Death Guard Disappointment

[Commissar K.]

Well a lot of things changed in this edition, a lot of things can be marked as stupid. The thing however is that whatever the reason is GW allows us to do X and Y, wether that is good, correct or cool or not is subjective.Chaos as a whole in essence is one big Chaos Undivided in the current Index. Chaos in Age of Sigmar had the same design from the start. What we see is that the 40K designers cherry picked a lot of AoS design types, for better or worse.

While Death Guard in their Keyword are more limited in the practicle sence of it all it doesn't matter all to much. Re-rolling 1's in the same area doesn't 'stack'. Having multiple Sorcerers with spells that target Keyword Death Guard don't stack either.

It's certainly odd and daft that certain models like Chaos Terminators cannot have the Death Guard Keyword. It is also extremely odd that models like Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch cannot have the Thousand Sons Keyword. In general many narrative driven rules are removed from the current version of the game.

Keep in mind that this too is very much the subject of change in the future. Be happy that Death Guard at least gets updated models. Since my break from 5th I'm still looking at the same fugly Khorne Berzerkers as I did when I stepped out. I'm just happy Khârn finally got an update and Forge World actually bothered to create some better looking World Eater Berzerkers.

What we see in 8th is the after effect of stripping lore and old rules to the bone and adding onto it. Currently nothing makes much sence anywhere from a narrative standpoint. What however is better as ever is the internal model design meaning that any choice can very much be defended as a solid choice. I actually prefer this over good narrative because good narrative might come or might not come.
We have dead Primarchs return to this game, we have fleeing models claiming objectives and just moving within 1" of enemy models is impossible. From a narrative perspective this all doesn't make sence but it is a game in the end.

 

[DuskRaider]

They're going to have their own weaponry, which isn't in any kit currently. We know at the very least they'll have Plaguespitters or whatever from the Bloat Drone.

 

Best advice I can give you is to move on. Play generic Nurgle or another army. Those with patience understand the actual book is coming along with new units to make the army more playable. Those who can't wrap their mind around this or are too impatient should find something else to fill their time.

[Commissar K.]

I'm uncertain wether or not it was here, but this: 

http://i.imgur.com/1X6U0sR.jpg

 

Is most certainly NOT a Blightking conversion. 

Bits of that kit can be checked here:
https://megabitzshop.com/Putrid-Blightkings_1

Both designs certaily allow for some overlap but no different as AoS' Khorne Skullreaper bits having some overlap with Khârn. So if anything, have patience. Be happy the faction gets new stuff at all. I would have loved it if they went for a World Eaters vs Space Marine starter. It's amazing how new design is apparently not cared for here on the forums?

Cheers,

[adreal]

Granted I don't play death guard, so it may be obvious, but how are plague marines a bad unit??

 

They are still toughness 5 and their fnp is better now (they always get it, granted how we take damage has changed in the core Rules, but they get it against anything).

 

They did loose bolter, bolt pistol and plague sword, but so did most units and they did keep the poison knife, so still get a re-roll (albeit of a 1) in combat. But unless they are dedicated close combat, most all chaos units lost combat edge (plus it gives possessed a reason to exist)

 

Offensively they got better with more options (new gun) and kept the double special under 10 rules (iirc)

 

Now points will be different, but everything in the game has different points values based on the new rules (which we are all still getting our heads around), so from a 7th ed mindset, they might be overcosted (though I don't see it personally), in 8th they could be just right.

[Commissar K.]

Oh if someone dislikes Plague Marines from a game standpoint Id suggest testing them with Thyphus and more DG Psykers.

 

Blight Launchers are legit and units of 7 have an excellent size. Grab Poxwalkers and Spawn and your DG will continue the preassure.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Plague Marines are far less tanky than they used to be.

 

Str 3 weapons wound on a 5+ now. They used to wound on a 6+. You're taking double the number of wounds you did before.

 

You have to roll Disgustingly Resilient against each point of damage. Previously you got FNP against everything except Str 10 or Instant Death. Now a Plague Marine has to roll multiple saves to survive against a heavy weapon.

 

Against Str 4 weapons, there isn't much change. But the overall loss of resilience against small arms and heavy weapons hurts their overall survivability.

 

Rubrics are equal or better than PMs at tanking damage except for against Str 5 weapons only. Point-for-point, regular CSM squads take more damage and do more damage than PMs.

 

Basically, the rules for PMs don't work as well in this edition, they lost their Ld bonus, valuable pieces of equipment were removed or nerfed, and the point value was left the same. Now they aren't particularly good at the only thing they are designed to do.

[Commissar K.]

The way the S/T table works now applies to all. As a result new T5 is not better or worse as old T5, the whole system is just completely different.
One of the key elements within Plague Marines remains the Blight Launcher, it's an excellent weapon. 
Where I agree is that if you exclude Thypus to your force there isn't any significant reason to change Keyword <Legion> to Death Guard. However this currently applies to all units with Keyword <Legion> because like Keyword <Mark of Chaos> it does not have any drastical effect on the Datasheet.

Thyphus however is well worth his points in any scenario, significantly buffs the Death Guard output and most of all makes Poxwalkers significantly 'balls of steel' a unit easily underestimated based on core stat judgement.

Again if players do not want to test it out and play it, that is all up to you. Keyword World Eaters in that same example does absolutely nothing, there isn't even a Psycic defense. In the case of Emperor's Children oddly enough they do not even come with their own Psychic Spells. Making the only reason to actually play them often being the named character. To me this is a non-issue because you have to play whatever you like. NOTHING forces you to play all Keyword Death Guard or all Keyword World Eaters, somehow the veterans seem upset with the ton of choices they have gained.

Are the Indexes incomplete and completely designed without much flavour and narrative reasoning? Yes. However this does not make the game less good or removes from any Matched play experience. If your looking for a Narrative play experience I do agree that 8th's cotent is lacking. Tactical variance however is there enough.

[the jeske]

Well nothing forces would imply  not playing/wanting to play  legion X, but chaos. If someone wants to play DG the number of options droped, until new stuff comes, all of this would probably hurt people less, if the legion book never existed .

[Commissar K.]

Well nothing forces would imply  not playing/wanting to play  legion X, but chaos. If someone wants to play DG the number of options droped, until new stuff comes, all of this would probably hurt people less, if the legion book never existed .

There is no bonus to exclude yourself to Keyword Death Guard. So what would be the reason to ever want to play solely with Keyword Death Guard at this point?

What kind of options are you looking for? Competitive ones? If so, indeed play Chaos, with Index Chaos.

 

The same applies for again any Legion, it's not like DG are extra poor... You just (last week) recieved new models and a ton more are awaiting them... How is this not good?

 

[Seahawk]

I don't get it.

 

- they get more saves against heavy weapons than they did before, but this is worse than nothing at all?

 

- they got harder to wound with medium- heavy weapons (3+ now instead of 2+), but because they are easier to wound with S3 this is worse?

 

- they can take even more special weapons than before, but this is worse?

 

 

Seriously, I think you should cool your jets. The Death Guard codex is on the horizon, with new units and a bloody primarch. A month or two of better (but worse?) rules won't kill you.

[bozo69pd]

Not saying names but man I am seeing some crying in this thread. Yes, I am sad too every mark of nurgle unit does not have disgustingly resilient. It is great, so great in fact that after a few games I have decided for my Nurgle army to only include disgustingly resilient units.

 

With a bit more testing I am still bummed about  plague marines, and have found wow I never want to let them get into CC. Keep them with their blight launcher plus 2 flamers or 2 plasma guns. They are still soaking bolter shots like a boss, so I will reserve bringing them for when I fight necrons, scat bikes, or space marines. Which is to say every single game. I have yet to face orks so I do not know how they would fare against green tide.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Ok, so new models make up for terrible rules? I hope that the design team are listening and remember that when it's time do redesign your army.

 

Back to my only points:

1 - Plague Marines suck.

2 - The design team have demonstrated that they don't know what they are doing when it comes to the Death Guard.

3 - Neither of these facts bode well for the upcoming Death Guard codex.

[Commissar K.]

Ok, so new models make up for terrible rules? I hope that the design team are listening and remember that when it's time do redesign your army.

 

Back to my only points:

1 - Plague Marines suck.

2 - The design team have demonstrated that they don't know what they are doing when it comes to the Death Guard.

3 - Neither of these facts bode well for the upcoming Death Guard codex.

 

1. Suck compaired to what? 

2. The design team have demonstrated a very narrative removed game. This is represented throughout the Core rules and Index'. There are like what? 14 pages of narrative?

3. Look at AoS if you want to know where this is going. Blades of Khorne is a Khorne exclusive Army book, I can confirm to you that it is quite awesome.

 

What you can expect is that mono Nurgle will have benifits and units that are exclusive to it. 

[DuskRaider]

The Design Team haven't released a Death Guard codex yet.

[MoGuy]

So, why do we need a thread for this? Does this serve any purpose? Thousand Sons lost their "identity" too. Worse invuls than before, no mitigation against perils, haven't even gotten their own psychic powers even though Death Guard got unique powers, lost a lot of psychic punch with the Scarab Occult Termis (Honourguard of Magnus himself!) being only able to cast a mini-smite. 

 

But that doesn't mean that everything is bad and will stay bad even after the codices drop. I expect to see some new Deathguard units and I don't see how Plague Marines are bad. They are 12 points cheaper than a 5 man squad of Rubrics and they can take two special weapons at five guys! Shifting them from an objective should be really hard with normal weapons and if your opponent uses bigger guns he is literally shooting with anti-tank guns at your normal infantry.

[Panzer]

So much Doom&Gloom with every new post from OP. I gonna get my tearcup, brb. :D

[Plaguecaster]

Well not having dark apostles or Warpsmiths kinda sucks the fluff even says we have them (they were the ones who created the bloat drone) but for some reason we can't have them likewise with the daemon engines like maulerfiends, forgefiend sand Heldrakes. I'm not completely doom and gloom or angry just generally confused why so much stuff has been left out as I doubt we will be getting a completely new deathguard unit for everyone we don't have like fiends etc

[norngahl]

Aaaaand powergaming strikes again.

 

I don't think plague marines are bad.. they got tougher against medium strength weapons, 5+ FNP is something very rare in this edition and you got totally nice models on top. Typhus and poxis aren't bad either and you can play chaos marines if you are not convinced using the plague marine models as well.

 

Sure, you can't take this or that unit but hey, that's the price for playing a specialist legion.

 

Slaanesh players are :cussed as always and Black Legion regular chars are pretty lackluster.

 

Everyone has it's ups and downs. We are chaos at last, no marine golden boys flag ship. Supplements will come, until then, for example, my lovely converted lord will have nothing but a power sword instead of a daemon weapon.. but hey.. every army faces the same :cussty restrictions. Thats normal when you do a complete overhaul.

[dark_elf]

 

Sure, you can't take this or that unit but hey, that's the price for playing a specialist legion.

 

Slaanesh players are as always and Black Legion regular chars are pretty lackluster.

 

 

 

Slaanesh player here ;)

 

And to think this is the edition to pull me away from 30K, as I sat out of 6th and 7th.

[Seahawk]

Ok, so new models make up for terrible rules? I hope that the design team are listening and remember that when it's time do redesign your army.

 

Back to my only points:

1 - Plague Marines suck.

2 - The design team have demonstrated that they don't know what they are doing when it comes to the Death Guard.

3 - Neither of these facts bode well for the upcoming Death Guard codex.

 

1 - Pretty much proven false.

2 - These are barebones rules to get players by until the codexes come out.

3 - Given neither of your previous points are facts, and given the new GW has been so much more focused on giving the players exactly what they've been wanting for so long, this point has no value.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Cultists. 21 cultists vs 5 Plague Marines. If you can't figure out the math yourself, roll it out a few times. The Plague Marines are outclassed. By cultists. By quite a lot.

 

Now try the same thing with 5 CSM and 13 cultists. Or equal point values of the other cult Marines and cultists. The cultists are slaughtered.

[adreal]

Cultists. 21 cultists vs 5 Plague Marines. If you can't figure out the math yourself, roll it out a few times. The Plague Marines are outclassed. By cultists. By quite a lot.

 

Now try the same thing with 5 CSM and 13 cultists. Or equal point values of the other cult Marines and cultists. The cultists are slaughtered.

In combat or with shooting

Is their cover

Are there any special weapons??

 

Cause with shooting, it should come out in the death guard favour as they are harder to kill then normal marines (t5, fnp)

 

Heck even in combat the plague marines would be tougher to kill then 5 marines (which is why they cost more I guess)

 

Plague marines have the same number of attacks as bolter marines, but re roll 1's to wound, and are tougher to wound thanks to having the fnp save (though they do cost more)

 

I'm sorry but I honestly think you just see them as bad, the core rules changed so comparing them to previous editions doesn't work, they still have blight grenades, but as defensive grenades don't do anything their new option cannot be compared to their previous option.

 

I'm sorry you find plague marines lack luster, I think they are pretty cool looking models and am looking forward to playing them soon

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Or, you could actually do the math or roll it out.

 

21 cultists vs 5 Plague Marines

21 CSM vs 13 Plague Marines

21 Rubrics vs 20 Plague Marines

21 Bererkers vs 16 Plague Marines

21 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters vs 20 Plague Marines

21 Necron Warriors vs 12 Plague Marines

21 Kabite Warriors vs 7 Plague Marines

21Guardian defenders vs 8 Plague Marines

21 conscripts vs 3 Plague Marines

 

Hell, 21 poxwalkers no buffs vs 6 Plague Marines and the PMs shoot first...

 

Can anyone find an infantry unit that doesn't outclass Plague Marines point-for-point?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who w

[adreal]

No I didn't, I'm at work on my lunch break but I don't have to

 

Plague marines have t5, 3+ save and 5+ fnp

Chaos marines have t4, 3+ save

 

Every wound the cultists get though on the plague marines, there is a 33% it is ignored, against the csm, the can just dies.

 

In combat a plague marine has 1 attack, s4 re roll 1s to wound

A can has 1 attack, s4

Every roll of a 1 to wound gets a re roll for the plague marines, the csm just fail to wound

 

The cultists are wounding each on a 5+, both units get a 3+ save, only 1 of them gets another 5+ save if the 3+ fails

 

Are cultists cheaper? Yeah, so they will get more attacks, and more shots, but they also die easier as well, that's why they are cheap. Cultists are also more affected by moral, and while plague marines were not in the past, they have a better chance of passing then the cultists. That's why the plague marines cost what they do.

[Warmaster Phthisis]

Yeah, we know what the rules are.

 

But do you know who wins those fights?