Heavy Support: What's good? whats bad?

[Rob_Everyone]

 

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but was toying with picking up a Khorne Blood Slaughterer for my World Eaters army. Anyone had an experience fielding one of these in 8th? How do they fair?

Go for it. Just keep in mind that Khorne usually doesnt need more melee heavies. A Zerk Champ with Fist gets a lot done.

 

 

An excellent point well made, thank you. Might just have made my decision on whether to get a Slaughterer or Decimator a little easier...

[Seahawk]

Predators are good tank hunters IMO. The autocannon is ridiculously good, able to one-shot most vehicles if you're lucky.

[Dallas Drake]

The Predator autocannon is a great weapon, I also don't mind the lascannon sponsons although I'm totally with Jeske that D6 damage is a huge swing for damage, I obviously prefer it to D3 but 3+D3 or even 2+D3 would be better on some weapons. I have rolled a lot of 1s lately.

 

An extra D6 S6 attacks from Lashers isn't worth it; again, not great. Maulerfiends should be going up against T6+ models, so say 3 attacks, hits on 4+ then wounds on 4+ not great at all.

 

Please don't see my posts as negative, even if they come across like that, I'm enjoying 8th edition... but man am I getting my ass kicked.

[Zodd1888]

Vindicators are an odd role. They're mainly for taking out multi-wound characters or units with decent toughness.

[Seahawk]

 

 

there is only one meta.

 

 

                   

 

 

This the single most absurd statement I've ever read on the B&C. 

[Warsmith Uveron]

The Predator autocannon is a great weapon, I also don't mind the lascannon sponsons although I'm totally with Jeske that D6 damage is a huge swing for damage, I obviously prefer it to D3 but 3+D3 or even 2+D3 would be better on some weapons. I have rolled a lot of 1s lately.

 

My local games have seen the rise of Necrons... Quantum shielding is a pain. against that I like it when my Las cannons only do 2 damage.  

[Cryptix]

 

 

 

 

there is only one meta.

 

 

 

This the single most absurd statement I've ever read on the B&C.

Oh boy.

I do not envy you when he comes back on, even though you're right.

On the other hand...

[Plaguecaster]

Maybe the Jeske is the meta, that would explain it :D his advice whilst not always accepted as the norm is still true ( I admit this rather begrudgingly) to a degree Edited June 28, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Seahawk]

Well sure, tournament advice is pretty decent, but to say only one meta exists is to say there's only one color rock in existence.

[Gordon Shumway]

I guess it depends on if you live in a place where only one rock color exists and your only knowledge of other rock colors comes from the Internet, not from experience. Other places have other predominately colored rocks. Unless they have and use the Internet too. His advice is sound in a general sense, and I have relied on it many times, but it isn't the only good advice out there if you are just looking to have a good time.

[Brother Aiwass]

If we take in account that the Jeske is our very own Chaos God of Insane Competition, then his advice is understandable. Maybe he doesn't play anymore -for health reasons afaik- but he indeed have a lot of tabletop experience and game knowledge. So, beware if you invoke thee* for his word is a sword.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Just by talking of unit performance, so you're doomed :P

[the jeske]

Well sure, tournament advice is pretty decent, but to say only one meta exists is to say there's only one color rock in existence.

Stuff is either objectivlly bad or objectivlly good. And battle cannons are objectivlly bad in 8th ed. Saying that they somehow aren't happens every edition ["but not everyone runs melta/rhinos"/"but not everyone runs deathstars"/"but not everyone runs grav"/etc], and each and every time at the end of an edition we end up with people going man that last edtion had so much grav/deathstars in it, that it wasn't much fun, and it is said not by tournament people[who like it or not have to adapt], but supposed casual playing people.

 

the closest thing we get to different metas is comparing places where FW is no questions asked[as in both ways. you do not have to ask if it is ok, because it is always ok. And vice versa in other places]. And  aside for some frindge moments in 3ed[siege company with solar macharius and unerrated hellfire shells] and 5th[your IG army has to start with 9 sabe weapon platforms], the FW stuff did not have enough impact to warrent [although this is my opinion here] say that FW and FW less games are two totaly different games.

 

This the single most absurd statement I've ever read on the B&C.

 

cool. makes more sense to me, then someone saying that defilers are good because , more or less, their opponents armies being bad build or played bad. To get a different meta you more or less have to use different core rules. At all other times the same type of armies end up good and same type of models are good/bad.

I have yet to see any of the bad units become good, the closest thing to it was when a defiler using list won a big tournament in 5th ed, and I thought that maybe I was wrong about them, and that maybe there is just a higher skill cap to play them. And then through all of 5th no defiler using list ever won a big tournament, and I have never seen or heard about them being used in an effective way aside for the magical "well when I play vs people with bad lists localy I destroy them with my defilers".

 

 

 

Jeske I can only say again that theoryhammer will only get you so far. Because stuff like this is just nonsence:

 

What is nonsense. you have a unit that has a bad gun. you can't effectily use it as a weapon platform. Plus you are runing it with those zerkers[using your example of use], so the chance that it will get in range of units that have anti tank of any sort is there. And as the defiler cost points, and not a few, it is going to limit the number of targets your army is going to give to your opponent. this means that the anti tank weapon per target in an army with defiler ratio is higher. And while [aside for those titan class/LOW weapons] most of the time anti tank weapons won't be one shoting vehicles[good thing], you are also faced with the problem of 8th vehicles being possibly killed by small weapon fire. And that is a problem, for all vehicles, but  when you cost like a defiler and are as an efficient as a defiler it is an additional problem. So no the main bad thing about a defiler is not the fact that on 1-2 wounds it may get finished of by some str 4 shoting, but it does kind of a add to how accurate it can hit stuff, to its points cost, to how well it does in melee, to how bad its main gun is and the fact that there are two other vehicles, that can do melee/shoting and they do it better then the defiler for less points. And that for more points you get a knight that also out performs defilers for a non liner increase of points.

 

 

 

I think your input and time is better spend playing the actual game and testing actual pieces.

 

you asked how many flamer type weapons it would take to take down an avarge flyer in 8th, don't like the anwser don't ask the question. A for the actual playtesting done by myself, I will resume it as soon as I figure out how to levitate with my wheel chair above a gaming table without hiting the celling or the fan at our store. Still working on it though.

Edited June 28, 2017 by the jeske

[hopkins]

If we take in account that the Jeske is our very own Chaos God of Insane Competition, then his advice is understandable. Maybe he doesn't play anymore -for health reasons afaik- but he indeed have a lot of tabletop experience and game knowledge. So, beware if you invoke thee* for his word is a sword.

 

*Just by talking of unit performance, so you're doomed

 

seconded. his knowledge and advice is top

[Commissar K.]

 

 

 

Jeske I can only say again that theoryhammer will only get you so far. Because stuff like this is just nonsence:

 

What is nonsense. you have a unit that has a bad gun. you can't effectily use it as a weapon platform. Plus you are runing it with those zerkers[using your example of use], so the chance that it will get in range of units that have anti tank of any sort is there. And as the defiler cost points, and not a few, it is going to limit the number of targets your army is going to give to your opponent. this means that the anti tank weapon per target in an army with defiler ratio is higher. And while [aside for those titan class/LOW weapons] most of the time anti tank weapons won't be one shoting vehicles[good thing], you are also faced with the problem of 8th vehicles being possibly killed by small weapon fire. And that is a problem, for all vehicles, but  when you cost like a defiler and are as an efficient as a defiler it is an additional problem. So no the main bad thing about a defiler is not the fact that on 1-2 wounds it may get finished of by some str 4 shoting, but it does kind of a add to how accurate it can hit stuff, to its points cost, to how well it does in melee, to how bad its main gun is and the fact that there are two other vehicles, that can do melee/shoting and they do it better then the defiler for less points. And that for more points you get a knight that also out performs defilers for a non liner increase of points.

 

 

 

I think your input and time is better spend playing the actual game and testing actual pieces.

 

you asked how many flamer type weapons it would take to take down an avarge flyer in 8th, don't like the anwser don't ask the question. A for the actual playtesting done by myself, I will resume it as soon as I figure out how to levitate with my wheel chair above a gaming table without hiting the celling or the fan at our store. Still working on it though.

 

Define 'bad gun', as a gun is only as bad as the target in question. You can effectively use it as aweapon platform. A Defiler with Scourge is a rather cheap prospect, everything costs ponts. As goes for all units, if your opponent forces their small fire of units onto the Defiler that same small fire is not targeted onto Marines or Daemons who have a much higher death ratio against said weapon. 

 

Anything can get destroyed within the game, the question is how you choose your own targets. A Defiler has the continued advantage of having a 3+, a 5++ and +1 Wound per turn. 

 

Lastly the question at hand was not how Flamer waepons would thake down an Average Flyer. 

- The suggestion made was to use Flying models with Flamers to engage, fall back and still auto-hit with said Flamer. Something a Heldrake can do. 

[Sception]

frankly, I'm pretty skeptical of the battle cannon, too.  d6 shots is basically 3(.5) shots, and on a platform that starts at BS4+ and then likely wants to move given it's melee abilities, you're talking about barely a single hit per turn on average.  Maybe if it had a 'stable platform' rule for all its legs to let it move & fire heavy weaponry.  I can kind of see using it in a static shooty list as a countercharge threat against big monsters and vehicles, idly firing off battle cannon shots as it waits around for an opening to charge, but even then it probably isn't the best choice for that in the chaos index, and certainly isn't the best choice for that once you start looking at FW alternatives, and its massive size makes it difficult to use in this manner as it will be hard to maneuver it around your other backfield units, especially if you're all turtled up to make the best use of your own screens & bubble wraps.

 

I don't hate the defiler as much as Jeske does, and certainly don't think it's as bad as it was in 6th and 7th editions, but I will say that my initial positive impression after seeing its 8e stat line has faded and I kind of wish I had picked something else to paint for diu ad belli.

Edited June 28, 2017 by malisteen

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

​++Moderator note++

​I've just had to remove a lot of off topic comment there.  This topic is about Heavy Support chose for Chaos Marines in 8th ed.

​Also please bare in mind that everyone has something different they enjoy in the hobby & may enjoy the gaming side of the hobby different from you.
 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Insane Psychopath

[micahwc]

Any thoughts on the hellforged scorpius. Reason I'm asking is that I have two painted up as sisters of battle exorcists right now and if they are good I'll probably repurpose them for my chaos army.

 

3D3 s6 2 damage shots at -2 AP that can fire twice if it didn't move this turn. It would be close to 500 points to bring both but they would average 24 shots a turn.

[Seahawk]

 

 

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but was toying with picking up a Khorne Blood Slaughterer for my World Eaters army. Anyone had an experience fielding one of these in 8th? How do they fair?

Go for it. Just keep in mind that Khorne usually doesnt need more melee heavies. A Zerk Champ with Fist gets a lot done.

 

 

An excellent point well made, thank you. Might just have made my decision on whether to get a Slaughterer or Decimator a little easier...

 

 

I was just reading up on the Decimator. Seems like having two Soul Burner petards would be a good idea. 4D3 shots, every hit is a Mortal Wound.

[Prot]

I think there's a lot of fun, great stuff from forgeworld. The Decimator (I just played against) is great. The Fire Raptor is great, heck the Kytan is looking alright, but out of the codex it's really hard to beat a predator annihilator. I lost a flyer T1 my last game to one 14 wounds. That D6 is just massive potential and it feels to me like Chaos can have issues with hard targets.

[Brother Aiwass]

Any thoughts on the hellforged scorpius. Reason I'm asking is that I have two painted up as sisters of battle exorcists right now and if they are good I'll probably repurpose them for my chaos army.

 

3D3 s6 2 damage shots at -2 AP that can fire twice if it didn't move this turn. It would be close to 500 points to bring both but they would average 24 shots a turn.

They're nice. 2 of them kill 10 conscripts/5 marines/4 terminators on average.

 

I think there's a lot of fun, great stuff from forgeworld. The Decimator (I just played against) is great. The Fire Raptor is great, heck the Kytan is looking alright, but out of the codex it's really hard to beat a predator annihilator. I lost a flyer T1 my last game to one 14 wounds. That D6 is just massive potential and it feels to me like Chaos can have issues with hard targets.

The laspred is really good, and if you're willing to add 30 points more on them, then they can fly, become harder to hit and grow a nice missile launcher. This is called the Xiphon ugrade :P