Death Guard Disappointment

[Warmaster Phthisis]

I started my Death Guard army back in 3rd edition under the 3.0 Codex.  Since then there have been a lot of ups and downs for the Death Guard army list (along with Chaos as a whole) but the Death Guard rules in the Chaos Index are the worst they have ever been.

 

Omitting Terminators from the Legion that invented them was a slap in the face.  The text in the page next to the Death Guard army list talks about Death Guard Terminators and yet the army list omits them.  If the indices are really a stop gap measure, there's no reason to specifically omit them from the units available to take the Death Guard keyword.  This brings up some concern for me about the way that the design team is conceptualizing the Death Guard army list.  Excluding Terminators along with Bikers and Raptors suggests that the designers don't understand the Death Guard fluff and think that Terminators only appear in Death Guard armies when worn by their commanders.  But really, this is just the insult added to the injury.

 

Plague Marines have always suffered from low damage output.  You didn't take Plague Marines because they were killy, you took them because they were dead hard.  In every version of the Chaos codex previous, Plague Marines were at least the toughest bastards in the book point-for-point.  The weapons options were pruned down to only the specialist weapons, plague knives got nerfed, FNP was made less effective, point values increased.  They might not have been able to cause much damage by the end but at least they could take it like no other.  

That's not true anymore.  The point values are still just as high, their blight grenades and plague knives have been nerfed again, and they can run away now, but the worst thing is that Plague Marines are no longer able to tank damage better than other options in the index.  Point-for-point, you're better off taking bog standard Chaos Space Marines just on survivability alone (and that's before you take into consideration the equipment options and higher damage output).  The new point-for-point champs are Rubrics.  With +1 to Armor against things that cause 1 damage, and 5+ invlunerable saves, they out-tank Plague Marines in most situations, and only lose their durability advantage over Plague Marines against Str 5 attacks and then only marginally.  Rubrics also have a marked damage output advantage over Plague Marines.  

 

Poxwalkers have their uses, but many of the things Poxwalkers are good for, Cultists can perform better.  Cultists are cheaper and have shooting weapons.   They can do area denial and objective camping just as good as Poxwalkers can, but they can do it while contributing to the bodycount.  With flamers and shotguns they provide a better screen than Poxwalkers.  They can move faster than Poxwalkers as well.  In order to get the best performance out of Poxwalkers you have to get Typhus and a Noxious Blightbringer, and even then they can take most of the game to get into position to assault.

 

The core of the Death Guard army list is Plague Marines and Poxwalkers.  Poxwalkers are a situationally okay choice but Plague Marines are in every way a sub-par unit that does not perform well in any combat role.  I don't think that the new Codex will change that.  GW changed the Plague Marine unit's rules for the Index, and it would be very odd if they changed the unit into a form that they planned on radically changing with their first codex. 

 

I really like the new 40k, and I really like most of the things in the Chaos Index, but unfortunately the Death Guard have been left by the wayside.  I hope that GW fixes Plague Marines in the new codex and I hope they are releasing Death Guard terminators, but I've been jerked around as a Chaos player for too long to really hold out hope.  The Traitor Legions codex was the best we ever had.  These past 6 months felt so right but it was all ripped away and I don't hold out much hope that it's coming back.

 

The new models in the Dark Imperium box are wonderful and I see a lot of people starting Death Guard armies.  My advice is don't.  Wait to see if the Death Guard Codex is any good. Don't waste money on models that will be collecting dust as soon as you realize that they're holding you back.  And for those of us who have been devoted Death Guard players for these past years, broaden your horizons and sample all of what this new Chaos has to offer.  Overall the whole list has improved immensely and there are plenty of good options.

[hopkins]

I'll put my house on Plagueshroud Terminators, or something new and faction specific, accompanying the incoming codex

[Goreshed]

Except DG weren't into bikes and raptors. The players used them because they could and because with the t6 on the bikers it made them good. All the fluff points to infantry, not those two units.

[adreal]

The death guard preview video will give you plague terminators

 

They were most likly omitted due to the fact they don't have models right now and normal terminators won't get disgustingly resilient, like how basic lords and sorcerers don't.

[Lagrath]

Yeah the expensive units, slow movement, and sudden exclusions of good units stinks. Fingers crossed the new codex will be good.

[dark_elf]

As a Slaanesh player, you do not realise how much better you have it. In 8th we got 2 unit entries in the book, Lucius and Noise Marines. And over the years we got no support from GW and FW. No new models or unit entries for either 40k or AoS.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

The Death Guard video didn't include any terminators.  The photo of the terminator with the rictus grin was a leak that occurred around the same time.  Because of the pose and the face, it's possible that photo is of a new character instead of one of a unit.

 

There are no models for World Eater or Emperor's Children Terminators and yet Terminators can still take those legion keywords.  GW used to make Plague Havoc models, that are still in use, and Havocs were omitted as well.  There are units included in the Death Guard army list that have neither T5 nor Disgustingly Resilient, so that is obviously not the reason that Terminators were omitted.  Their decision to exclude Terminators, which are very much a Death Guard specialty, in the same manner that they omitted Bikes and Raptors which are not, is concerning.  It suggests that, as more than one design team has believed in the past, that the Death Guard legion consists entirely of Plague Marines and that Terminator armor is reserved for Lords only.

 

Terminators or no, it still doesn't address the main reason that the Death Guard isn't a viable army.  Plague Marines suck.  They under-perform cheaper units on both offense and defense. There is no combat roll you could want them for that you can't find another unit that can do the same job better and cheaper. They are the most expensive individual cult marine and yet less useful than a standard Chaos Marine at almost half the cost.  It's disheartening that this mistake was made on an army that was being released in the starter box. 

 

It's very disappointing that they didn't carry over the same approach as the Traitor Legions codex.  Plague Marines were perfectly fine when they were just CSM squads with T5 and FNP for 18pts.  

[Warmaster Phthisis]

As a Slaanesh player, what do you want?    In previous editions you've had the double lash armies, and icons that add FNP on top of some pretty badass firepower.  

 

In 8th edition, you have access to the entire Heretic Astartes Index and Noise Marines are absolutely amazing.  Have fun with your new more awesome awesome army!

[Sception]

The world eaters and emp children get normal csm units and characters because their cult-specific stuff isn't literally right around the corner. You're about to get cult terminators and mortarion at the very least. Possibly more.

 

I'm not saying the overall list won't be rather more narrow than you're used to, you probably wont get DG bikers or jump troops, given that the DG fluff always pushed infantry, and iirc there were no dg bike or jump troops (apart from oddball all champ chosen units) last time death guard had their own army rules. But with new models and rules literally right around the corner, like 2 months max, i think its premature to start complaining.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Mortarion is a sure thing.

 

There's no guarantee there's going to be Death Guard Terminators.

GW produces models for Death Guard Terminators

These models cannot have the Death Guard keyword.

GW hasn't released any photos of Death Guard terminators.  One photo exists and nobody knows where it came from.  It could be a character or a conversion.

 

I don't care about Nurgle bikers or raptors.  My army is full of Plague Marines.  Plague Marines suck.  Their dataslate has already been released.  GW isn't going to make any radical changes to it for the Death Guard codex.  They can't. 

[dark_elf]

What Malisteen said.

 

Lets see...

 

Unit Entries for 8th GW

- Typhus

- Lord of Contagion

- Malignant Plaguecaster

- Poxwalkers

- Plague Marines

- Foetid Bloat-Drones

- Noxious Blightbringer

Total of 7 unique units for DG.

 

Unit Entries for 8th FW

- Greater Blight Drone

- Plague Hulk of Nurgle

- Necrosius The Undying

- Samus

- Mamon

- Cor'bax Utterblight

- Plague Toads

- Pox Riders

- Scabeiathrax The Bloated

Total of 9 for DG.

 

In contrast, from GW Slaanesh players get Lucious and Noise Marines, and from FW Zarakynel. 

 

What more I do want? Hmm maybe one or two more unique options instead of 3 total across both GW and FW in 8th. I won't even start on Fantasy and AoS range of models that allows Nurgle players access to kit bashing characterful units for their 40K armies.

 

Your army release(s) are not over. In fact, they just started. What about Slaanesh players? When do we get new units and / or models? In 6 months? 12? 24? Never?

 

Your army changed in the new edition and you don't like it. I get it. It sucks. But it's temporary. If you really don't get any terminators when your faction dex drops I'll be the first to complain with you and champion your cause.

 

Slaanesh players literally have no idea when / if we will get a codex. And given how AoS has ignored our faction, a lot of us wouldn't be surprised if we get the same treatment in 40k here on out.

[bozo69pd]

Just had a great 50 pp game last night in a multiplayer FFA match. Poxwalkers + Typhus were amazing. Typhus killed a wraithknight nearly by himself (another sorcerer threw 2 smites onto it) which is something I have dreamed about since Eldar got their new codex in 7th.

 

I think that is about the extent of a pure DG list being good though. I had brought a sorcerer and some helbrutes, and they seemed good at first, then I realized them not having disgustingly resilient was a real problem as the enemy focused them and they all died.

 

I do completely agree with you about plague marines, they are particularly tough against battle cannons (so str 8 doesn't wound 2+) but otherwise they are too many points and not doing enough.

 

I am mostly hurt by the Lord of Contagion though... man I wanted that guy to be good so bad, but you should never ever take him over Typhus.

 

I did win the carnage multiplayer scenario in the end because nobody could outscore the poxwalkers. Turn 5 even with everyone shooting scatbikes, whirlwinds, and imperial knights at them my last zombie made 3 disgustingly resilient rolls on the last phase of the game and won it for me.

 

Time to convert my 200 cultists into poxwalkers, and just troll everyone with Typhus + zombies once again. Hopefully when I get Morty in there too their will be some synergy. Hopefully the DG codex release in July will add special terminators (like how TS get scarabs) and maybe a relic or something to help buff PMs.

[dark_elf]

Mortarion is a sure thing.

 

There's no guarantee there's going to be Death Guard Terminators.

GW produces models for Death Guard Terminators

These models cannot have the Death Guard keyword.

GW hasn't released any photos of Death Guard terminators.  One photo exists and nobody knows where it came from.  It could be a character or a conversion.

 

I don't care about Nurgle bikers or raptors.  My army is full of Plague Marines.  Plague Marines suck.  Their dataslate has already been released.  GW isn't going to make any radical changes to it for the Death Guard codex.  They can't. 

 

I am not sure what you want and hope to get from your thread. You don't like Plague Marines because they suck and you believe GW won't alter them in 8th, at least not significantly to make them any better.

 

We have models for the Sonic Dread but no rules either.

 

If this is the case, perhaps you should take a break from 40K. I sat out of 6th and 7th  because I didn't like the way they handled Chaos. Do you have another army that you can use as your primary army for 8th?

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Dark_Elf,

 

I envy your position.  Your core unit is amazing in the new rules and you have no limitations on what you can take.  I'd rather Plague Marines be decent than have Malignant Plaguecasters and Noxious Blightbringers and Foeted Bloat Drones that are next to worthless.

 

You envy my position.  Tons of new models regardless of the rules.

 

If only we could swap armies.  I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Sception]

After years of being the best cult, plagues kind of aren't anymore, that's certainly true.  Rules change.  It happens.  It's unfortunate.  My advice is to invest your emotional attachment in models and fluff rather than rules, because they're far less likely to be pulled out from under you (not impossible, mind, ask any 3.5 Emperor's Children player).

 

At least in 8e there's a good chance that, if your conclusions about plague marines become a general consensus within the larger community, that they'll see a points drop in a years time, since points costs across the board are supposedly getting updated yearly.  That's a lot quicker turn around for some potential remedy than in the past.

[dark_elf]

Dark_Elf,

 

I envy your position.  Your core unit is amazing in the new rules and you have no limitations on what you can take.  I'd rather Plague Marines be decent than have Malignant Plaguecasters and Noxious Blightbringers and Foeted Bloat Drones that are next to worthless.

 

You envy my position.  Tons of new models regardless of the rules.

 

If only we could swap armies.  I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

Maybe you would consider joining Slaanesh...

 

I've been in this hobby since 2nd Ed and I know through experience, that the current rules are temporary. 9th will come then 10th and so on. Today your rules aren't the best, in a few years they might be, if you stick around long enough.

 

You want your core troops to be great but unfortunately they aren't so my suggestion is to play your other armies if you have one. At least until your dex arrives and maybe there's something in there to make you excited about your army. If not, maybe 9th etc.

 

I would never trade my army or faction. While I did not know how neglected it was going to be 6th onwards, I knew early on that it was not as favoured by GW as say Khorne or Nurgle.

 

Do I wish for more models or units? Yes. Sometimes. But I don't envy your position and the above is why.

[dark_elf]

After years of being the best cult, plagues kind of aren't anymore, that's certainly true.  Rules change.  It happens.  It's unfortunate.  My advice is to invest your emotional attachment in models and fluff rather than rules, because they're far less likely to be pulled out from under you (not impossible, mind, ask any 3.5 Emperor's Children player).

 

 

I still have Sonic Terminator Arms I converted from 3.5. I also have Sonic Predator turrets and sponsons and the Sonic Dread of old. Good times. A golden era for Chaos.

[Sception]

It was, indeed.  A golden age for 40k, generally.  The glories of the Eye of Terror campaign will never be seen again.

[Plaguecaster]

I'm just sad there isn't some sort of PA elite unit as I never have been a fan of terminators so even if we get new terminators I'll be just limited to plague marines and possessed which are really lacking this edition. I'd really love to take Chosen but like terminators and havocs are not allowed:( if only GW could at least give us some indication of when the new stuff will hit as lately every new type of Primaris unit seem to be coming out of the woodwork whilst all the Death Guard stuff teased months ago has no mention ( apart from the starter set stuff )

[Sception]

I don't have any advance knowledge, but I would expect to see primaris releases through July and death guard following along in august, maybe september if they sneak in a major AoS release.  That's just predictions and expectations, and same as the prediction/expectation that we'll see plague terminators there's no guarantee, but that's what seems most likely to me.  To the point that I'd honestly be very surprised to see pre-orders on the new death guard stuff start rolling in any sooner than the first week of august august or any later than the second week of september.

[Goreshed]

I've also heard that once the first dex drops, all dex's will drop within the next year.

 

That's something around 2 new dexs a month once it starts, maybe more one month and less another, but still. Once it starts the flood gates will open.

 

And I would like to point out that not only has GW taken back the destruction of the Squats but they also have the beastment back in the fluff as well. Just saying, things are possible, who knows maybe I might get a decent Lost and the Damned list ala Eye of Terror style in the future.

[DeadFingers]

There's no guarantee there's going to be Death Guard Terminators.

GW hasn't released any photos of Death Guard terminators.  One photo exists and nobody knows where it came from.  It could be a character or a conversion.

 

Yeah, exactly, no guarantee.

 

We just have this picture.

 

 

Oh but nobody knows where it came from.

Except that it was shown oficially by GW at AdeptiCon with the rest of the models seen int he initial teaser.

 

But the uploader could be a liar and GW never showed this picture and it's a fake leak and/or a conversion.

Except he looks on point with the style chosen for the Death guard such as the toothy grin and nails and is carrying the exact same weapon as the Bloat Drone, a model that wasn't shown until a couple of months later.

 

But sure, no guarantee.

[Lagrath]

Guys....that picture has been around forever...because it is in the damn GW official trailer they first released for Death Guard...come on now.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

I have seen many reports showing the Adepticon teaser pics that do not include the terminator with the rictus grin.

BOLS doesnt have it

Nor is it covered in Warhammer Community or posted on the AdeptiCon website.  It's not included in the Death Guard teaser video either.

So far I have only seen it posted in forums and on SpikeyBitz.

I'm fairly sure it's legit, but there's no guarantee that this is indicative of Death Guard terminators incoming.  The pose makes me think that this is another Character model.

 

Dark_Elf, I would consider joining Slaanesh.  Noise Marines are excellent all-rounder infantry.  Lots of fire power, speed and fierce in assault.  They can camp objectives, take up firing positions and go toe-to-toe with pretty much anything and push a unit off an objective when they need to.  Plus your characters can summon in daemonettes, which are one of the better daemon choices.  Add in some bikes and raptors and you've got a very fun and effective army.

I've also been thinking of Tzeentch.  Their daemons aren't as good, but Rubrics and Scarab Occult Terminators are very resilient and their special rules and equipment make them act more like Plague Marines and Plague Terminators should. 

Khorne is pretty awesome too, of course.   Basically, I love what the designers did with the Chaos list with the exception of what they did to the Death Guard. 

 

It's hard for me to believe that the design team that created the Traitor Legions Codex are the same people who wrote the Chaos Index.  To demonstrate such a complete understanding of what the Death Guard army should really be, and then 6 months later release another book that tears their previous work to shreds by doing the exact opposite and to do so in such a way that's not reparable... It's so damned confusing.

[Uprising]

I remember the days where we just painted models and shouted pew pew noise while laughing on the tables.  What happen to those days?  I am just happy we got new models.