Hell I even quoted the part in one of my earlier posts. Just check the page for World Eaters in the Index (page 44 and 45 for reference). It says right there under "FORCES OF THE WORLD EATERS" under "Servants of Khorne" that World Eater units who have the keyword MUST change it to Khorne. Period.

That excludes Sorcerers because they are forbidden from taking Khorne and lets vehicles, daemon engines and other units without the keyword still have the World Eater keyword if possible.

E.g. Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh and Rubric Marines Aspiring Champion both do not have Keyword but do have <Legion> and can legally change it to World Eaters, Word Bearers, Black Legion etc.

Except that the rules for state that if a Heretic Astartes datasheet doesn't specify which Mark of Chaos a unit has, it will have the keyword, implying that Noise Marines etc. don't lack keyword just because they are lacking it like Fallen (which still can't join, because they can't be World Eaters obviously), but because they ALREADY specified their alignment so the rules for units without the keyword don't apply.

It's basically the same as if they'd given them the keyword and an additional special rule that specifies that they always have to exchange it with Slaanesh (in case of Noise Marines)....just that they already have done that step for you so there isn't some unnecessary special rule on the Datasheet and can read everything you need to know on one glance.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that there's a rules lawyer trying to exploit things just because GW for once tried to do something smart tho lol

The thing is that Keyword is not the same as Keyword Khorne or Chaos for example.

Likewise Keyword <Legion> is not the same as Keyword World Eaters, Black Legion, Space Wolves or other.

I will give you another example of how this works and why your example with Khorne counting as Keyword does not apply:

Lord Zhufor

The current datasheet of World Eaters Terminator Lord Zhufor currently does not have the Keyword <Legion>. He also does not have the Keyword World Eaters. He does have the Keyword Skulltakers however this Keyword is also not the same as Keyword World Eaters and the effect of this in game is that he does not do anything for models with the Keyword World Eaters.

Chaos Lord on Steed of Slaanesh

In that same example the Chaos Lord on Steed of Slaanesh does not have the Keyword , the result of this is that he has Keyword <Legion> and this can be legally changed to World Eaters.

The secondary check made for Keyword is not made because he does not have Keyword .

What you deem as illogical actually can have a very logical future consequence.

- Horus Heresy datasheets for example could in the future have Keyword <Legion> That Keyword might legally be changed to World Eaters. They might not have Keyword but under the current wording this would not make them illigal to have the World Eaters Keyword.

Yeah and that's where you are wrong. However since you don't seem to be willing to understand despite everyone telling you otherwise I don't see a point to continue this discussion with you.

As someone already said, just go ahead and try to tell people and tournament organisations that your Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Plague Marines or Characters on Steed of Slaanesh, Disk of Tzeentch or Palanquin of Nurgle have the World Eaters keyword, but please spare us with this crap. Nobody here is buying it. :biggrin.:

Edited June 26, 2017 by sfPanzer

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

That's because Zhurfor is not a World Eater . The FW Vraks book had him as a loyalist space marine (Storm Lords chapter) who was captured and tortured by the Skull Takers ( which themselves were once a loyalist chapter known as the Beserkers of Kharadon ) eventually turning to worship of Khorne. Apart from being Khorne worshippers both the Skulltakers and Zhurfor have nothing to do with the World Eaters at all which is why he doesn't have it

World Eaters Terminator Lord Zhufor: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Khorne-World-Eaters-Terminator-Lord-Zhufor

I guess they should change that product name to Not World Eaters Terminator Lord Zhufor?

Zhufor, also called Zhufor the Impaler and the Butcher of Vraks, is the Chaos Lord who lead the warband of World Eaters' Chaos Space Marines named the Skulltakers during the Siege of Vraks.

Huh?

Yeah and that's where you are wrong. However since you don't seem to be willing to understand despite everyone telling you otherwise I don't see a point to continue this discussion with you.

As someone already said, just go ahead and try to tell people and tournament organisations that your Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Plague Marines or Characters on Steed of Slaanesh, Disk of Tzeentch or Palanquin of Nurgle have the World Eaters keyword, but please spare us with this crap. Nobody here is buying it.

Im willing to understand that Keyword is not the same as Keyword Khorne. Do you understand it?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Commissar K.

Panzer · June 26, 2017

Yep, I give up.

You go ahead and play your own version of the game if you find people who agree to your ridiculous argumentation and the rest of the world goes and plays the official version and everybody is happy.

Just don't try to sell your version on forums, please. :D

Commissar K. · June 26, 2017

Yep, I give up.

You go ahead and play your own version of the game if you find people who agree to your ridiculous argumentation and the rest of the world goes and plays the official version and everybody is happy.

Just don't try to sell your version on forums, please.

Can I have Skulltakers count as Keyword World Eaters in your version of the game?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Commissar K.

Kol Saresk · June 26, 2017

The keyword Khorne that shows up in Khârn's datasheet is exactly the same as the keyword Khorne that you're supposed to use to replace the keyword . That's why Khârn is used as an example for how to replace the keyword using the four keywords Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, or Nurgle, or just to get rid of it entirely.

That's RAW and it is what you are not understanding.

Khârn has a keyword and that keyword is Khorne.

So to translate it and simplify it in a way you can understand, what it is saying is that a unit that trades its <Legion> keyword for a World Eaters keyword, must also trade its keyword for the Khorne keyword. The only units exempt from having to trade, are units that already have the Khorne keyword(for very obvious reasons) or units that do not have a keyword to trade.

And to clarify and expound, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch are keywords.

So, units that already have a chosen keyword(such as Nurgle, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch), or units that are restricted from taking the Khorne keyword cannot take the World Eaters keyword.

They can be in the same detachment as units that take the World Eaters keyword as long as you are using the Chaos, Daemon, or Heretic Astartes keywords to make your army, but they cannot take it themselves.

Same applies to the Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, and Death Guard.

That is the end of discussion. Period. That is how the rulebook interpets it. That is how the GW employees who run the Warhammer 40,000 webpage interpret it. That is more than 100% likely how the FAQ will interpret it since that is already how the rules and employees interpret it.

Sign In

Tzaangors and Poxwalkers, Legion only?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Recently Browsing 0 members

Important Information