Fluff on 'failed' Primarchs in Dark Imperium

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

The wiki page mentions the different theories about the IX. The "lost in Scotland" theory was interesting, not to say I know what may have happened to them, it would fit with the setting. A Legion sets out on a new campaign and years pass, far too many years. The loss would be quite embarrassing for the newly forged Imperium. Whether they ran into the Xenos equivalent of Genghis Khan or the fleet ran headfirst into a warpstorm, they would still be gone. I hope they don't go any farther than "They failed" when mentioning the lost legions.

Or they might have survived and the Emperor made them dance the hempen jig for incompetence.

These kinds of subjects can be good exercise for the brain muscle. 

 

[Bulwyf]

I can't remember where I read this years ago but it made me theorize that at least one of the missing primarchs was sent out of the galaxy by the Emperor. That primarch encountered the Tyranids either in another galaxy or in the dead space between them and that is how the Tyranids knew to come to our galaxy. I would assume that primarch "failed" to deal with the Tyranids and was killed/missing as a result.

[Walter Payton]

I can't remember where I read this years ago but it made me theorize that at least one of the missing primarchs was sent out of the galaxy by the Emperor. That primarch encountered the Tyranids either in another galaxy or in the dead space between them and that is how the Tyranids knew to come to our galaxy. I would assume that primarch "failed" to deal with the Tyranids and was killed/missing as a result.

 

The Tyranids were first drawn to the Milky Way by the loyalist Warsmith Dantioch of the Iron Warriors overloading the Pharos device during the Heresy.  This is revealed in the epilogue of Pharos by Guy Haley.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Brother-Captain Alecto

[neonwolf]

So another tidbit about the II & XI legions, in the Dark Imperium novel there is an interesting dialogue between Guilliman and the "Cawl Inferior" about the Primaris Marines.  Apparently Cawl has access to not only the traitor legion gene-seed but also the gene-seed of the II and XI legions and has been experimenting with creating Primaris Marines from these gene-seeds.

 

Sounds like a great justification to come up with your own Primaris Chapter and say it is from one of these 11 legions instead of the 9 loyalist ones.

[Knight of the Raven]

It also gives justification for primaris against primaris battles, since Guilliman replied with a cathegorical no and even suspects Cawl has already done more than just experimenting. He might just sic the forces loyal to him on Cawl's primaris once the Archmagos becomes the problem Guilliman expects hims to turn into, or even before that actually happens, regardless of whom the primaris from the forbidden Legions are loyal to.

[Daigo Cannon]

My two cents from reading HH series

 

- The two lost brothers were met by some of the primarchs.

- At least the statues on Terra indicate they all reach adulthood and met with the Emperor and at some point join the imperium.

- One legion was purged by Russ and the wolves for sins against the imperium/emperor.

- UM and Wolves took part of the cleanse of the second legion, Rob doing this as it is commanded to him by the emperor, mainly by UM great numbers and Russ on his role as executioner, I don't recall if any other legion assisted on this.

  @ It is implied that the cleanse of this legion was necessary, but no hate from the task force to the target legion.

[Walter Payton]

I'm curious - why do you think that the XIII took part in the purges?

[Spinsanity]

 

Sigmar wasn't II or XI, he was the Third triplet of the XX, Sigma.

That's a tasty one.

 

There's a very, very obvious hint towards this in HH:Book 3, but with no book on hand I can't quite point towards it.. On the Alpha Legion "splash page" (that red page which liste the Legion's homeworld, famous engagements, etc), the legion "icon" actually features 3 skulls: one bears an Alpha, one an Omega, and the thirds features a (lowercase, iirc) sigma...

 

Actually, here's a link to an image of it I found on Google:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4e/bf/14/4ebf148ff4edebe9d1e94bea9c9ff38a--warhammer-k-legion.jpg

[Theis]

I've always been attracted to the idea that at least one of the two missing primarchs, when educated about the Emperor's plans for them, took it upon themselves to stage their own disappearance. 

 

Hmmm, here I am, basically a demigod, and doomed to a millennia long life of warfare, strife, and servitude? I'll be given a state of the art fleet, and a legion of genetically enhanced super soldiers to this end? Hmmm

 

Then, upon reaching whatever frontier they were assigned to, just, wandering off. Maybe they took their flagship. Maybe they took their most loyal astartes with them. Maybe they just did it quietly, one day their honor guard went to their quarters to retrieve them, and they simply weren't there.

 

Desertion would certainly be failure from the Emperor's point of view.

[Skalpynock]

 

 

 

 

Sigmar wasn't II or XI, he was the Third triplet of the XX, Sigma.

That's a tasty one.

There's a very, very obvious hint towards this in HH:Book 3, but with no book on hand I can't quite point towards it.. On the Alpha Legion "splash page" (that red page which liste the Legion's homeworld, famous engagements, etc), the legion "icon" actually features 3 skulls: one bears an Alpha, one an Omega, and the thirds features a (lowercase, iirc) sigma...

 

Actually, here's a link to an image of it I found on Google:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4e/bf/14/4ebf148ff4edebe9d1e94bea9c9ff38a--warhammer-k-legion.jpg

I have another, less extravagant but more subtle interpretation of that sigma. An uppercase Sigma is the mathematical symbol for a sum. Regardless of Alpharius or Omegon, the sum of the Legion is its own primarch. Any legionnaire, by being a part of the whole, can be the whole in itself. All are Alpharius, Alpharius is All, for Alpharius is no one.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, if Omegon and Sigmar are the lost Primarchs, then we have our 20. The original Sigmar lore had him arrive in the WHFB world just like all the other Primarchs, hince the reason why he is always referenced despite the retcons within the WHFB narrative to the contrary. However, regardless of old lore or new lore, Sigmar was never found by the Emperor and never met his brothers, which creates a conflict within the current HH narrative that the WHFB retcon attempts to fix. Too bad, it was such a good story hook.

 

No, Omegon being the original Primarch of the XX Legion, while Alpharius was the II Legion Primarch that is now in hiding has been an excellent fan theory that still holds weight, despite the HH narrative to the contrary. Personally l love the idea, especially if no one knows if it was Omegon not Alpharius. Tickles the nerd in me.

 

But in the end, we know one was purged while the other was lost. Rus claims to have done the purging, yet we also know none of the Primarchs knew one if them could kill a brother, which means Rus more likely than not purged the failed legion, but not his brother. Given hints from Mangus and Sanguinius, chances are the purged legion became physically unstable and/or utterly insane, with the purge being more of a mercy killing.

 

As to the lost ... we should never know.

 

But let's speculate! We know it occurred after the Crusade started, but long before the events of HH started, which gives us a very short window of roughly 150 years to look at between finding Horus and finding Alpharius to see when the two were found, yet maybe only a 10-20 year window after Alpharius/Omegon for the missing Primarchs to be removed, which places it just before Lorgar was sanctioned by his Father. Which means Lorgar was aware of his fate if he failed, which in turn means The Emperor's decision to end two of His sons is what prompted the events that lead to the Heresy. And by that logic, the story that will never be told is the only story that matters, the story of the missing Primarchs.

 

Way to paint yourselves into a corner, GW!

 

SJ

[Knight of the Raven]

I never liked the idea of twin primarchs, but I dislike the idea of Omegon being the primarch of either one of the lost legions even more. But I'm not so stupid as to consider that to equal "this idea is terribad and no one should ever like it."

As for Sigmar, he left his Empire to "go east" (because cool cats ride off into the sunrise rather into than the sunset) at some point and no one found his body. The Emperor could have met and uplifted him then, or Sigmar could have traveled to either polar portal and somehow ended up in the wider galaxy.

 

Of course, now he's a god in its own almost entirely separate setting, so yeah.

[Slave to Darkness]

I vaguely recall A D-B wishing he had never included this bit of world-building in The First Heretic precisely because everyone latched onto this rumor like it was the trufaxest trufax to have ever trufaxed. I'd look for the post (if it actually exists) but I have no idea what to even put in the search engine in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

One guy had an interesting idea that one of the primarch got infected by a genestealer cult.

I mean, that would predate the earliest canonical examples of genestealer cults by over 9,000 years, but hey, why not?

Que ~seven people furiously typing out all the bits and hints and suppositions available. Catachan Devils, Fenris Krakens, mysterious lines from novels mated to wishful thinking, and so on and so forth. But yeah, not a lot of canon there. But then again, no reason to suppose Games Workshop wouldn't go there. And after all, "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past", and there are no prizes for guessing who's in charge.

Indeed, tyranids got actively involved with the Milky Way a long while later. And it's not even certain genestealers would have existed back then anyway.

 

As for the people you describe, I wish they would realize that automatically considering these species related to tyranids from the start without ever thinking of another possibility is incredibly unimaginative in addition to making the universe extremely smaller. Are you telling me there can only be one species of killer bugs from space in the entire Virgo supercluster?

Wasnt there a novel where an Inquisitor ends up going back in time with a Stealer on his ship? That being the reason why Ymargril (sp) had them before the Hive Fleets first arrived?

 

Or did I dream the convo I had when someone told me that? :lol:

[BadgersinHills]

Well, if Omegon and Sigmar are the lost Primarchs, then we have our 20. The original Sigmar lore had him arrive in the WHFB world just like all the other Primarchs, hince the reason why he is always referenced despite the retcons within the WHFB narrative to the contrary. However, regardless of old lore or new lore, Sigmar was never found by the Emperor and never met his brothers, which creates a conflict within the current HH narrative that the WHFB retcon attempts to fix. Too bad, it was such a good story hook.

 

 

In the Sigmar novels by Graham McNeill, Sigmar has a biological mother and father which puts an end to one of the lost Primarchs being Sigmar. 

[Teetengee]

 

Well, if Omegon and Sigmar are the lost Primarchs, then we have our 20. The original Sigmar lore had him arrive in the WHFB world just like all the other Primarchs, hince the reason why he is always referenced despite the retcons within the WHFB narrative to the contrary. However, regardless of old lore or new lore, Sigmar was never found by the Emperor and never met his brothers, which creates a conflict within the current HH narrative that the WHFB retcon attempts to fix. Too bad, it was such a good story hook.

 

 

In the Sigmar novels by Graham McNeill, Sigmar has a biological mother and father which puts an end to one of the lost Primarchs being Sigmar. 

 

Unless they lied to him!!!!  :p

[Xenith]

 

Well, if Omegon and Sigmar are the lost Primarchs, then we have our 20. The original Sigmar lore had him arrive in the WHFB world just like all the other Primarchs, hince the reason why he is always referenced despite the retcons within the WHFB narrative to the contrary. However, regardless of old lore or new lore, Sigmar was never found by the Emperor and never met his brothers, which creates a conflict within the current HH narrative that the WHFB retcon attempts to fix. Too bad, it was such a good story hook.

 

 

In the Sigmar novels by Graham McNeill, Sigmar has a biological mother and father which puts an end to one of the lost Primarchs being Sigmar. 

 

 

Those came out in GW's "lets dissociate fantasy from the 40k universe" phase, and removed any mysticism from it.

 

All of which was largely retconned by the End Times/AoS events, where it turns out Sigmar was a warp entity after all, can possess his followers at will, and float freely in the warp, travelling through the multiverse. He can even elevate his mortal followers to daemons 

[Tamwulf]

As someone noted earlier, failure is a broad term, and has many personal definitions as well.

 

Each Primarch had a particular skill set. Guiliman was "created" to lead- second founding and all that. Maybe his definition of failure includes "a lack of leadership" or "unable to accomplish a goal", as well as your more traditional viewpoints on failure.  

[Omegius]

On the heresy30k forums, somebody recently posted about the possibility of a pariah primarch. That's an extremely interesting possibility, IMO. 

 

If a primarch did have the pariah gene (and being a primarch, presumably it'd be turned up to 11), perhaps the Emperor couldn't risk having somebody so powerful that he couldn't control?

Edited July 5, 2017 by Omegius

[jeffersonian000]

We have three examples of failures that were considered to be enough to end a Legion. Of those three, two had solutions that allowed those Legions to continue (Space Wolves, Thousand Sons), while the third kept their issue hidden (Blood Angels). We know the lengths to which the Emperor went save a Legion (Emperor's Children, Raven Guard). It can be surmised that at least one of the missing missing Legion was too unstable to be allowed to continue, while the other probably was quite stable but did not follow orders (much like Word Bearers).

 

SJ

[The Doctor Of War]

We have three examples of failures that were considered to be enough to end a Legion. Of those three, two had solutions that allowed those Legions to continue (Space Wolves, Thousand Sons), while the third kept their issue hidden (Blood Angels). We know the lengths to which the Emperor went save a Legion (Emperor's Children, Raven Guard). It can be surmised that at least one of the missing missing Legion was too unstable to be allowed to continue, while the other probably was quite stable but did not follow orders (much like Word Bearers).

 

SJ

 

There is also the example of Angron. He failed to conquer/inherit the world his Stasis Pod landed on, and was mutilated with the Butchers Nails to add insult to injury. But the Emperor kept him around because he thought he could still be useful. So the two failures must have really gone off the rails, if they reached the point where not only did they not live up to the Emperor's plans, but also had zero usefulness to him.

[Walter Payton]

 

Each Primarch had a particular skill set. Guiliman was "created" to lead- second founding and all that. 

 

Do you have a source for that?  I know Guilliman is sometimes theorised to be the Emperor's planned heir or regent, but so far as I know that is mostly said in-universe by characters with an agenda - for example Kor Phaeron in The First Heretic.

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

We have three examples of failures that were considered to be enough to end a Legion. Of those three, two had solutions that allowed those Legions to continue (Space Wolves, Thousand Sons), while the third kept their issue hidden (Blood Angels). We know the lengths to which the Emperor went save a Legion (Emperor's Children, Raven Guard). It can be surmised that at least one of the missing missing Legion was too unstable to be allowed to continue, while the other probably was quite stable but did not follow orders (much like Word Bearers).

 

SJ

There is also the example of Angron. He failed to conquer/inherit the world his Stasis Pod landed on, and was mutilated with the Butchers Nails to add insult to injury. But the Emperor kept him around because he thought he could still be useful. So the two failures must have really gone off the rails, if they reached the point where not only did they not live up to the Emperor's plans, but also had zero usefulness to him.

I would consider Angron to be a failure, as his Legion was quite stable. Remember, while the Legions were intended to be lead by their Primarch and each Primarch had a specific role, each Legion could operate without issue on their own without a Primarch, as they did throughout the beginning of the Crusade. As in, Primarches were a bonus, not a necessity.

 

No, the World Eaters were not failures.

 

SJ

[The Doctor Of War]

 

 

We have three examples of failures that were considered to be enough to end a Legion. Of those three, two had solutions that allowed those Legions to continue (Space Wolves, Thousand Sons), while the third kept their issue hidden (Blood Angels). We know the lengths to which the Emperor went save a Legion (Emperor's Children, Raven Guard). It can be surmised that at least one of the missing missing Legion was too unstable to be allowed to continue, while the other probably was quite stable but did not follow orders (much like Word Bearers).

 

SJ

There is also the example of Angron. He failed to conquer/inherit the world his Stasis Pod landed on, and was mutilated with the Butchers Nails to add insult to injury. But the Emperor kept him around because he thought he could still be useful. So the two failures must have really gone off the rails, if they reached the point where not only did they not live up to the Emperor's plans, but also had zero usefulness to him.

I would consider Angron to be a failure, as his Legion was quite stable. Remember, while the Legions were intended to be lead by their Primarch and each Primarch had a specific role, each Legion could operate without issue on their own without a Primarch, as they did throughout the beginning of the Crusade. As in, Primarches were a bonus, not a necessity.

 

No, the World Eaters were not failures.

 

SJ

 

 

I wasn't saying they were, my point was that if a Primarch as flawed and arguably unsuccessful - prior to being found that is - as Angron is still considered worth keeping, then for the 2nd and 11th to be destroyed, they must have had significant issues.

 

Likewise there's the examples of the Legions that had problems. The Emperor's Children were reduced to a few hundred Marines. The Emperor didn't give up on them. The Thousand Sons suffered rampant mutation, the Emperor didn't give up on them. The Word Bearers didn't achieve as much as the Emperor wanted, they were chastised but they weren't annihilated.

 

That suggests to me that the 2nd and 11th had to have gone wrong in catastrophic fashion, otherwise the Emperor would have found something to salvage. He's not one to throw away a tool he can still make use of.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Retconned Legion

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

 

 

We have three examples of failures that were considered to be enough to end a Legion. Of those three, two had solutions that allowed those Legions to continue (Space Wolves, Thousand Sons), while the third kept their issue hidden (Blood Angels). We know the lengths to which the Emperor went save a Legion (Emperor's Children, Raven Guard). It can be surmised that at least one of the missing missing Legion was too unstable to be allowed to continue, while the other probably was quite stable but did not follow orders (much like Word Bearers).

 

SJ

There is also the example of Angron. He failed to conquer/inherit the world his Stasis Pod landed on, and was mutilated with the Butchers Nails to add insult to injury. But the Emperor kept him around because he thought he could still be useful. So the two failures must have really gone off the rails, if they reached the point where not only did they not live up to the Emperor's plans, but also had zero usefulness to him.

I would consider Angron to be a failure, as his Legion was quite stable. Remember, while the Legions were intended to be lead by their Primarch and each Primarch had a specific role, each Legion could operate without issue on their own without a Primarch, as they did throughout the beginning of the Crusade. As in, Primarches were a bonus, not a necessity.

 

No, the World Eaters were not failures.

 

SJ

I wasn't saying they were, my point was that if a Primarch as flawed and arguably unsuccessful - prior to being found that is - as Angron is still considered worth keeping, then for the 2nd and 11th to be destroyed, they must have had significant issues.

 

Likewise there's the examples of the Legions that had problems. The Emperor's Children were reduced to a few hundred Marines. The Emperor didn't give up on them. The Thousand Sons suffered rampant mutation, the Emperor didn't give up on them. The Word Bearers didn't achieve as much as the Emperor wanted, they were chastised but they weren't annihilated.

 

That suggests to me that the 2nd and 11th had to have gone wrong in catastrophic fashion, otherwise the Emperor would have found something to salvage. He's not one to throw away a tool he can still make use of.

That's what I been saying the entire time.

 

SJ

[The Doctor Of War]

That's what I been saying the entire time.

SJ

 

 

And i've been agreeing with you the entire time. My apologies if my first reply came across as disagreement, bringing Angron up was always meant in support of what you were saying; that the 2nd and 11th had to have failed in an colossal way otherwise the Emperor would have found something to salvage and keep using.