The Blood Chalice & The Red Grail

[Aothaine]

Hey Everyone!

 

Just curious what you thought about this rule.

 

The Red Grail on Brother Corbulo states that friendly BA infantry and biker units increase their S by 1 while they are within 6" of any Sanguinary Priests. 

 

The Blood Chalice states that Friendly BA infantry and Biker units increase their S by 1 while they are within 6" of any Sanguinary Priests.

 

Now.. logic tells me this was not meant to stack. But the buffs are coming from two separate rules. The Red Grail & The Blood Chalice. So, Do these stack? 

[Indefragable]

It's all in ze Keywords. Both Corbulo and Sanguinary Priests (duh) have the Keyword "Sanguinary Priest." Therefore, The Red Grail is literally a Blood Chalice+.

[Aothaine]

My confusion comes from the buff names. One buff is from The Red Grail and the other is from The Blood Chalice.

 

The Red Grail gives +1S when near SPriests.

The Blood Chalice gives +1S when near SPriests. 

 

That doesn't necessarily mean they are the same buff and it doesn't specify that they are the same.

[Charlo]

Ha, good point.

 

I think GW are trying to stop it from stacking by putting "ANY sanguinary priest" in the rule, but because the rules are named differently if a unit it's within 6 of both a normal priest and corbs then they'd get the double bonus 2S?

 

OR because being within 6 of ANY priest is fulfilled by being within 6 of corbs or another one, you wouldn't then check the other as you are already within 6 of ANY priest....

[Panzer]

It's all in ze Keywords. Both Corbulo and Sanguinary Priests (duh) have the Keyword "Sanguinary Priest." Therefore, The Red Grail is literally a Blood Chalice+.

Yeah but to explain further: it's because the special rule says "any priest". ;)

Edited June 25, 2017 by sfPanzer

[Xenith]

 

It's all in ze Keywords. Both Corbulo and Sanguinary Priests (duh) have the Keyword "Sanguinary Priest." Therefore, The Red Grail is literally a Blood Chalice+.

Yeah but to explain further: it's because the special rule says "any priest".

 

 

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the special rules are different. 

 

Blood Chalice: any models within 6" of any priests gets +1 strength

Red Grail: any models within 6" of any priests gets +1 strength.

 

Ergo, any models within 6" of a priest gain +1S from the Blood Chalice ability, and also +1 S from the red grail ability. If the red grail is on the field, it boosts the effects of all other priests on the table, which is neat and fluffy. S5 -> S6 also has virtually no impact on the game, other than when punching guardsmen.

 

This is in the same way that Primaris and Chapter Ancient banners overlap. A BLOOD ANGELS model with the Astartes Banner special rule lets any models within 6" of a BLOOD ANGELS ANCIENT (including terminator and sanguinary guard ancients) make an attack if they die.

 

You'll see that the Chapter ancients rules specifically carry over to other ancients, while the terminator ancient and Sanguinary ancient are worded so they specifically do not carry over to other ancients in the army.

 

There has to be an upside for bringing so many banners and priests instead of combat characters.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Xenith

[Aothaine]

I was just happy I was able to get my point across. The gamer in me says it is two different buffs and therefore should stack. But if it did is it a strange way to let that through. If it was intentional to either grant the +2S or deny the +2S you would think that they would have added a little snippet that it does not stack with each other. I'll post the question on the FB page now that I think I have discovered it can be viewed two different ways.

 

*UPDATE*

 

Got a response from Warhammer 40,000 facebook stating they would pass the question to GW HQ to input it into an FAQ. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aothaine

[Xenith]

As an aside, both adeptus standard and archangels standard are different rules that add +1Ld to units within 6.

 

The adeptus standard specifically carries over to other CHAPTER ANCIENTS in the army, while the archangel does not.

 

So if you have both, a model within 6" of the company ancient gets +1Ld and the extra attack on death, a model within 6" of just the archangel gets the rerolls and +2Ld due to the presence of the company ancient also.

 

It's cool that the more banners you have, the more unbreakable you are. 

[Charlo]

As an aside, both adeptus standard and archangels standard are different rules that add +1Ld to units within 6.

 

The adeptus standard specifically carries over to other CHAPTER ANCIENTS in the army, while the archangel does not.

 

So if you have both, a model within 6" of the company ancient gets +1Ld and the extra attack on death, a model within 6" of just the archangel gets the rerolls and +2Ld due to the presence of the company ancient also.

 

It's cool that the more banners you have, the more unbreakable you are. 

 

This is the kind of rule I could get behind.

[Indefragable]

As an aside, both adeptus standard and archangels standard are different rules that add +1Ld to units within 6.

 

The adeptus standard specifically carries over to other CHAPTER ANCIENTS in the army, while the archangel does not.

 

So if you have both, a model within 6" of the company ancient gets +1Ld and the extra attack on death, a model within 6" of just the archangel gets the rerolls and +2Ld due to the presence of the company ancient also.

 

It's cool that the more banners you have, the more unbreakable you are. 

 

Great catch.

 

However, is it just me, or does the Sanguinary Ancient simply top all? Who cares if you get +1, +2, +11 Ld if you can just not have to take Morale tests at all? Or am I missing something.

 

Also, I keep seeing people say that Sanguinary Ancient is "one per army," but I can not find that wording anywhere. Compare to Deathwing Ancient that says right in the unit description "only one of this model may be included in your army."

[Charlo]

 

Also, I keep seeing people say that Sanguinary Ancient is "one per army," but I can not find that wording anywhere. Compare to Deathwing Ancient that says right in the unit description "only one of this model may be included in your army."

 

Book in front of me, no such rule for limiting him to 1 per army.

 

Spam spam spam.

[Spagunk]

Any method for getting more banners in your army, the better in my opinion.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Spagunk

[Xenith]

 

As an aside, both adeptus standard and archangels standard are different rules that add +1Ld to units within 6.

 

The adeptus standard specifically carries over to other CHAPTER ANCIENTS in the army, while the archangel does not.

 

So if you have both, a model within 6" of the company ancient gets +1Ld and the extra attack on death, a model within 6" of just the archangel gets the rerolls and +2Ld due to the presence of the company ancient also.

 

It's cool that the more banners you have, the more unbreakable you are. 

 

Great catch.

 

However, is it just me, or does the Sanguinary Ancient simply top all? Who cares if you get +1, +2, +11 Ld if you can just not have to take Morale tests at all? Or am I missing something.

 

Also, I keep seeing people say that Sanguinary Ancient is "one per army," but I can not find that wording anywhere. Compare to Deathwing Ancient that says right in the unit description "only one of this model may be included in your army."

 

 

One per army is a hangover rule that people half remember from 5th ed rules for chapter banners. It shows you how long it's been since they seen a BA army on the table.

 

The Sang ancient allows you to reroll 1's to wound and ignore LD, the archangel allows you to reroll all fighty misses, with +1 Ld. Much better I think!

 

Naturally, the Sang Ancient shines when there's a warlord nearby, but the Archangel ancient is neat on his own.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Xenith

[Indefragable]

 

 

As an aside, both adeptus standard and archangels standard are different rules that add +1Ld to units within 6.

 

The adeptus standard specifically carries over to other CHAPTER ANCIENTS in the army, while the archangel does not.

 

So if you have both, a model within 6" of the company ancient gets +1Ld and the extra attack on death, a model within 6" of just the archangel gets the rerolls and +2Ld due to the presence of the company ancient also.

 

It's cool that the more banners you have, the more unbreakable you are. 

 

Great catch.

 

However, is it just me, or does the Sanguinary Ancient simply top all? Who cares if you get +1, +2, +11 Ld if you can just not have to take Morale tests at all? Or am I missing something.

 

Also, I keep seeing people say that Sanguinary Ancient is "one per army," but I can not find that wording anywhere. Compare to Deathwing Ancient that says right in the unit description "only one of this model may be included in your army."

 

 

One per army is a hangover rule that people half remember from 5th ed rules for chapter banners. It shows you how long it's been since they seen a BA army on the table.

 

The Sang ancient allows you to reroll 1's to wound and ignore LD, the archangel allows you to reroll all fighty misses, with +1 Ld. Much better I think!

 

Naturally, the Sang Ancient shines when there's a warlord nearby, but the Archangel ancient is neat on his own.

 

 

Sang Ancient has mobility built in (12"), ignores morale, and gives a unique bonus no one else in the army (yet?) can provide.

Chances are you are already bringing a Captain, Dante, or Chaplain of some sort to provide re-rolls To Hit. So for me, hands-down, the Sang Ancient provides the most utility and greatest synergy.

 

Not arguing: I love that you see things differently since it's these kinds of conversations help our Faction out in the big picture :)

[Xenith]

 

 

 

Sang Ancient has mobility built in (12"), ignores morale, and gives a unique bonus no one else in the army (yet?) can provide.

Chances are you are already bringing a Captain, Dante, or Chaplain of some sort to provide re-rolls To Hit. So for me, hands-down, the Sang Ancient provides the most utility and greatest synergy.

 

Not arguing: I love that you see things differently since it's these kinds of conversations help our Faction out in the big picture

 

Agree, I think we are saying the same thing really - I don't think you can go wrong with either.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Xenith