Warp Talons in 8th

[GenerationTerrorist]

Hi guys. DA Ravenwing player here, but posting because I was terrified watching the next game, today, after our DA/Harlequin game finished.

The lad was running a list of a MoT Prince with Wings, an MoT Lord with Jump Pack and pair of Lightning Claws, and 3 units of 9 Warp Talons with MoT. It was against an Ultramarine army, and he decimated everything with the Talons.

I mean everything....Tacticals, Terminators, Calgar. The game was done by Turn 3 with every Ultramarine dead.

To be fair, he played a very similar list (with some Cultists as Troops) all the way through 7th, so he isn't a Cheese player.

 

How have you found Warp Talons to perform in 8th? I get the feeling that they are multiple times better than in 7th (No issues regarding Assault moves without Grenades), but could they become an auto-include in any Chaos list?

[ChazSexington]

Most of us think they look great on paper, even better to hear they improved the Ultramarines by murdering every last one of them;)

[Commissar K.]

If the SM player played mono Marines they are incredible. The moment several heavily armoured pieces are introduced they can become terrible.

To me this edition is largely devoid from spam because there are several hard counters available to anything. The moment something like the above happens you usually see how going mono-marines is not the choice most would go for.

However at the same time, would the non-Chaos player bring 2-3 Knights the Warp Talons would be scratching paint for days.

[Confused Word Bearer]

Well, I have two unopened boxes of Raptors, and I was debating on building them as Warp Talons since they seem a lot better now. This has definitely sealed the deal for me!

 

Too bad it's way too hot to paint anything. :(

[Custodian Athiair]

Brief question on this is how the Lightning Claws were used?

 

In the Chaos Index it seems to imply one additional attack per Lightning Claw, while everywhere else it's a one additional attack per pair. Just curious how many attacks the Warp Talons were dishing out

[Commissar K.]

Brief question on this is how the Lightning Claws were used?

 

In the Chaos Index it seems to imply one additional attack per Lightning Claw, while everywhere else it's a one additional attack per pair. Just curious how many attacks the Warp Talons were dishing out

Ah yes, another one of those oversights (also see FW Plasmaguns vs GW Plasmaguns).

 

I think the intention of GW here was to have the two Lightning Claws be represented into one profile. While that profile was made the s was left out of Lightning Claw on the page entry of the Warp Talons itself. Because later in the Index Chaos it is worded the same way as in the other Index.

 

So I think your better of using the Lighting Claws entry in the back of the book, as it is the most consistent with others.

 

Source: Page 124 Chaos Index: H A Melee Weapons and Page 36 Chaos Index: Warp Talons.

[Zodd1888]

I can't say for sure but to me it makes Warp Talons unique in their handling of the claws. I'd be down for them to work how it's currently set in the RAW as it's similar to the Daemon Prince claws on a smaller scale.

[the jeske]

How have you found Warp Talons to perform in 8th?

 

They rather bad in 8th. No shoting means that if they fail a charge they sit doing nothing. they are an overkill unit, too many attacks[for the point cost] when you run them in 7+size units and smaller units become too inefficient when they lose dudes. they and lists build around them struggle vs swarms of the melee sort [as in both cases they do not have a good target to charge]. they also suffer a lot from anti deep strike chaff, so you can't even use them as support unit hunters.

 

they can do ok, I guess if someone plays a bad list or does errors[ like leaves HQ at the back of a unit, or runs a "formation" where some units can't keep up]. Also because of how csm armies work they are very vunerable themself to deep strike units [and general counter chargers] as chaos doesn't have chaff units fast enough to keep up with them. You could play them like raptors starting on  the ground, but starting on the ground raptors are plain better[more utility, fewer counters, and their rules do not requirer raptors to be in reservs].

 

 

I get the feeling that they are multiple times better than in 7th (No issues regarding Assault moves without Grenades), but could they become an auto-include in any Chaos list?

 

No and no.

 

 

 

Well, I have two unopened boxes of Raptors, and I was debating on building them as Warp Talons since they seem a lot better now. This has definitely sealed the deal for me!

 

 

test before you do it. Or at least look through tournament lists that tried to use talons and ended up on high tables in larger tournaments.

Edited June 25, 2017 by the jeske

[Raven1]

test before you do it. Or at least look through tournament lists that tried to use talons and ended up on high tables in larger tournaments.

Not to ignore everything else you said but since 8th has been out less then a month, how many tournament lists can he really look at

 

On topic i would say Warp Talons on paper (haven't used them myself) look better. However they don't get access to icons and their special rule is only good on one turn and the assault isn't garunteed especially when deepstrike is >9" they need support from a psker for warptime to allow them to move to ensure a charge. So they are in mt mind a one trick pony that needs a support to even perform its trick.

 

Useless no, in the end its your models and money but I would certainly say there are more efficient units. The real CC standouts are of course Khorne Berzerkers.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Raven1

[Sception]

Oh, they're certainly better than they were.  The changes to AP make their lightning claws more threatening to more targets, the changes to deep strike mean you can deploy them that way, though you'll need a psyker for warp time or multiple units to have a real chance of charging.  The thing is, they were so bad before that there was room for them to be much, much better while still not being actually good.  I don't personally have a strong opinion on them one way or the other at the moment, mind, I'm just saying that I wouldn't count one game where they did spectacularly against a list comprised exclusively of units they're best at killing where they also got unreasonably lucky with charge rolls as an indication of their overall expected performance.

 

If you use them, be sure to take into account the targets they're not so good at dealing with - namely hordes and heavier monsters & vehicles - and be sure to have answers to those units elsewhere in your list.

[GenerationTerrorist]

Brief question on this is how the Lightning Claws were used?

 

In the Chaos Index it seems to imply one additional attack per Lightning Claw, while everywhere else it's a one additional attack per pair. Just curious how many attacks the Warp Talons were dishing out

 

Hi Chief. He ran it as +1A per model.

[ChazSexington]

 

I get the feeling that they are multiple times better than in 7th (No issues regarding Assault moves without Grenades), but could they become an auto-include in any Chaos list?

 

No and no.

 

 

Holy Hell, Jeske, Warp Talons are better than their 7th edition equivalents. I'm all for giving GW a hard time, but they are actually at least usable now (and I think they at least look good on paper). As opposed to their previous incarnation. 

 

The only way I see them not being multiple times better is if their useful was given a mathematical score of 0 in 7th. 

[Commissar K.]

I can't say for sure but to me it makes Warp Talons unique in their handling of the claws. I'd be down for them to work how it's currently set in the RAW as it's similar to the Daemon Prince claws on a smaller scale.

Well it could/would be cool. My only issue with that is that typically we look at the back of the book for all kinds of weaponry. I personally would as such rule it as the regular Lightning Claw set rule instead of having Warp Talons have their own special set of Lightning Claw.

 

Now if it was called Lightning Talon or along that lines I'd agree with you that the intend might have been to have it work out in a special way. The thing however is is that to me it seems their profile for Lightning Claw should actually be have named Lightning Claws as they always come with that pair and have no alternative option.

 

In the same way I am ruling Plasmaguns like GW has written and not as FW has written.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I think daemon CSM need to be buff by daemonic HQ and/or spell. Eitherwise they don't stand out themself from they nondemonic counter part.

 

So warp talon alone aren't better than raptor, but Warp talon with Herald (+1S and daemonic spell as hysterical frenzy) ?

 

Worst part about talon is they need to be buff by a sorcerer (a warp time to get as close as possible of as many units as they can and get an auto-charge at multiples units without overwatch) and by a daemonic psyker, and arrive from reserve. This can be difficult to set up, maybe a Dreadclaw with Sorcerer, herald, some juicy close combat unit coming from reserve the same turn the warp talon arrive ?

[Khornestar]

Dreadclaw + Sorc + choppy unit + warp time sounds very fun. Hmm, even 19 Cultists and a Sorc in a Kharybdis sounds fun. Hadn't thought of using filthy witches with my WE, but WB on the other hand... Warp Talons don't even need the pod. Awesome stuff.

[Commissar K.]

I think daemon CSM need to be buff by daemonic HQ and/or spell. Eitherwise they don't stand out themself from they nondemonic counter part.

 

So warp talon alone aren't better than raptor, but Warp talon with Herald (+1S and daemonic spell as hysterical frenzy) ?

 

Worst part about talon is they need to be buff by a sorcerer (a warp time to get as close as possible of as many units as they can and get an auto-charge at multiples units without overwatch) and by a daemonic psyker, and arrive from reserve. This can be difficult to set up, maybe a Dreadclaw with Sorcerer, herald, some juicy close combat unit coming from reserve the same turn the warp talon arrive ?

I completely agree with you. It's a bit sad but I've even come to the conclusion that most Daemonic Troops arn't worth the effort either way as very few actually out-preform Thyphus + Poxwalkers. While Poxwalkers are cheaper, have those 2 attacks and with Thypus go to S/T 4/4 stats AND are always immume to Morale AND have a "better" 5++.

 

To me Warp Talons certainly need the Warptime buff, as a result one could even consider a Sorcerer in Terminator armour with weapon X to ensure this all from happening. It's something I too am considering as Psychic Powers are in all cases extremely relevant to the upcomming game.

 

So yeah like Juggernut said, you don't even need the Dreadclaw perse. A unit of Warp Talons with a Sorcerer in Terminator Armour is good to go. 

[Panzer]

 

 

I get the feeling that they are multiple times better than in 7th (No issues regarding Assault moves without Grenades), but could they become an auto-include in any Chaos list?

 

No and no.

 

 

Holy Hell, Jeske, Warp Talons are better than their 7th edition equivalents. I'm all for giving GW a hard time, but they are actually at least usable now (and I think they at least look good on paper). As opposed to their previous incarnation. 

 

The only way I see them not being multiple times better is if their useful was given a mathematical score of 0 in 7th. 

 

Don't worry, for Jeske there are always only just a handful of units that are useable in the whole game and everything else is trash. I wouldn't take his comments too seriously. :D

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Dreadclaw is for coming with a herald of your favorite dark god, so you can double buff (sorcerer + herald) your warp talon as soon as they arrive.

The cheaper alternative is : Warp talon + Sorcerer with jetpack arrive, sorcerer buff warp talon with warptime, warp talon charge multiples units.

Next turn : sorcerer summon herald, and herald buff with aura + spell the talons.

The problem is : you need to wait 1 turn with sorcerer in the open to get the herald (with the dreadclaw no problem).

Alternately you need a really fast herald (on steed ?) so he can be at range of your talon when they arrive.

[The Traitor]

I think Warp Talons are cool, but suffer from not having icons. However, with how assault works now, taking a big unit with a sorcerer to engage as many enemy units as possible could be brutal! 

I do prefer Raptors though, take them in formations of 2x5 raptors with 2 plasma guns each and both champions with 2 plasma pistols and a Chaos Lord with another 2 plasma pistols to reroll the otherwise unbearable 1s... That's cheaper than 10 warp talons with a sorcerer and can make 14 plasma shots within 12"... 

[the jeske]

 

test before you do it. Or at least look through tournament lists that tried to use talons and ended up on high tables in larger tournaments.

Not to ignore everything else you said but since 8th has been out less then a month, how many tournament lists can he really look at

 

 

I was trying to be as civil as possible while saying do not do it. And as one persons on the interweb may not be enough to convince and the models are still yet unassambled it is a good thing to wait till you do get that data.

 

 

Oh, they're certainly better than they were.

 

Holy Hell, Jeske, Warp Talons are better than their 7th edition equivalents. I'm all for giving GW a hard time, but they are actually at least usable now (and I think they at least look good on paper). As opposed to their previous incarnation.

That is true, but it would be really hard to make them worse [aside for bumping up point cost]. Becoming better does not make a unit good. Ton of stuff became better in 8th, but it doesn't matter it is a good idea to use it. My advice is for people to read some BA stuff, even on this forum is going to be enough. Gives a lot of insight in to deep strike assaulters viability even without any test games.

 

 

Don't worry, for Jeske there are always only just a handful of units that are useable in the whole game and everything else is trash. I wouldn't take his comments too seriously.

 

 

 

you should read orc and tyranid forums more offten then, buckets of good stuff. But even chaos marines got more viable units in 8th[raptors, preds, havocks, even zerkers and 1ksons are servicable]. Talons are not good. they work the same way syren worked in 5th ed [one time vs one player that didn't know they exist]. And they are bad vs the best and most common type armies in 8th AND they struggle vs anti deep strike tech used in good armies AND they require buff units because they on avarge do not reach their targets after deep striking AND they have 0 use outside of the deep strike charge[unlike raptors]. So no it is not me not liking chaos stuff in general [aint true in 8th], but talons being bad.

 

Dreadclaw is for coming with a herald of your favorite dark god, so you can double buff (sorcerer + herald) your warp talon as soon as they arrive

 

.how do you put a herald inside a dreadclaw? was there a transport errata/faq ?

[Sception]

The dreadclaw can transport either <legion> units or <mark of chaos> units.  Per the mark of chaos rules, when you pick a god the <mark of chaos> keyword is replaced with the god's name.  So if you pick nurgle, the keyword isn't replaced with "mark of nurgle", but rather just "nurgle".

 

So a khorne-marked dreadclaw can transport khorne daemons, or a slaanesh-marked dreadclaw slaanesh daemons, etc.  Same with the kharybdis, but NOT the spartan, achilles, etc.

[ChazSexington]

 

Holy Hell, Jeske, Warp Talons are better than their 7th edition equivalents. I'm all for giving GW a hard time, but they are actually at least usable now (and I think they at least look good on paper). As opposed to their previous incarnation.

That is true, but it would be really hard to make them worse [aside for bumping up point cost]. Becoming better does not make a unit good. Ton of stuff became better in 8th, but it doesn't matter it is a good idea to use it. My advice is for people to read some BA stuff, even on this forum is going to be enough. Gives a lot of insight in to deep strike assaulters viability even without any test games.

 

 

But that was the question: Are they [multiple times] better than in 7th. 

 

And yes, yes, they are. Not just "No."

[Commissar K.]

 

So a khorne-marked dreadclaw can transport khorne daemons, or a slaanesh-marked dreadclaw slaanesh daemons, etc.  Same with the kharybdis, but NOT the spartan, achilles, etc.

Very interesting! I would have thought they'd link it all to <Legion> like the regular Transports. That really opens options!

[DreamIsCollapsing]

 

 

So a khorne-marked dreadclaw can transport khorne daemons, or a slaanesh-marked dreadclaw slaanesh daemons, etc.  Same with the kharybdis, but NOT the spartan, achilles, etc.

Very interesting! I would have thought they'd link it all to <Legion> like the regular Transports. That really opens options!

 

 

Agree, but the datasheet is very specific : "Heretic Astartas" OR "Mark of Chaos infantry"

[Sception]

This allows them to transport daemons, but frustratingly it does not allow them to transport renegades & heretics units.  Those don't have marks, or any other means of getting the alignment keywords.  If you make the R&H basic hero your warlord you get 'covenant' abilities/keywords, but those are specifically 'Covenant of [God Name]', and not [God Name].  Otherwise, a dreadclaw packed full of malefic lords might be an interesting supreme command detachment.  As it is...