Fluff on 'failed' Primarchs in Dark Imperium

[TheRealMcCagh]

Isn't there a reference in either First Heretic or Deliverance Lost that has both Alpharius and Omegron in the same gestation chamber? How could either one be one of the missing Primarchs if they shared a tube and why would they be twins if one was a lost Primarch? 

 

I like the idea that one of the missing Primarchs landed on a xeno-friendly planet and the Primarch grew up pretty tolerant of xenos. Than when the Emperor found him he either refused to kill his xeno buddies, or tried out some gene-seed on them. Either case would be betrayal enough that even the traitor legions would refused to acknowledge them. Whatever the reasons may be, I kind of hope GW never gives solid information about them and they are left a mystery.

[Wulf Vengis]

That thought that maybe one of them tried using geneseed on a xeno may be worth expanding. Its new and definitely fits the bill for what were discussing.

It especially fits the original fluff of a half Eldar librarian in the Ultramarines as well as the the fluff stating that the UM as we know them are secretly a replacement for a traitor legion.

[bluntblade]

RMC is correct, Vengis is comprehensively wrong. There are rumours that the Ultramarines gained numbers as an upshot of whatever happened, but that's no more than conjecture. There is no basis for them being replacements for a Lost Legion, let alone that Legion being traitors.

 

And hybridism is just bunkum anyway.

[Canadian_F_H]

Interesting discussion (as the II and XI usu ally are)

 

Some thoughts...

 

Sigmar and Archon as the missing primarchs. Unfortunatly requires ignoring several retcons in the lead up to and thru WFB end times and AOS. But ignoring retcon is a hobby of mine, lol.

 

The idea that a primarch landed on say an exodite world with no humans is terribly interesting but wouldn't lend to them being even temporarily absorbed into the imperium so I feel it would fall apart to soon naratively.

 

Ultramarines numbers issue... does not require a single II or XI legionnaire but rather the XIII taking over their recruiting worlds and any recruits immediately pre-geneseed. As well as acquiring all their material assets... thousands of suits of power armour, bolters, tanks ships etc...

[Jarka]

May I point out something lapalissian that I've not see yet in this thread?

 

II + XI = XIII

 

Coincidences?

 

Now I'm going to wear my tinfoil hat and to hide in the closet.:)

 

By the way, really interesting topic frates

[jeffersonian000]

In the same vain as R+L=J, Ii+XI=XIII is supported in Rogue Tradered, under Roboute Gilliman's blurb that tells us he was a Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard that was awarded Primarch status and that his geneseed was used to found his own Astartes Chapter, the Ultramarines.

 

SJ

[Skaorn]

I do hope GW does go into the lost legions now that they are bringing Primarchs back, but I doubt they will. While RG might be tight lipped about it there are Chaos ones that don't care about their oaths and might be willing to spread what happened if it makes the Emperor look bad.

 

Personally though, I hope they both were lost to big Xenos threats (which might come back for payback after their attempted xenocide). I think it would make the GC actually seem like a difficult campaign. One failed by getting lost in battle and one failed by getting controlled and had to be purged.

 

If I could bring the lost legions back, I might have Abaddon go to the chaos gods for a counter to the Primaris and convince them to do a little Chaos like necromancy and bring the lost back, twisted and different. Give Chaos something new to play with.

[The Doctor Of War]

I do hope GW does go into the lost legions now that they are bringing Primarchs back, but I doubt they will. While RG might be tight lipped about it there are Chaos ones that don't care about their oaths and might be willing to spread what happened if it makes the Emperor look bad.

 

Personally though, I hope they both were lost to big Xenos threats (which might come back for payback after their attempted xenocide). I think it would make the GC actually seem like a difficult campaign. One failed by getting lost in battle and one failed by getting controlled and had to be purged.

 

If I could bring the lost legions back, I might have Abaddon go to the chaos gods for a counter to the Primaris and convince them to do a little Chaos like necromancy and bring the lost back, twisted and different. Give Chaos something new to play with.

 

I have to say i hope the exact opposite, that the Lost Legions remain an unanswered question. The Horus Heresy novels have clarified and explained a lot of the mysteries of 40k's history, and now we are getting to see the current time frame through the eyes of Primarchs and seeing the thoughts of Daemon Primarchs. I'd like at least a few things to remain unknown. I'm also biased because i'm a big fan of some of the Lost Legion projects here on Bolter and Chainsword, and i'd rather talented painters and modelers keep the freedom to explore the mystery.

[Skaorn]

I doubt very much that they will do anything with them so people can make their own legions. The way they have it set up though in the setting, very few people will generally take your personal legion seriously and it also even less supportive of making one Chaos (why would they hide). There is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing any of this but the setting is kind of hostile to it. If I created one and decided my Primarch was actually female for instance I'd mostly be hearing how the setting says I can't do that, even though I'm just doing what I want to do. It would be easier if GW had set them up as being lost in the Warp and only the Emperor really knew any details about them, so players could run with their legions having returned from the Warp in a setting that is a bit friendlier to something like that happening.

 

The reasons why I personally want GW to go into the Lost Legions is because I think it would be a great opportunity to actually make the GC actually seem great. Two entire legions lost to alien conflict seems much better to me than the Emperor didn't like them so he got rid of them. It makes it seem like the GC was actually a significant risk rather than that everything was going fine, barring some pockets of trouble, until Chaos got involved. Of course, I also want more Xenos in 40k and it would be nice to have more large scale threats.

 

They also brought back Primarchs, which I wish they hadn't, which is a major reason for wanting more info on the lost. We have gone from everything being myth and legend to "I was there and the Emperor had a turkey sandwich". The whole whole idea that the Primarchs don't talk about it due to oaths doesn't really hold up when you have Magnus and Lorgar kicking about.

[bluntblade]

I sincerely hope the Lost don't just become some new weapon for Chaos. Leave them alone and enigmatic. Or if they absolutely have to canonise it, make Icarion and Raktra or Gwalchavad official.

[Ishagu]

One of the missing was described as the Lost, the other the Purged.

 

So... a fleet led by a Primarch vanished without a trace during the early days of the Crusade? That's a possibility.

It's also possible for this fleet to re-appear in the 42nd millennium now that the Warp is opening up everywhere :-D

[Spinsanity]

So... a fleet led by a Primarch vanished without a trace during the early days of the Crusade? That's a possibility.

It's also possible for this fleet to re-appear in the 42nd millennium now that the Warp is opening up everywhere :-D

Then again, Lost could also simplybe referring to a Primarch/Legion lost in battle.

 

For example, what if the reason there were so many legions fighting on Ulanor was because one had fallen there? Didn't their warboss almost strangle the Emperor? Maybe he managed to do just that to a Primarch beforehabd?

[bluntblade]

That doesn't work chronologically. Lorgar is fretting about being cast alongside "the brothers we no longer speak of" after Monarchia.

[DerekLee688]

I'm guessing one Primarch and Legion was mutated beyond saving, heck, maybe it was a psyker mutation that where popping out daemons like bubblewrap? Anyway: Purged

 

The other one probably raised an army or turned his legion against the Emperor. Maybe xenos, maybe they where technologically advanced humans with "men of iron" or "men of stone" who refused to integrate with the Imperium? Maybe the Primarch's legion  got divided up among UM's and others and didn't fight, but it would be pretty cruel/grimdark if they got split between SW and UM to destroy the army their Primarch raised. 

 

3rd and completely unfounded idea:

The lost Primarch landed on a world populated by renegade thunderwarriors who secretly conquered or colonized a world to hide from the Emperor. That would have been a heck of a fight when the Emperor made that landing to reunite with his lost boy who took up with the "obsolete" but stronger and more violent discards of humanity. Bonus theory: combine #2 and #3 and you have one heck of a campaign/crusade setting.

Edited July 13, 2017 by DerekLee688

[Eddie Orlock]

It especially fits the original fluff of a half Eldar librarian in the Ultramarines as well as the the fluff stating that the UM as we know them are secretly a replacement for a traitor legion.

Illiyan's nothing more than a figment of early installment weirdness. Back in that era Marine's were much more integrated into the ordinary Imperial military structure, he wasn't actually a marine with implants.

 

Any dreams of the ultra's actually being an in-setting ret-con evaporated when they started publishing the heresy series. Once upon a time I daydreamed that while Roboute was their primarch sometime shortly after the third founding when the chapters still liked to pretend to legion loyalties Roboute lead his original name bearing chapter to their deaths (and probably a few different second founders) but the Ultra's were characteristically late to the party and thus escaped the fatal ambush. The picked up all the relic gear and their gene-fathers crippled frame and as a reward Roboute named them as his new first sons. Overtime prior records got lost or 'corrected' to reconcile discrepancies in who is Robute's heirs Thus, the modern ultra's could've both been third founding nobodies and custodians of Gulliman's legacy. Naturally, like most reconciliations from that era this's been heartlessly crushed on by later authors and the ongoing shrinking of the setting.

 

---------

 

W.r.t. the missing pair, I once harboured the notion that like the fallen, when the primarchs got cast through the warp these two got outlier shifts in time as well. Perhaps one might've got cast into the past and one even further into the future. Once upon a time I'd've alleged that Malcador might've been the one sent to the past and the big E didn't even recognise his own creation as he hadn't had the idea to create him yet. Maybe Malcador creates himself? This leaves The Emperor with one final secret reserve when the last lost son comes home.

 

Sadly, as they build more and more canon around the hole it gets smaller and smaller and the shape becomes increasingly constrained and the mystery removed. It's like detecting a submarine in silent running by the hole in the water it leaves on your sonar.

[bluntblade]

You'd think Malcador's inner monologue would mention that.

[gitface]

Just throwing some wood on the fire, but didn't GW say something early on in the 8th announcement about there being some new factions and expanding on old ones as 8th progresses.

 

We already have the Death Guard getting a full codex etc for and old faction expanding.

 

Just a thought given whats been discussed.

[Skaorn]

Just throwing some wood on the fire, but didn't GW say something early on in the 8th announcement about there being some new factions and expanding on old ones as 8th progresses.

 

We already have the Death Guard getting a full codex etc for and old faction expanding.

 

Just a thought given whats been discussed.

Yes, it turns out there was really 25 Primarchs and the Emperor sent the other five off to do funky things. More SM armies!

[Eddie Orlock]

You'd think Malcador's inner monologue would mention that.

One, I said once upon a time. i.e. I might've daydreamed this on the first I'd heard his name, or vaguely wondered if the name wouldn't fit a musing I already had.

 

Two, supposing it was true, without the Emperor to claim him as a son, how would he even know? The capsules were scattered before they were decanted, how much do you remember of your mother's womb?

... the Emperor sent the other five off to do funky things. ...

Why would a non-crusading primarch need a space marine legion?

[Bulwyf]

I still hope to see one of them that was described as "the Lost" come back after being gone for 10k years. If not sent out to the galaxy and running into the tyranids since that theory of mine is no longer possible then they could still have been sent out of the galaxy to explore/conquer and finally come back home.

[Kelborn]

On the heresy30k forums, somebody recently posted about the possibility of a pariah primarch. That's an extremely interesting possibility, IMO. 

 

If a primarch did have the pariah gene (and being a primarch, presumably it'd be turned up to 11), perhaps the Emperor couldn't risk having somebody so powerful that he couldn't control?

 

Ever heard of the Brotherhood of the Lost Project and the Wardens of Light in particular?

 

You haven't? Go check it out! ;)

Just follow the link in my signature and you're almost there.

[Omegius]

 

On the heresy30k forums, somebody recently posted about the possibility of a pariah primarch. That's an extremely interesting possibility, IMO. 

 

If a primarch did have the pariah gene (and being a primarch, presumably it'd be turned up to 11), perhaps the Emperor couldn't risk having somebody so powerful that he couldn't control?

 

Ever heard of the Brotherhood of the Lost Project and the Wardens of Light in particular?

 

You haven't? Go check it out!

Just follow the link in my signature and you're almost there.

 

 

I hadn't... but there's a typo in your link! It's sowrd instead of sword...