Death Guard Disappointment

[Scammel]

I had to do a double-take on some of the content of this thread. We have a DG Terminator Truther who isn't sure that a model from a GW teaser video is a guarantee that the model exists, and the equally bizarre claim that 8th ed somehow has 'no narrative'.

[Sception]

Mostly its that the temporary death guard rules are less playable than other temporary CSM rules, if you stick exclusively to their legion.  The reason for this is that the new death guard stuff is right around the corner, and GW didn't want to tip their hand by putting all their new unit rules in the index.  So no rules for mortarion, none for plague terminators (if they're actually coming, which, let's be honest, they almost certainly are), no power armored lord, no options on the termi lord or drone, etc.  This in contrast to the thousand sons, who already had their release, so the index includes a much fuller selection of cult units for them, or the world eaters & emperors children, who aren't getting their revised cult range any time soon, so they're still allowed to take all or at least most of the generic units.

 

Things will get better with the codex and full death guard range.  Not great, mind.  I'd refer to the thousand sons for an approximation of the still rather reduced range of options to be expected.  But still, better than they are now.  It'll just be an annoying month or two wait for their full release, plus annoyance at spending $25 on tide-you-over rules that don't tide so well for death guard players in the mean time - though to be honest even if the codex were out day one they'd probably still want the chaos index for the nurgle daemon rules.

[Scammel]

It could just be the fact that I'm a child of 3.5, but am I the only one that quite enjoys the challenges of a restrictive sub-faction list? They had dozens of them in the 6th ed Fantasy books, and I always quite liked the idea of sacrificing a slice of army capability for a handful of unique rules or units. I feel much more like 'part of the club' when I've made the choice to drop Bikers and Havocs to run a pure Sons list, and I've always had respect for those players committed to themes that don't always rock the top tables.  

[Lord Marshal]

The lack of Terminators and such I can stomach by virtue of the unique versions inevitably coming along soonish (look at the left shoulder, that's clearly Cataphractii).

 

The problem I have is how much stuff was yanked out for no obvious reason that presumably won't be getting a replacement kit. Why can they take Predators but not Vindicators? Why can they take Defilers and not Forge/Maulerfiends despite both of them being Daemon Engines? Hell, the Forgefiend is a walking fire support battery so the whole "b-b-but their doctrine!" goes out of the window there. 

[Sception]

the pred/vindi thing is pretty arbitrary.  drakes are out, i presume, because they're supposed to use the DG specific drones instead.  It's possible they're getting something similar to take the place of fiends as well, though that's a much less certain thing than the termis.

 

there are many units restricted for seemingly no reason though, yes.

[Gaz Taylor]

The lack of Terminators and such I can stomach by virtue of the unique versions inevitably coming along soonish (look at the left shoulder, that's clearly Cataphractii).

 

The problem I have is how much stuff was yanked out for no obvious reason that presumably won't be getting a replacement kit. Why can they take Predators but not Vindicators? Why can they take Defilers and not Forge/Maulerfiends despite both of them being Daemon Engines? Hell, the Forgefiend is a walking fire support battery so the whole "b-b-but their doctrine!" goes out of the window there. 

 

As mentioned above, it's purely down to what we might see in the Death Guard Codex. You also need to remember that the Index books may have been complied many months ago and the things that only really changed was the unit prices. The list with Death Guard Codex units at the start of the project could be very different to what it is now. I'm happy to wait and see and having been through this with Age of Sigmar, I know I'm going to be happy with what they do.

[Prot]

If I had just started Thousand Sons... today and all I had to choose from was Goat People (Tzaangors) an Exalted Sorcerer, and Rubrics, then I'd probably think wow... this army is showing me glimpses of what is to come. Thousand Sons could end up being amazing.

 

Instead you've had a glimpse at the very beginnings of a Faction's releases and declared it disappointing. 

 

I think considering how good the initial releases are, and how good the initial rule sets are for those releases, you are probably looking at one of the most (if not the most) potent Chaos Factions available....once it is completed. 

 

Right now is the best time to play these guys. Playing a "Legion" means very, very little right now. 

[Panzer]

It could just be the fact that I'm a child of 3.5, but am I the only one that quite enjoys the challenges of a restrictive sub-faction list? They had dozens of them in the 6th ed Fantasy books, and I always quite liked the idea of sacrificing a slice of army capability for a handful of unique rules or units. I feel much more like 'part of the club' when I've made the choice to drop Bikers and Havocs to run a pure Sons list, and I've always had respect for those players committed to themes that don't always rock the top tables.  

Nah you aren't. However the Index is too restricted for almost no benefit if you want to go with a mono legion army with Death Guard or TSons at the moment.

However that'll change once we get the Codex. Then there will be more benefits to restrict yourself like that and hopefully more units for Death Guard as well. ;)

[Sception]

If I had just started Thousand Sons... today and all I had to choose from was Goat People (Tzaangors) an Exalted Sorcerer, and Rubrics, then I'd probably think wow... this army is showing me glimpses of what is to come. Thousand Sons could end up being amazing.

 

Instead you've had a glimpse at the very beginnings of a Faction's releases and declared it disappointing. 

 

I think considering how good the initial releases are, and how good the initial rule sets are for those releases, you are probably looking at one of the most (if not the most) potent Chaos Factions available....once it is completed. 

 

Right now is the best time to play these guys. Playing a "Legion" means very, very little right now. 

 

Honestly speaking, the current Thousand Sons selection probably isn't 'just the beginning'.  It's probably the entirety of what they get for some time.  A codex is likely to bring updated rules for the sons, but not a greatly expanded range of units (I'd guess maybe just a termi exalted, maybe a 40k version of the disk riding tzaangors, prob not more than that).  The fenris campaign release was the thousand sons release, it already happened, and their available selection already represents practically the entirety of what the narrative describes them as using (sorcerers, rubrics, cultists/beasts, rhinos & predators, summoned daemons), at least on 40k battlefield scales.  If you're starting Thousand Sons today on the assumption that their unit & model range is going to double within the next year, or even the next decade, you're probably setting yourself up for disappointment.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it doesn't not strike me as a likely or reasonable expectation.

[Prot]

 

If I had just started Thousand Sons... today and all I had to choose from was Goat People (Tzaangors) an Exalted Sorcerer, and Rubrics, then I'd probably think wow... this army is showing me glimpses of what is to come. Thousand Sons could end up being amazing.

 

Instead you've had a glimpse at the very beginnings of a Faction's releases and declared it disappointing. 

 

I think considering how good the initial releases are, and how good the initial rule sets are for those releases, you are probably looking at one of the most (if not the most) potent Chaos Factions available....once it is completed. 

 

Right now is the best time to play these guys. Playing a "Legion" means very, very little right now. 

 

Honestly speaking, the current Thousand Sons selection probably isn't 'just the beginning'.  It's probably the entirety of what they get for some time. 

 

 

I agree 100 percent, but that's actually not what I'm saying... at all.

[Scammel]

I think Prot is making the argument that if the Sons only had Gors, Sorcs and Rubrics to their name, with more obviously on the way, he'd be feeling optimistic - which is exactly the position the Guard are in now. I don't think there's an expectation of more goodies for the Sons, bar AoS overlap as you point out.

 

I definitely agree that the current DG list is very arbitrary in the case of vehicle restrictions. The exclusion of Terminators makes sense for now, but not Vindicators or Forgefiends.

[Sception]

oh, sorry, I misunderstood.  Because, gors, sorcerers, and rubrics (and a similarly arbitrarily abridged vehicle list) kind of are all they have to their name, if you include the scarabs in with their power armored equivalents.  

[Scammel]

Well, Scarabs, Magnus, and a much improved Ahriman, too. We're clearly not expecting an absolute deluge of brand-new DG kits, but after so many years of cult players having to manage their own expectations it feels a little like staring a gift horse in the mouth.

[Commissar K.]

It could just be the fact that I'm a child of 3.5, but am I the only one that quite enjoys the challenges of a restrictive sub-faction list? They had dozens of them in the 6th ed Fantasy books, and I always quite liked the idea of sacrificing a slice of army capability for a handful of unique rules or units. I feel much more like 'part of the club' when I've made the choice to drop Bikers and Havocs to run a pure Sons list, and I've always had respect for those players committed to themes that don't always rock the top tables.  

I think all of us enjoyed that because it added character for restrictions.

 

The way the army operates now is exactly as the Index Chaos depicts. You play Chaos, all mixed and everything is possible. To me this isn't a bad thing whatsoever but leaves very little reason to none to follow any specific Legion Keyword as the main Keyword of your army. However I'd like to say that this is now and is the same way AoS Chaos was re-designed. Like AoS I expect to eventually have advantages to Detachments who are completely made up from units with Keyword Khorne, Nurgle etc. However that time is not yet now.

 

The advantage however for me is that we do have acces to tons and tons of Troop choices, as Chaos is arguably one of the largest spread Faction Keyword. Mixing everything has drastical advantages for us and luckily this is a complete viable and competitive option.

 

Tons of troops: 

- Chaos Space Marines

- Chaos Cultists

- Khorne Berzerkers *insert <Legion> Keyword WE

- Plague Marines *insert <Legion> Keyword DG

- Rubric Marines *insert <Legion> Keyword TS

- Noise Marines *insert <Legion> Keyword EC

- Tzaangors

- Poxwalkers

- Bloodletters

- Plague Bearers

- Horrors

- Daemonettes

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Some of you are starting to get it.

 

The core of the Death Guard army is Plague Marines, and Plague Marines suck. They under perform in every phase in the game and aren't even the most resilient anymore. Poxwalkers can be good in specific situations but in most cases Cultists are a superior choice. These core units stats aren't going to change and they matter far more to the viability of the army than Terminators that may (probably) be incoming.

 

The unit restrictions on the Death Guard in the Chaos Index are inexplicably narrow. The fluff on the page to the left specifically mentions the Death Guard making use of Terminators and Daemon Engines and yet they are omitted from having the Death Guard keyword. There are two possibilities that I can see here. One is that GW deliberately torpedoed the Death Guard in the Index to make buying the new codex more appealing, which would be daft, or that the design team doesn't know who the Death Guard are, which has happened before. Neither bide well for the upcoming codex.

 

Synergy in the Death Guard is broken because the Death Guard keyword is broken. Nurgle's Gift is lackluster as well.

 

The time to complain is now. GW said they would listen to the players and make adjustments. There's no reason to sit on our hands and wait until the codex comes out, especially since the damage has already been done. Awesome terminators won't make Plague Marines useful. We should voice our disappointment and make a clear case for what is needed.

[Commissar K.]

Idk, having fun is key.

 

Commissar Khârn leading the Gunsquad is hilarious.

[Scammel]

 

The unit restrictions on the Death Guard in the Chaos Index are inexplicably narrow. The fluff on the page to the left specifically mentions the Death Guard making use of Terminators and Daemon Engines and yet they are omitted from having the Death Guard keyword. There are two possibilities that I can see here. One is that GW deliberately torpedoed the Death Guard in the Index to make buying the new codex more appealing, which would be daft, or that the design team doesn't know who the Death Guard are, which has happened before. Neither bide well for the upcoming codex.

Or, CSM Terminators aren't in there because they won't be in the eventual list either due to the new cult kit, and the lack of particular vehicles is an oversight/is also paving the way for new models in similar roles.

[DeadFingers]

The unit restrictions on the Death Guard in the Chaos Index are inexplicably narrow. The fluff on the page to the left specifically mentions the Death Guard making use of Terminators and Daemon Engines and yet they are omitted from having the Death Guard keyword. There are two possibilities that I can see here. One is that GW deliberately torpedoed the Death Guard in the Index to make buying the new codex more appealing, which would be daft, or that the design team doesn't know who the Death Guard are, which has happened before. Neither bide well for the upcoming codex.

 

Or, OR, and brace yourself because this might be mind blowing, the fact that they can't take normal Terminators, if anything, confirms the coming of Death-Guard-exclusive Terminators, and they didn't include vanilla Termies because they didn't want people making Death Guard lists with them, buying boxes of termies and painting them in Death Guard colours only to have them invalidated in a month or two when the Death Guard Codex comes out and vanilla Termies aren't in the Army List anymore in favour of DG Termies.

 

Look, I myself critisize GW when they deserve to be critisized, but right now it honestly seems to me that you have made the decision to be disappointed and don't want to change that state of mind, since you appear to be denying the facts and logic we're trying to make you see, such as DG Termies coming or the fact that Indexes are just a temporary fix for people to be able to play with the currently existing models until proper Codices with faction-specific rules, stratagems, etc. come out. 

[Commissar K.]

Change always comes with some struggle and upset people. Every edition its the same story. Narrative changes, rules change and this always means some choices are lost.

 

I miss Chaos Dreadnoughts. It is what it is.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

That's just stupid. Excluding existing units from an interim list because you're going to release a new one in a few months, then that defeats the entire purpose of the interim list.

 

Hey Blood Angel players! You're getting new Death Company models, so we omitted them from the Index to keep you from buying our old models. Sorry that Death Company doesn't exist now, but its only a few months! Oh, and no Furiosos, land speeders, drop pods or Devesataors for no reason too. No reason or explanation. You can take those units but they just can't be Blood Angels.

 

If that was the case, Blood Angel players would be furious and nobody would blame them for it. But if it happens to Death Guard, well then, Chaos players should know their place by now I guess.

 

And my main point has never been Terminators. That's just the insult. The injury is that Plague Marines are terrible. They're supposed to be the toughest infantry choice for the CSM and yet they are not and they're still the most expensive.

[Sception]

That's just stupid. Excluding existing units from an interim list because you're going to release a new one in a few months, then that defeats the entire purpose of the interim list.

 

This I agree with somewhat, though at the same time if I was a new player who wasn't up on all the rumors, and I bought regular CSM terminators to go with my lord of contageon because the index said I could, only for fancy Plague Terminator models to appear scant weeks later, I'd be pretty bitter about that, too.

 

Ideally, they should have just previewed more of the coming death guard models, and included more of their rules in the index.  Not everything, not mortarion, not faction level rules - whatever those end up looking like.  But whatever.  It is what it is.  And, again, nurgle players aren't exactly wasting money on the index anyway, since you'd still probably want it for the daemon rules, which i doubt will be getting a new codex this year.

[Panzer]

That's just stupid. Excluding existing units from an interim list because you're going to release a new one in a few months, then that defeats the entire purpose of the interim list.

 

Hey Blood Angel players! You're getting new Death Company models, so we omitted them from the Index to keep you from buying our old models. Sorry that Death Company doesn't exist now, but its only a few months! Oh, and no Furiosos, land speeders, drop pods or Devesataors for no reason too. No reason or explanation. You can take those units but they just can't be Blood Angels.

 

If that was the case, Blood Angel players would be furious and nobody would blame them for it. But if it happens to Death Guard, well then, Chaos players should know their place by now I guess.

 

And my main point has never been Terminators. That's just the insult. The injury is that Plague Marines are terrible. They're supposed to be the toughest infantry choice for the CSM and yet they are not and they're still the most expensive.

It's better than making people hope so they buy and convert units they later can't use as they possibly did with the Traitor Legions supplement.

At the end of the day, they just can't make everyone happy.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Right, so it makes more sense to exclude Terminators because they aren't coming than it does to exclude them because they are coming.

 

I'm not saying that Death Guard Terminators aren't coming. I'm saying excluding them from the index is stupid whether they're coming or not. It's equally as stupid as, for example, excluding Death Company from the Blood Angels index because the Blood Angels codex is due out soon.

 

Also, Plague Marines suck and the design team has locked them in with the current data sheet because it was already released. The Plague Marine rules we have now will be the ones in the imminent Death Guard codex.

[Scammel]

Right, so it makes more sense to exclude Terminators because they aren't coming than it does to exclude them because they are coming.

 

I'm not saying that Death Guard Terminators aren't coming. I'm saying excluding them from the index is stupid whether they're coming or not. It's equally as stupid as, for example, excluding Death Company from the Blood Angels index because the Blood Angels codex is due out soon.

I'll bet you a fiver that Death Guard Terminators won't have Reaper Autocannons.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

I bet you a fiver that the existing models for Death Guard Terminators do.

 

The Index was supposed to have rules for existing models so you could play until your codex came out. Forge World sold the kits and the Traitor Legions Codex had the rules for them. People had been modeling them since December, if not before.