Fluff on 'failed' Primarchs in Dark Imperium

[Aramis K]

Reading Dark Imperium I thought this line from Guilliman was really interesting:

 

‘I was one of twenty. Two failed. Half the rest turned on my father. The Emperor is not infallible, nor am I.’

Chapter 9.

 

That's the first time I've seen the two missing Primarchs described as 'failed'.

 

Also interesting that he says this to a priest when I think previously the two legions were not mentioned at all.

 

And it suggests he doesn't know about Omegon.

 

Don't want to over-read but it's a pretty core book for the launch of the new edition and era so presumably any fluff is solid canon.

[Sandlemad]

Didn't ADB spitball something like this on B&C? Something about how everyone has their own idea of what caused the two mysterious primarchs to be erased from history, and how an idea he liked is that they just... failed, in a mundane way. Didn't conquer, didn't do well enough for the great crusade. The same kind of thing that Monarchia was supposed to warn Lorgar and the WB off.

 

In fairness it's also something I've seen mooted with a bunch of fan II/XI legion backgrounds. Not as widespread as the idea of a null/untouchable primarch but the concept of a pacifist or doomed primarch has been touched upon a few times by different fans, probably because the idea-space of possible causes for deletion from imperial records is tricky to work through once you eliminate chaos as a factor.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Sandlemad

[Shinespider]

To be fair, "failed" is a pretty broad term. Dying is a form of failure. 

 

Additionally, there isn't necessarily any reason to think that Guilleman actually met the two Primarchs. Maybe "They Failed" is just what the Emperor told him, which could be a cover-up for literally anything.

So yes, this is canon, but it doesn't actually tell us much.

 

That said, the idea of a Primarch being rejected because he simply wasn't good enough has a certain appeal.  

[Kinstryfe]

Guilliman likely met one or both of them. According to the "Official Black Library Order of Primarch Discovery", Guilliman was 8th, the unknown were 3rd and 19th. It is possible that 3 was gone before Guilliman was found, and 19 pulled an Alpharius and barely met some brothers including Guilliman before his tragedy, but I'd imagine it's likely they met if they were a big enough deal to have statues and everything.

That said, I do like the idea of one of them just being bad as a general. Lorgar was a great civilization builder but a terribly lacking general. It would also make sense he'd be a little paranoid if one of the lost was just a subpar weapon. Throw in one being alluded to as being a mutant on the caliber of Sanguinis, and it makes sense they just were just...bad at being Primarchs.

[Joe]

To be fair, "failed" is a pretty broad term. Dying is a form of failure.

I could list at least half a dozen reasons as to why that isn't the case.

[Demigod]

One guy had an interesting idea that one of the primarch got infected by a genestealer cult. Nevertheless failed can also mean that they did not want to submit to the Imperium or simply were killed by the local population. Angron was like one day away from meeting the same fate.

[jeffersonian000]

Kind of wished Guilliman knew all about them, and it's those in 40k that lost all knowledge of them, but that's not how GW is handling it. Too bad, it would make an epic story and cautionary tail that would allow a huge amount of space for DIY Chapters.

 

SJ

[The Mad Hermit]

I've never liked the story bits that gave birth to the addition of Omegon.

 

For forever there were exactly twenty primarchs... then, out of nowhere "Nope. One of the primarchs was actually twins!"

 

It just struck me as awfully gimmicky and 'kewl'.

 

As I said, I never liked the idea and I often, in my head-canon, ignore it.

[jeffersonian000]

I like the thought that one Primarch died, one was Sigmar, another was Omegon, and Gilliman was a Human uplifted to Primarch status. Fits all the original pieces into a working narrative.

 

SJ

[blackoption]

So you reject GW's reality and replace it with your own? 

 

Back on the original topic: There is no reason to think that Guilliman did not know both of the failed primarchs.  If anything, he knows what happened to them.  All the primarchs took an oath to not talk about what happened. 

[Ashur]

I like to imagine that one of the lost primarchs was a defender of human rights and the dignity of the individual. And he went down in imperial history as a failure, most likely deluded, and a disapointment to the Emperor.

[Tyrannicide]

It could be failure as in, "failed to fulfill their purpose" when judged by the Emperor. Every Legion was crafted to fill a role, and perhaps these two never settled into theirs as fit. 

[Doghouse]

I think it would have been pretty brutal (in a good way) if they were simply killed off by the Emperor for failure of duty. That'd open up a whole new can of worms in the father to sons relationship. I hope it forever remains a secret so that it sparks conversation like this.

[M@verik115]

Throughout lots of fluff it is stated that most if not all primarch either knew them or knew of them, but oaths were taken not to speak of them. 
We know leman russ probably took out one of the primarchs who "fell". 

The other failed in some other way, but never fell to anything. 

[D3L]

While the HH and the GC are presented in unreliable narration mode (so everything is possible, nothing is true), there are a few glimmers of backstory easily sourced

- The two missing legions/primarchs (along with at least one of their legions) being continually referred to as The Lost and The Purged (various HH novels and black books)

- the VI (primarch # and legion #) being continually referred to as the Emperor's Executioners and have experience fighting space marines, where a wolf-guard retinue is comfortable to try to take on a primarch (everywhere the Space Wolves are ever mentioned in the HH)

- In the aftermath of the Rangdan Xenocides, specifically the 3rd Xenocides, where the Cerbavore (brain-eating contraction, I presume) Rangdan (possibly the Slaugh, renamed) , entire Space Marine Legions were said to be lost to the Imperium, yet it took both the I, XX and the VI legion to correct/save the northern marches (Inferno, and an earlier black book)

with these snippets it suggests to me, that at least one of the missing primarchs ("The Purged") and associated legion was overwhelmed/possessed/enslaved by the Rangdan/Slaugh 

and... 

that's it

I'm happy to head cannon 'The Lost' as a humanitarian who refused to take up arms/lead his legion/follow through with the wholesale slaughter of humanity's lost colonies in order to establish an autocratic hegemony centered on Terra, and some being with that mentality with that raw power is too difficult and too unpredictable to be left behind your growing lines, I'd wager Leman put him down too, for safety's sake and the spare/unnamed legion/astartes were mind-wiped and assimilated in to the XIII
 

Edited June 26, 2017 by D3L

[Rosco151]

I think it's one of two alternatives:

 

A ) The Primarch failed to survive whatever world he was scattered to - whether a victim of environment or hostility. As has been said, the only reason Angron survived at all was because the Emperor forcibly 'rescued' him from his fate among the other pit-fighters. A Primarch is not invulnerable or immortal (with one exception, and his state of mind is questionable as a result).

 

B ) The Primarch failed, as in failed to conduct themselves in a manner appropriate for the Emperors goals and demands. As seen in recent literature, the Emperor views his Primarchs as tools, things, objects to fulfil his own purpose. They were either allowed to perish for their failures, or were eliminated by other means.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Rosco151

[bluntblade]

I refer you to AD-B's stipulation that Nothing The Emperor Says In MoM Should Be Taken At Face Value.

 

The truth is that the II suffered a breach in a section of the Webway that linked to their homeworld and had to choose between defying the Emperor and destroying their own planet. A sad business all round.

 

D3L, ever heard of the Wardens of Light? Cos that's not far off what you're talking about there.

Edited June 26, 2017 by bluntblade

[Xenith]

Sigmar wasn't II or XI, he was the Third triplet of the XX, Sigma.

[eyeslikethunder]

Of course the question becomes why destroy the two legions as well after most legions operated fine for long time before joining up with their primarchs suggesting some contact. After all if they just suffered an accident you would still have legion. Plus Im sure Magnus speaks about avoiding their fate

Edit found it

"I fear the Emperor will break the Word Bearers -- and break me. We would be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of."

Plus the statues place for the 2 primarchs

"Had been vacant for a long time. No-one ever spoke of those two absent brothers their separate tragedies."

And sanginius hides the red thirst from the emperor from fear of becoming the 3rd empty plinth

Edited June 26, 2017 by eyeslikethunder

[Kastor Krieg]

Sigmar wasn't II or XI, he was the Third triplet of the XX, Sigma.

That's a tasty one.

[Lord Marshal]

I'd rather at least one of them (and perhaps their Legion) went down fighting against an alien threat was just too much for them to handle alone. I think it would go some way to making the Great Crusade a bit more interesting than "the Legion effortlessly sweep aside pretty much everything, look how cool they were!". My favourite bits of lore from the era are when the Legions come up against enemies they can't just wash over without breaking a sweat. It would make the galaxy - even if it was back in the past - feel more dangerous that there were things, even back then, that could take down a Primarch. 

[Aramis K]

Throughout lots of fluff it is stated that most if not all primarch either knew them or knew of them, but oaths were taken not to speak of them.

Yes, I thought they were forbidden from mentioning them, which is why I'm surprised RG mentions them to a priest.

 

I generally like idea one legion fell to the Slaugh and was purged by the wolves.

[Guest pandion40]

If they were purged for failing it would have to be a pretty big failure. The Emperor tolerated some extremely limited and unstable Primarchs reasoning a crappy Primarch is better than no Primarch. Angron is the most obvious example here. But I also agree that saying they failed is a very broad term. You can twist that statement to fit almost any reason for the 2nd and 12th to be gone

[Teetengee]

Failed could also mean gene failure, could it not? Perhaps one of the primarchs ended up with even more unstable geneseed than BA/TS/RG but in their case it just caused breakdown. Eventually resources and recruitment couldn't keep up with attrition and the primarch decides to run the whole legion headlong into an enemy to try (and fail) to deal with them, rather than just slowly fade into the darkness. (Or whatever end you feel is more appropriate.)

[Scammel]

My own reading of the strongest apparent hints:

 

- Horus destroyed or otherwise 'ruined' one of his brothers during his time-travel shenanigans

- At least one legion and possibly their Primarch were attacked by the Space Wolves, implying insurrection of some sort

- The Ultras were the beneficiaries of 'reassigned' marines (perhaps the legion of the stillborn Primarch?)

 

Plenty of scope for mixing and matching between those vague pointers, but it definitely seems the case that at least one was purged and some ended up with the Ultras.