Heavy Support: What's good? whats bad?

[Commissar K.]

 

 

I think that defliers, as land raiders, are viable options IF you have the points, they do hit like trucks. However I would go with havocs and predators unless doing daemon allies, in which case daemon engines are the way to go. The Changeling provides some durability, and I'm itching to try a list of nurgle daemon princes, nurgle forgefiends and epidemius!

which part of the defiler hits like a truck ?

 

I have been having a great time with battle cannons and flamers in general. Then again I always used to scatter big with cannons, and flamers my opponents would space so I could never get more than 2 or 3. Now I am wiping whole units of scat bikes off the table.

 

In my opinion they are amazing. Defilers are certainly allright aswell.

I guess some have missed it but thaking a Defiler Sourge is certainly an option to keep the Defiler cheaper. Much akin to the cost of the Soulreaper.

 

Certainly, double Heavy Flamer is also a great option but there are scenario's where the Sourge becomes a better choice as what can kill the Defiler usually doesn't die to Flamers.

 

All in all I like most of our Heavy Support. What I do agree with is that Daemonic Engines ideally have a baby-sitter that at least lets them re-roll 1's to hit. This way the medium hit rolls of 4+'s become a little bit more effective.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Commissar K.

[the jeske]

 

I have been having a great time with battle cannons and flamers in general. Then again I always used to scatter big with cannons, and flamers my opponents would space so I could never get more than 2 or 3. Now I am wiping whole units of scat bikes off the table.

 

 

 

Ok, but flamers have a small range, so most of the game they are not used. they can do nice overwatch, but stuff that is going to charge a defiler is not going to be stoped by a flamer. The battlecannon to be efficient would have to face an army made out of multi wound models in msu/small sized units. VS orcs or tyranids the battlecannon is less efficient then it was before [no multi unit template overlap, because there is no template, and the squads are bigger and run in larger numbers].

 

The S16 AP-3 Dd3 claws?

 

 

why not run a mauler fined then it is better in melee. smaller model too. Point cost vs efficiency is also in the fiends favor.

[Plaguecaster]

Seriously Jeske Defilers are no where as bad as what they were in the last edition have you even tried playing one this edition as they preform quite well especially if your stupid enough to run full Death Guard :D (so I can't have the other daemon engines) . Besides a defiler now finally what it should be as the generalist daemon engine as it can now do both the roles of the two fiends daemon engines as one model. Yes you can take a maulerfiend but it has no shooting capabilities so it can't put pressure on enemy units as it moves forward likewise you could take a forgefiend for the shooting capabilities but they suffer greatly when bogged down in combat. A defiler Is completely point efficient since it does both roles quite well Edited June 27, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[the jeske]

Then don't call your army DG. You can play the same army at a minimal CP downgrade [1-2 points in most cases], and have all the stuff better stuff. And being better, I feel like am repeating myself, does not equal becoming good.

The defiler is still bad,

A because the meta shifted [so you have fewer minimax squads, blasts can't get lucky to blow up stuff, and defilers can no longer avoid small weapon fire, ther are more swarms run, it is still hard to get any form of cover for it etc]

B there are more point efficient options both FW and not, that do melee or shoting [or both].

 

Plus to counter the it does choppy and shoty at the same time argument. Yes it does have melee weapons and a battle cannon. It also gets boged down in melee vs swarms just as well as a mauler fiend. And it shoty weapons are so bad [specially if it moves] that it may as well not have them at all. thing is, you are paying points for the weapons.

[Commissar K.]

Jeske I really hope you will test Flamers with models with the Fly keword and see how they affect a game when used well.

 

I see a heavily Imperium influenced awnser patron from you and thats another sub-forum :)

 

Yes Chaos differs that much.

[Plaguecaster]

Then don't call your army DG. You can play the same army at a minimal CP downgrade [1-2 points in most cases], and have all the stuff better stuff. And being better, I feel like am repeating myself, does not equal becoming good.

The defiler is still bad,

A because the meta shifted [so you have fewer minimax squads, blasts can't get lucky to blow up stuff, and defilers can no longer avoid small weapon fire, ther are more swarms run, it is still hard to get any form of cover for it etc]

B there are more point efficient options both FW and not, that do melee or shoting [or both].

 

Plus to counter the it does choppy and shoty at the same time argument. Yes it does have melee weapons and a battle cannon. It also gets boged down in melee vs swarms just as well as a mauler fiend. And it shoty weapons are so bad [specially if it moves] that it may as well not have them at all. thing is, you are paying points for the weapons.

Cant avoid small arms fire ???? Please don't tell me you are one of those people who believe lasguns and the like can bring down everything :D you do know how hard it is for "small arms fire" to actually wound something like a defiler Edited June 27, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Excessus]

Jeske, I think you're confusing the meta for your meta again...and after just a week it's a bit too soon imho to claim that any sort of meta has formed properly. In the games I've managed to get in so far flamers have been quite nasty. Besides, flamers actually have a longer range than they used to have, technically.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Excessus
Horrible spelling

[sebs_evo7]

So these new keywords give iron warriors the ability to take R&H heavy artillery. I'm going to have to model up some earthshakers with iron warrior crew and human slaves as counts as

At least that's cool

[Vorenus]

I played in my first tournament in 8th edition two Saturdays ago. I had two Land Raiders and a Maulerfiend for my Heavy Support choices (using the Spearhead Detachment). All 3 models did really well. The Land Raiders dealt out a ton of damage and the Maulerfiend was excellent for putting pressure on the opponent's gun line.

[Commissar K.]

I played in my first tournament in 8th edition two Saturdays ago. I had two Land Raiders and a Maulerfiend for my Heavy Support choices (using the Spearhead Detachment). All 3 models did really well. The Land Raiders dealt out a ton of damage and the Maulerfiend was excellent for putting pressure on the opponent's gun line.

How did you kit the Maulerfiend? I want to like it but it seems so slow :(

 

Perhaps a cheap bare bones variant is what you took?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

It also gets boged down in melee vs swarms just as well as a mauler fiend.

 

Errr, you do realize that there's no such thing as being "bogged down" in combat any more, right?  If a horde charges the Defiler, just Fall Back on your turn and open up with the rest of the army's anti-horde guns like flamers and heavy bolters or counter-charge them with Berzerkers.  Sure, you lose the Defiler's guns for a turn, but you've solved the problem of it never shooting for the rest of the game because it's engaged with a never-end horde of chaff. 

[WarriorFish]

Autocannon and/or Heavy Bolter Havocs are my plan to start with I wonder if giving the "spares" chainswords might be an idea to try and make them less inviting to enemy units dropping in for a quick charge?

 

What are people's thoughts on Predators? I've heard good things, but after so long it's still hard to imagine them being good

Edited June 27, 2017 by WarriorFish

[Castigator]

Played another practice game last night, my opponent used 3 squads of Havocs (1 Lascannon squad, 1 Autocannon squad & 1 Missile launcher squad) and I used 2 Lascannon Preds and a Maulerfiend.

The Havocs were much more survivable thanks to their ability to claim cover from area terrain while the Preds couldn't.

The Havocs dominated any firefights and really helped my opponent dictate the pace of the game. The Predators simply weren't worth their points in this game and we both thought that, point for point, the Preds were inferior to the Havocs.

Predators and Maulerfiends have been very underwhelming in my games (not helped by my dreadful dice rolling, 1 wound caused all game even though they survived 4 turns!), and while it's early days, I can't help thinking that Havocs are the choicest pick from the Heavy Support section.

[the jeske]

Cant avoid small arms fire ???? Please don't tell me you are one of those people who believe lasguns and the like can bring down everything you do know how hard it is for "small arms fire" to actually wound something like a defiler

 

 

yes I know, but the fact is when you play and your defiler is on low wounds, before str 4 weapons weren't doing anything to it and now they do. That goes for both melee and shoting.

 

 

If a horde charges the Defiler, just Fall Back on your turn and open up with the rest of the army's anti-horde guns like flamers and heavy bolters or counter-charge them with Berzerkers.

 

Have you actualy tried doing this ? Because if the zerkers are hoofing it, they won't keep up with the defiler. If you try to move them as one, your runing a slower melee army, giving more chances for your opponent to blow up the defiler. If your runing zerkers in rhinos your not  going to have points to run defilers. But lets say this actualy does happen. your defiler charges or gets charged, and bounces off doing nothing next turn. your zerker swoop in [or your shoting eliminates the tar pit]. Great. you have just killed a chaff unit which end goal was to die. While using a lot of points. Seems the definition of bad to me.

 

 

Jeske, I think you're confusing the meta for your meta again...and after just a week it's a bit too soon imho to claim that any sort of meta has formed properly. In the games I've managed to get in so far flamers have been quite nasty. Besides, flamers actually have a longer range than they used to have, technically.

 

 

there is only one meta. And people have been doing testing for more then a month, and I am trying to help people here. If someone owns a defiler, and wants it to use it , it is fair game. If someone thinks it is better then it was in 7th, we can argue about it[in a void or in a csm mirror it probably is. vs 8th ed armies the difference is imo inconsequential]. But I do not want new people to see threads like this and someone going, hmm, lets buy a defiler as my first/second vehicle.

 

If someone want to talk about the use of flamers and how random number of shots is works vs the number of models that are run in horde armies, am happy to do it. Flamers[ just like lascannons for anti tank] are too swingy in many occasions . It is nice too look at the top end of the damage spectrum and think 6 wounds is great, but what if your flamer[or lascannon] does 1, and your 9" away from 60-90 guants/orcs/IG dudes ?

 

 

Jeske I really hope you will test Flamers with models with the Fly keword and see how they affect a game when used well.

 

It takes 15 combi weapons to take down most flyers. Although I personaly think that the auto hit on flyers is a meme thing[not that it isn't stupid].

[Commissar K.]

I really do not see any advantage in compairing system A to 1, compairing bikes to cars or comparing 7th to 8th. This game is completely redesigned.

- Where S4 has the technical option to do something against T8 Vechicles have gone from a functional 3 Hull Points to 10+ Wounds AND do not suffer any damaged weapons in the process. All that is potentially altered is the BS hit roll.
- Where AP5 previously mend you had no armour save at all at 5+/6+ not all AP5 changed into AP-1.
- Where Deepstriking was randomized, we now see it being on target the moment you want it.

Jeske I can only say again that theoryhammer will only get you so far. Because stuff like this is just nonsence:

 

 

 

If your runing zerkers in rhinos your not  going to have points to run defilers. 

there is only one meta. And people have been doing testing for more then a month.

It takes 15 combi weapons to take down most flyers.

I think your input and time is better spend playing the actual game and testing actual pieces.


 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Rob_Everyone]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but was toying with picking up a Khorne Blood Slaughterer for my World Eaters army. Anyone had an experience fielding one of these in 8th? How do they fair? 

[Brother Aiwass]

I don't know how you're getting flamers are good anti-horde. Statistically you would kill ~7 conscripts with 5 flamers

[TrexPushups]

I don't know how you're getting flamers are good anti-horde. Statistically you would kill ~7 conscripts with 5 flamers

4 heavy bolters by the same standard kill 3.5. So the flamers are twice as good.

[Zodd1888]

Flamers are good because of Auto-Hit, not because of amount of shots or their powers. You're reducing the amount of rolls required and therefore increasing amount of wounds inflicted. They're situational but if you work yourself into them they'll pay for themselves.

[Commissar K.]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but was toying with picking up a Khorne Blood Slaughterer for my World Eaters army. Anyone had an experience fielding one of these in 8th? How do they fair?

Go for it. Just keep in mind that Khorne usually doesnt need more melee heavies. A Zerk Champ with Fist gets a lot done.

[Brother Aiwass]

Indeed.

 

5 flamers do 17,5 auto hits, 11,667 wounds, 77777778 dead conscripts.

 

Indeed average rolls, YMMV. And being better than HB, depends on the range, unit and use ofc ^_^

[intel31337]

Any thoughts on vindicators?

[Dallas Drake]

Our output of shots/hits is the issue.

 

A Maulerfiend only has 4 attacks, it's not enough. Half the time it gets into combat it's damaged so only has 3, but even 4 is not enough. It needs 6-7 attacks or some rule that lets it attack twice if it charges. The same goes for Heavy Bolters, 3 shots is not enough. I've used both these units several times now and they're just plain below average.

 

My next game I'm taking 2 x Hellforged Scorpius, 4 x dual Soulburner Decimators, and about 100 Cultists. I have a Knight in and out the list, will probably find a way to squeeze him in too, for a Thermal Cannon & Gatling Cannon.

 

The regular IG player I play is taking 3x50 man blobs of Conscripts with Commisars and a bunch of Wyverns and Maticores - nasty. The Nid player I play against regularly is taking Stealers, Broodlords, Swarmlord, Hormagaunts with Trygons. He even used Hive Guard the other day and they were putting Mortal Wounds on my Heldrakes like nobodies business. Seems like Nids have good options all over, I don't begrudge them that as they've been in the cold for years.

 

TL:DR - If we can't kill 30-50 grunts a turn or can't put circa 20 wounds onto T7/T8 we will get beat. I've only won one game of 8th edition with Chaos, everytime I've been beat is because I couldn't do enough damage to my enemy. Sadly, Maulerfiends, Autocannon/H.Bolter Havocs, Forgefiends don't cut it. Neither do Mutilators, Possessed (irrespective of Daemon shenanigans), Oblits, CSMs and all the other rubbish. I've not used Berzerkers but they look good, I can't be bothered paying and painting up 30-50 of them though so whatever...

Edited June 27, 2017 by Dallas Drake

[Brother Aiwass]

Hellforged rapiers or butcher deredeos may help you.

[TrexPushups]

Our output of shots/hits is the issue.

 

A Maulerfiend only has 4 attacks, it's not enough. Half the time it gets into combat it's damaged so only has 3, but even 4 is not enough. It needs 6-7 attacks or some rule that lets it attack twice if it charges. The same goes for Heavy Bolters, 3 shots is not enough. I've used both these units several times now and they're just plain below average.

 

My next game I'm taking 2 x Hellforged Scorpius, 4 x dual Soulburner Decimators, and about 100 Cultists. I have a Knight in and out the list, will probably find a way to squeeze him in too, for a Thermal Cannon & Gatling Cannon.

 

The regular IG player I play is taking 3x50 man blobs of Conscripts with Commisars and a bunch of Wyverns and Maticores - nasty. The Nid player I play against regularly is taking Stealers, Broodlords, Swarmlord, Hormagaunts with Trygons. He even used Hive Guard the other day and they were putting Mortal Wounds on my Heldrakes like nobodies business. Seems like Nids have good options all over, I don't begrudge them that as they've been in the cold for years.

 

TL:DR - If we can't kill 30-50 grunts a turn or can't put circa 20 wounds onto T7/T8 we will get beat. I've only won one game of 8th edition with Chaos, everytime I've been beat is because I couldn't do enough damage to my enemy. Sadly, Maulerfiends, Autocannon/H.Bolter Havocs, Forgefiends don't cut it. Neither do Mutilators, Possessed (irrespective of Daemon shenanigans), Oblits, CSMs and all the other rubbish. I've not used Berzerkers but they look good, I can't be bothered paying and painting up 30-50 of them though so whatever...

Lashed tendrils get you another d6 attacks and lower the cost of the robot. Sure they might be lower quality attacks but every attack counts.