Chaos vs Imperium

[Schlitzaf]

Please read whole thread before getting snarky.

 

Inspired by a thread in Lost and the Damned, as well as some discussions of Primaris. I see Chaos players often talking about what Chaos "should have" simply because the Imperium has it. As an Imperial player of various stripes, all I can ask why? If I asked for a super cool 'generic' Loyalist Daemon Prince (yes I know Mephiston, Gulliman and Celestine exist), I'd be laughed out of the room. Likewise if I asked for perhaps a Dragon shaped flier that is imbued with Emperor's divine might.

 

Maybe it's because I have always see Chaos and Imperium as Dichtomany of Magic v Technology with small overlaps. Sometimes with whole factions who share a very but different gimmick that is played out in their tech or magic. (Grey Knights equipment option vs Thousand Suns Physic Powers for example). So I am trying to ask, if Chaos becomes Imperial+ Benefits, what is the point of Imperial Armies? I do not mean to offend, but I am just curious. Wouldn't getting more cool Daemons in vein of Helldrake and other Dragonic Mecha from 6th-7th, Defilers, or more just an increased variety of Daemons in general. Be more interesting than getting something like Primaris Marines but Better?

[Shinespider]

As a rule, "confrontational and condescending" is not a great tone to set with your thread's first sentence if you're trying to have an actual conversation.

 

As to your actual question - I tend to agree with you. When chaos players complain about not having Grav weapons or Drop pods I roll my eyes a bit. Chaos equipment cannot be a superset of imperial equipment - that's bad game design and boring storytelling. New stuff, in particular, shouldn't automatically jump across sides. 

 

Primaris Marines are... a complicated case.

 

Primaris Marines aren't just a shiny new toy for the Imperium to have. They're truescale marines. They are, in many ways, what Space Marines always should have looked like. They also make regular marines looks stunty and weak by comparison.

 

The Legions of Chaos cannot be stunty and weak. If GW is serious about pushing a new Marine line, they need to cross the divide. 

[Gordon Shumway]

I really don't have a problem with the imperium keeping the numarines as a thing unto itself. It makes sense fluffwise. That said, other things don't. Like why did we toss out all of our grav, or get rid of our droppods and landspeeders? I would prefer GW, if they are going with the whole, well, stuff broke down and is hard to repair, then fine, give us all the stuff the dark mechanicus has been working on without the stupid shackles the imperium imposes. Thank god forgeworld exists.

[Schlitzaf]

As a rule, "confrontational and condescending" is not a great tone to set with your thread's first sentence if you're trying to have an actual conversation.

 

As to your actual question - I tend to agree with you. When chaos players complain about not having Grav weapons or Drop pods I roll my eyes a bit. Chaos equipment cannot be a superset of imperial equipment - that's bad game design and boring storytelling. New stuff, in particular, shouldn't automatically jump across sides. 

 

Primaris Marines are... a complicated case.

 

Primaris Marines aren't just a shiny new toy for the Imperium to have. They're truescale marines. They are, in many ways, what Space Marines always should have looked like. They also make regular marines looks stunty and weak by comparison.

 

The Legions of Chaos cannot be stunty and weak. If GW is serious about pushing a new Marine line, they need to cross the divide.

 

I legit couldn't figure out how to ask the question without sounding like I am complaining about chaos complaining.

 

Now in regards to Primaris, I mean you guys have whom looked nicely scaled next to my Primaris. (Haven't done a side by side comparison of the older sprews only the ones from Dark Vengeance). And I felt the mechanical point of Primaris was to give Marines something on par with Magical Upgrades of the Marked Chaos Space Marines (not however meant to be equivalent to cult troops. That is where non-Vanilla Marines are supposed to be roughly equivalent). Chaos is not small stunty, instead they are magically gifted and enhanced Supermen. Where Loyalist Marines were (in respect to Chaos) small and stunty. Primaris being a way to level the plaining field against Marked Chaos Marines. Also supposed to help bridge the gap (in theory) between Cult Forces and their counterparts. (If World Eaters are similar to Blood Angels. Regular BA Assault Marines are weaker than a Zerker. With an Interceptor Primaris crossing the gap). I would honestly prefer to see the 4 Align Legions get more fleshed out to be like 4 Non-Codex Marine (Suns = Knights, Children = Dark, Death = Wolves, and Eaters = BA. With the other Legions being like Vanilla Marine Dex (I suppose Red Corsairs being the Black Templars). (Not saying Chaos should be made to be exactly parallel to loyalist just as I envision Primaris role within the story).

 

Gordon, do you have some examples of some Dark Mechanicum toys you could be given?

[Sception]

First, chaos will get a version of primaris marines, whether we want them or not, because primaris marines are just an excuse for rescaling marine models in 40k generally. Look at how the new plague marines are already basically at primaris scale.

 

Second, asking for things that chaos has always had in the fluff, like drop pods or our own dark mechanicus faction, or that we actually had in game in the past, like artificier armor and master crafted weapons, hardly seems unreasonable.

 

Third, an imperial player taking a condescending attitude towards such reasonable requests feels a little bit unreasonable, or did you forget the better-than-the-chaos-version obliterators you folks got after ours got popular? Or the better-than-the-chaos-version possessed the puppies got recently? Or how gw gave loyalists and not chaos all the plastic heresy stuff, including our signature reaper autocannons (never mind that they've been bad since 3rd edition and are still bad in 8th), even though we're supposed to have more of the ancient tech? or how the 4th ed codex stole our legion rules only for loyaliat marines to get a better version of the same, a status quo then left in place for over a decade?

 

I'm sorry, this post is sounding more hostile than i intended. But i'm not inclined to humor loyalists who scoff at our requests for drop pods or the like as if they're some signature defining piece of loyalist exclusive character when the most distictive chaos units and rules have been regularly flayed from from our armies and reworked into better versions for imperial players.

[Schlitzaf]

I'm not trying to scoff, demean, dismiss, denounce or deny you anything. Let me state this question in no uncertain terms.

"If Chaos gets everything Imperium gets + Warp Toys why play Imperium? If yes why?" AND "In any case wouldn't you rather get Chaos specific toys, than Imperium ones, if so what would you want?" A follow up question "If no why not?" And dear lord please get off your podium, we are all fellow gamers here. And I lost my Codex, rolled into Codex Space Marine. So don't give me "but but GW took my toys away." All of last Edition whenever I played a game, my opponents cried about Battle Company how it was so unfair "I got free Rhinos and Razorbacks." Despite the fact I wasn't playing a damn formation in my list.

 

But yes back to that question at hand. Which I suppose, beside fluff, what is the mechanical (rules) identity for Chaos Armies? How is it distinct from the Imperium? How does said Distinctiveness be allowed to shine through if Loyalist and Chaos have the same unit, weapons and vehicle options?

[Gordon Shumway]

Fluffwise, I always got the sense that CSM was supposed to be mostly elite super soldiers that became more elite for having lived 10,000 years developing dark science and being corrupted by the warp. On the tabletop, I suppose this would sort have looked like a mix of mechanicus and Grey Knights. Of course what GW actually did was just take standard space marines and put spikes on them and made them forget how to fix droppods, and such. And then take all the unique things Chaos did have and give it to the imperium (as malisteen pointed out above) In other words, the blame for some CSM players wanting the stuff the imperium has lands at the feet of GW for not really giving chaos a distinctive flavor in the first place. (Well, they had it in 3.5, but not since 4th really).

[Sception]

You're conflating chaos marine players asking for specific things that they used to have in the game, or still have in the fluff, with asking for 'everything imperials get and more'.  As if we ever get anything imperials get that isn't just an objectively worse version of something we never asked for (ie, the worse-chaplains we got back in 6e).  And most especially, as if imperials aren't continually getting better versions of distinctive chaos stuff like obliterators and possessed, let alone eating entire thematic hooks of our faction, like legion rules or heresy-era kit.  Instead of asking chaos marine players how we have the audacity to ask for drop pods when every major chaos marine invasion in the narrative since the dawn of fluff has always been launched via drop pods, why don't you go onto the marine boards and ask anyone who ever fielded centurions why they thought it was ok that they get better obliterators when those were supposed to be a unique chaos unit.

 

Imperials get versions of stuff that used to be chaos only all the time, but when we ask for something that's always been part of our fluff, we're being the unreasonable ones.  I've got no patience for it.

[dark_elf]

 

Imperials get versions of stuff that used to be chaos only all the time, but when we ask for something that's always been part of our fluff, we're being the unreasonable ones.  I've got no patience for it.

 

This.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

Imperials get versions of stuff that used to be chaos only all the time, but when we ask for something that's always been part of our fluff, we're being the unreasonable ones.  I've got no patience for it.

 

This.

 

 

Hear, hear!

[Schlitzaf]

I give up. Because I didn't say any of that. I mentioned Primaris and Helldrakes. Not Chapter Tactics. I mentioned Suns Physic and Magical Abilities vs Knight Phsyic and technology. Not Jokero and Obliterators. I asked about Deamons vs Technology. Not Wulfen vs Possessed. I talked about what is Chaos is on the Tabletop not your of deployment options (which does tie into mechanical play style). So I have the audacity? I have the audacity? To ask why Chaos should be given Primaris? I dared. I dare to believe my fellow gamers, weren't arrogant, to believe I could ask why? You know maybe my opening post sounded presumptuous to which I apologized in my second post. But your right I dared, to step into a community I have not interacted with except in general threads and sometimes specific threads and in real life. I dared. I dared to ask ultimately a simple question "What defines Chaos on the tabletop?" What makes certain things flavorful.

 

Your right I had an audacity. The audacity to put myself out there. To try and understand my gamers. To believe members of a community I find wonderful, could stomach a loyalist whom honestly doesn't understand. I dared. You know what? I came in here believing you should have drop pods, you should have better Possessed, you should have legion specific troops, legion specific codexss and bar that atleast legion tactics. Because if their is enough deviance from Codex chapters for Dark Angels and Blood Angels their should be Codexes for Deathgaurd and World Eaters. Now? You convinced me you shouldn't. For entirely unwarrented reasons. You wanted to assign characteristics I don't have. You demonized me because I wished to know why. To me Chaos getting Stormbolters, Storm Ravens and Primaris sounded like a diffusion of their identity to Marines with spiky bits. But no, but I clearly think you shouldn't get good non insane dreadnoughts, terrifying possessed, infiltrating Chosen for Alpha Legion. If you wish to continue this conversation PM me.

[Lord Abaia]

I legit couldn't figure out how to ask the question without sounding like I am complaining about chaos complaining.

It probably sounds like you're complaining about chaos complaining because that's what you're doing.

 

Now in regards to Primaris, I mean you guys have whom looked nicely scaled next to my Primaris. (Haven't done a side by side comparison of the older sprues only the ones from Dark Vengeance).

Clearly not. The current CSM kit is not holding up well and looks down right silly next to an intercessor.

 

And I felt the mechanical point of Primaris was to give Marines something on par with Magical Upgrades of the Marked Chaos Space Marines (not however meant to be equivalent to cult troops. That is where non-Vanilla Marines are supposed to be roughly equivalent). Chaos is not small stunty, instead they are magically gifted and enhanced Supermen.

There currently are no "marked" CSM. Marks are currently only a keyword with no attached gameplay mechanics. Why would you need Primaris Marines to be on par with that? I'd recommend actually looking at the rules.

 

Where Loyalist Marines were (in respect to Chaos) small and stunty.

Are Dark Vengeance marines and the new Death Guard the only CSM infantry models you've ever seen?

 

Primaris being a way to level the plaining field against Marked Chaos Marines. Also supposed to help bridge the gap (in theory) between Cult Forces and their counterparts. (If World Eaters are similar to Blood Angels. Regular BA Assault Marines are weaker than a Zerker. With an Interceptor Primaris crossing the gap). I would honestly prefer to see the 4 Align Legions get more fleshed out to be like 4 Non-Codex Marine (Sons = Knights, Children = Dark, Death = Wolves, and Eaters = BA. With the other Legions being like Vanilla Marine Dex (I suppose Red Corsairs being the Black Templars).

What? I get the superficial comparisons between Thousand Sons and Grey Knights, and between Blood Angels and World Eaters but that's all.

 

(Not saying Chaos should be made to be exactly parallel to loyalist just as I envision Primaris role within the story).

Well obviously not you made this thread to chastise us for having the audacity to suggest that there be parallels between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines.

 

I'm not sure you know what you are talking about, friend. And I don't think it was necessary to come here and make this thread. In fact if I were a more cynical person I'd say this was a weak attempt at baiting the board, but I honestly just think you're unfamiliar with Chaos's rules and lore. That's okay.

 

Enjoy your new Primaris Terror Squads you guys got before the Night Lords.

[Goreshed]

Schlitzaf if you wished for your question to be "What defines Chaos on the tabletop?" then perhaps you should have opened the thread with that. Instead you opened the can of worms. And now everyone is triggered and I'm surprised the memes haven't started to fly because after all it is the internet.

 

You cannot simply pick one aspect and compare it to another part, you have to take into the whole what the Chaos faction is and what GW has and has not done to it over the years. A lot of people have piled high their salt mountains because they love the faction even when it gets constantly kicked by GW, be it in the form of lack luster rules (when Chaos has sooo many options fluff wise to justify something) or model wise (when we have so much of our line that is old and outdated).

 

Chaos players aren't asking for what the Imperium has plus spikes, we are asking for GW to use the creative juices that gave us Chaos in the first place and make us different than Marines and not have Marines get the same things we get because they found some template somewhere from the Heresy era and now they have some new un-spikey version of what Chaos has (because they had it all along it was just in a vault some where...).

 

Table top wise we have always been a mid to close range army, our strength was never a long range fire fight in compared to what Marines/IG/Tau can do. But for the past few edition we have been forced into the mid to long range fighting because close combat just wasn't worth it in many cases. Now with this new edition we have a deadly combat phase and everyone is trying to figure their army out again that they haven't been able to really play for the past 5 editions.

 

So you are right, there are many of us who are salty here and who get touchy over this subject but perhaps if you had worded your questions differently from the start you would have gotten a completely different and more constructive series of answers to your questions.

[Sception]

your first post was entirely generalities, and a repeat of arguments used whenever CSM players ask for things they should always have had to begin with.

 

If you wanted to talk exclusively about primaris marines, you should have explicitly talked about that, but even then I answered that in my very first reply.

 

It doesn't matter whether we want primaris marines or not (and many of us don't), we're going to be getting them anyway, because primaris marines are just an excuse to increase the scale of marine models in 40k generally.  In a few years time, "primaris" marines will be the only marine models still sold, and the fluff of primaris marines being in any way special or different will be quitely sidelined.  Not retconned away, but left to be forgotten in a corner, and space marines will just be space marines, only in true scale.

 

While chaos marines might lag behind loyalist releases a bit, as we always do, we won't be left behind altogether.  Again, look at the new plague marines - Chaos primaris models are already here.  How GW chooses to justify this remains to be seen.  Maybe, like the plague marines, whenever we get new models they'll just be head-and-shoulders bigger than before without any fluff justifications.  Or maybe we'll get an in universe explanation equivalent to the loyalists primaris fluff.  Like, maybe Fabius Bile will finally perfect his nu men, and Abaddon will sell the technology to the other legions in exchange for them remembering that they were supposed to sac Terra before splitting off into a dozen splinter factions each trying to carve out their own personal empire.

 

And, by the way, Fabious Bile was was already explicitly working on his new, improved, bigger and better version of space marines in the fluff decades before belesarius-ex-machina was ever thought up, so frankly I could easily argue that the entire concept of primaris marines is yet another case of GW stealing chaos marine concepts in order to give them to imperial players!

 

Not that any of that matters.  Regardless of what they're called or what justifications are offered for them, regardless of whether we even want them, chaos primaris are coming.  They're not even something that chaos players have been agitating for, unlike the drop pods and legion rules we've been asking for for years, so I don't even know what got you all twisted up about it that you had to roll in here and call us out like some ill informed inquisitor on a doomed crusade into the Eye.

[bozo69pd]

Schlitzaf at first you basically stated that CSM players want everything LSM players have, so we simply objected that the same actually happens for LSM players. Both sides actually whine and argue alot.

 

I think the reason many CSM players want better technological options is because some Warbands/Legions are not so demonic and more like a pirates. They want to have some non demonic options. Personally I want nothing to do with Grav or Primaris. I would like to have a regular drop pod though because every Chaos book has CSM using them, and I think kharadybiss or whatever is stupid.

[Trevak Dal]

If daemon engines weren't ws and bs 4+ (5+ bs if they moved) people probably wouldn't feel as much like they got screwed.

 

The consensus that many chaos players wanted was legions and "legion tactics" but as we saw what seemed like all the good ideas going down the 30k toilet, while the Warband narrative was being shoved down our throats all the while loyalists got their "we get to ignore the moral phase and not be penalized in any way" rule, and got Better Obliterators (Centurions), grav weapons which messed up everything, Eternal Warrior handed out like Oprah with cars, better possessed (wulfen) and our guys being more codex compliant than any loyalist army (Astral Claws can take units of 20 marines and have 4 specials, and then combat squad down into 4 teams of 5), it gets a little tiresome when you guys get Super Space Marines from being the faction that is piss scared of innovation and discovery while we got a faction that broke away from the Mechanicus because they wanted to invent stuff.

 

I might be wrong. *Shrugs*

[Khornestar]

I am certainly vocal about this issue when it comes to renegade guard, but my issues are applicable for Imperium vs. chaos equivalents of various sorts.

 

There are tons of units, especially those related to the "divine" aspects of the Emperor or the logistics/law enforcement/etc. of the Imperium that have absolutely no place in a chaos army, as far as most of us are concerned. Then you have new technology that the Imperial soup has developed that would make less sense for a chaos army to have, unless they recently went renegade or looted slain loyalists. Even that is mostly not what we're talking about, though it potentially would have a place in a chaos army, perhaps at the expense of more daemonic elements in the army that take time to develop or learn how to interact with.

 

How do you "do it right"? Look at the Forge World chaos book. There are units that all Legions had access to since before the heresy, and in this edition they recognized that not only by allowing us to take them (and buy them, and thus the company makes more money), but they have rules that distinguish them from the loyalists. Not every unit, but enough of them that we can appreciate the heritage of the faction and also not feel deliberately gimped on the tabletop compared to loyalists. This amazing labor of warp-touched love won a lot of my respect for the FW design team, only to disappoint me with the Astra Militarum book.

 

Granted, it would be lame and also boring if we got a copy and paste of the Imperial sections of the army, parent codex included. Instead, let me just talk about things like mass-produced vehicles, unit upgrade options, and the overall feel of the army as represented by special rules that may or may not exist at all. Take the Valkyrie and variants, for example. You're telling me renegade forces can build, use, and maintain Valkyries, but they're entirely incapable of swapping the munitions out for twin lascannons, a weapon our faction has no problem fitting onto other vehicles? Or punishers, which we can mount on a Leman Russ but not a Valkyrie? What about our infantry, who can arm one in 10 cultists with a flamer, but an "elite" infantry unit can only take one special weapon. Why? We know those weapons aren't rare or hard to produce at all. Is it overpowered for loyalist Guard to have veterans with good ballistic skill and multiple special weapons? No, so what gives? What about orders? Do the mortal forces of chaos as represented by militias and militaries not conform to a command hierarchy? They do, clearly they do. Why are they not giving orders? Does everyone just run around like madmen, shooting at whatever enters their crosshairs? Even if the rules aren't represented with the exact same mechanics and effects, there isn't even an "evil" equivalent. A rules mechanic sorta crucial to the Guard army is just absent. Covenants are a very cheap substitute.

 

Okay, a potential white elephant is the issue of GW not giving rules for units without models, right? I can dig that, except when there are units like special weapons squads for loyalists that don't have a kit, yet they are sold. Okay, you can use existing kits - maybe it will take 2 or 3 boxes - but they exist, and therefore the unit is possible to represent. The discrepancies here become frustrating, let alone for units that only really need to be painted a different scheme to be "evil." If renegade player Bob wanted to give FW his money in exchange for an Arkurian Pattern Stormblade (or whatever) because he wanted to play with it, but doesn't want to play loyalists, now he won't, and the company just lost the easiest money ever because of short-sighted rules writing. The product already exists, the inventory is there, the customer is just waiting with cash in his hand! I thought businesses like money. I'm only being semi-sarcastic. And my big question is, what's the down side to letting him buy and use that Stormblade? Neither the balance of the game nor the flavor of the faction would be negatively affected.

 

And since FW mostly copied and pasted rules and unit entries from the previous editions, why did they mostly cut stuff out and not really add much? Were renegade macharius tanks just too OP? Were power-weapon-toting marauders too powerful in 7th, so now snatching them away makes sense? Hint: no, they :cuss weren't.

 

If you've read this far, then I appreciate it. I am usually one to chide others for whining about the game, so I fully admit my hypocrisy here. The game is the way it is, and we have to make do with what we have. I'm not gonna quit or burn my minis, but in an era where both GW and FW really seemed to "get it," this army list just baffles the :cuss out of me.

 

I think that's enough, but I'd be very hard to convince that I'm wrong on this. I'd be interested in hearing opposing points of view, in case I'm just missing things that are totally obvious, but I've clearly dedicated way too much thought to this. :P

[Plaguecaster]

Well to be fair we had Primaris marines both in fluff (note I only mean as having marines superior to lesser marines in both Toughness and strength which Primaris marines are described as) and to a lesser extent gmewise through Fabius Bile's who has been creating a stronger marines to mimic the Primarchssince the Heresy (which Cawl apparently did as well) but of course we chaos players are selfish and demanding jerks who just throw tantrums wanting having everything loyalist have even though it is part of our fluff. You want loyalist style helldrakes fine but don't pull a typical jerk move by designing a far superior version that leaves the original in the dust because it's "loyalist" so deserves to be better excatly like the far superior "completely NOT Obliterators" that are Centurions which do a far better job than both mutilators and obliterators OR the far superior "completely NOT possessed " which are Wulfen or marines on juggernaut style thunder wolves the lists go one.

 

Besides most chaos players are not asking for a far superior copy and paste unit for our faction since it's unfair we don't have it, I mean we are not Loyalists after all ;) instead we are simply asking that GW takes in consideration that we should have a unit that fulfils an equivalent role or a relatively good loyalist unit like I don't know making possessed actually stronger to suit their fluff which is normal marines becoming far stronger than their lesser brethren because they embraced the warp like the Gal Vorbak in the Heresy series so they are bigger, stronger and have more wounds than the normal marines just like how Primaris are far superior than normal marines

Is not that hard to understand if anything it comes off childish as it's perfectly fine loyalists getting the special toys but when it's the other way around it's unfair

[Trevak Dal]

Yeah a friend of mine who is die hard for 7th, keeps trying to keep me playing, and that Primaris Marines could be brought over to 7th easily (not something I really want to play that much) to which I insisted I'd be okay with if we could port over the Khorne Berserker statline with 7th rules, and new Tau stealth suits and crisis suits (with their 8" move base plus jump shoot jump-as Ackbar says "it's a trap")

 

And we had pages long text discussion on how "overpowered" s5 base a2 base ws5 with rage, counterattack and furious charge at 16 points per model khorne Berserkers are and how "no unit in the game fits the fluff exactly" which I pointed out that 30k, space wolves, Tau and Eldar did it pretty close.

 

We agreed to disagree.

[DuskRaider]

Technically speaking, Chaos should have MORE technology than the Imperium, seeing as not only did they not lose their inquisitive mind for improvement, but also began incorporating Xeno tech as far back as the Heresy (even earlier in some cases). I think the FW Chaos Index alleviates it to an extent with all of the Hellforged goodies that we can take (and aren't restricted by, unlike our Loyalist counterparts), but I do believe there should be more Heresy-era tech represented in the Chaos codex.

 

Volkites, for example, should be available to the Legions. The other issue is due to the Warp being the uh... Warp... there are war bands, Chapters and so on that have only experienced a decade's worth of time lapse over the last 10 millennia (while on the flipside some have experienced, say, 100,000 years). In these cases, there doesn't need to be a Dark Mechanicum inventing or re-inventing stuff, they literally still have the equipment they left Terra with. 

 

Yes, there does need to be some variety and differences. I don't think Chaos needs Landspeeders or what have you, but something as simple as Martian tech or even hybrid-Xenos weaponry (NOT ORK) would be cool. 

[Schlitzaf]

Now that I calmed down a bit, I want to stress I am apologize, for my poor choice of wording. But I want to point out, Wulfen are Wolf only. Centurions I do not personally consider comparable to Obliterators unless Oblits got changed sense 4/5th Edition with flexible/changing weapons mid battle (that said I haven't played the tabletop during 6th-7th, and came back because 8th is awesome). And in regards to the Marks, yes I know Marks currently do not do anything (well atleast for CSM, they do things for Chaos Daemons, Daemons aren't really marked but going on), beside enabling an Icon and enabling you to summon yours Gods Daemons. Personally in regards to Helldrake, I just adore the model, and if we got it I would want it be a flying Redeemer. But that stated, it should not be better than the Helldrake.

 

In regards to Fabius, I am annoyed/angry his rules are not like a 5th Ed chapter tactics style. So I'm with you there, he should give better and more reliable buffs. Also to explain the comparison I made earlier. Suns and Knights, Eaters and Blood, are obvious the other two, are because Children and Dark are known for their nominally specialized advanced weaponry (unless 6th-7th changed Dark Angel lore), Sonic vs Plasma, Deathgaurd vs Wolves is because both are midrange fire fight with double specials and equally good on offense and defense. Templars and Red Corsair being something beside first 10 legions that get a large amount of support in comparison.

 

Renegades for example are an army which should be divided into two clean lists. Militia and "Organized" for lack of a better word, (And in general I'd like to say Renegade vs Warbands, better defined). Militia should be limited, and reliant upon magic in form physics or mass troops with mid-close range based fighting (Also Renegade list when I checked yesterday can take two specials where Guard squads can take 0). Organized should be more like AM as been described before, and have 'order' equivalent. (Sense lacking Orders for Militia I understood to demonstrate lack of discipline, but 'Organized' should have something because they are disciplined). But I think part of the issue at hand here, is some of your complaints is because I skipped 6th-7th so I don't know about the creeping that happened (Centurions in particular). But to answer Jugger questions, I don't mind giving basic loyalist toys to chaos. But I have lines, these lines are mostly 5th ed onward additions to C:SM and the LRC (that weren't originally Forged World and ported to the Codex). I would rather instead of giving Chaos the Storm Raven, for you to get something like the Helldrake.

 

Instead of Thunderfires, either better summonable Daemons or fighting 'artillery' units. Basically a Dreadnought with a Demolisher like a Forgefiend, Maulerfiend and Defiler. That as an aside is my biggest issue with Primaris is how legion-like they are in terms of equipment (hello Hellblasters). Sense Chaos should emulate that more, by having squads of universal 'special' weaponry especially for the more organized Legions. Or Chaos Units should be able to transition more fluidly between battlefield roles in comparison to loyalist marines following the Codex. They should have more 'possessed' Vehicles compared to limited number of PotMS Loyalist tanks. To represent fluidity of movement better. Also Daemons vehicles should be permanent BS 4+ regardless if they move or not.

 

Maybe I am completely off base, but I would like Magic vs Technology duality of Chaos vs Imperial highlighted better, but also now that I think about it Fluidity vs Regimentation. So on the Vendetta question, I'd rather a "Chaos Gunship" using the Valkayrie chassis, but instead of triple lascannon, instead have double lascannon + anti-infantry weaponry for Warband level chaos (this is for sake of example. Not saying Chaos shouldn't just have Vendetta). Or having ability to shoot big guns in close combat at -1. I dunno. Instead of getting a Vendetta, make it different but same to loyalist in subtle ways that encourage dual purpose or highlights how Chaos 'magic' allows it equalize itself to new Imperial technology.

[Sception]

Centurions are double-fat terminatoresque 3 man infantry heavy support shooty units.  They are obliterators in everything but name and the fact that yours get better rules and, well, not better models, but at least plastic ones.  They are as much 'loyalist obliterators' as warpsmiths are 'chaos tech marines'.

 

As for Bile, I actually don't mind biles current rules.  picking out a unit at a time for a buff that lasts the rest of the match is kind of cool.  Heck, I don't mind our 8e rules overall, with a few exceptions (the FW R&H rules were an ill cenceived rush job, the new obliterator rules are garbage, there is zero reason for CSMs to be left with only regular power weapons and not master crafted - or even full on daemon weapons considering loyalists still get their relic blades, etc).  The point wasn't that bile is bad, the point was that bile provides an excuse for a chaos version of primaris marines that is better established in the 40k narrative than the fluff for primaris marines themselves.

 

as for heretics vs. renegades, warbands vs. companies, cults vs legions, and whatever general game play and thematic niche is supposed to uniquely belong to CSMs when our portrayal has never been consistently any of those things, and when loyalists already have shooty marines, assaulty marines, mechanical marines, fast marines, all-termy marines, all-bike marines (2 types!), all jump marines, sinister marines, barbarian marines, big blob infantry marines, new gear marines, antique gear marines, psyker marines, vampire marines, werewolf marines, ghost marines, and marines that sacrifice innocent imperial citizens so they can bathe in their blood to gain dark magical powers...  well, there's really no answer to that.  Honestly, I think chaos marines shouldn't be forced to live only on the non-existent patches of conceptual space that loyalists haven't already filled twice or thrice over.

[Schlitzaf]

Werewolf, Vampire, and Ghost are themetic lore not gameplay. If you want to make that same argument, I could say Chaos "Disease Spreading Marines, Robot Ghost Marines, Rock & Roll Marines, Barbarian Marines", oh and now in 8th, you can take full biker, assault marine, blob Marines, and terminator armies due to the new Detachment system. Additionally get Vanilla Chaos Marines are or were better than Tactical Marines for a good long time due to double special and able to go BP&CCW. And Grey Hunters creeped all marine armies.

[Sception]

Lore relates to mechanics.  Both combine in carving out conceptual niches, and even in your examples of conceptual themes you've already assigned something to chaos that loyalists already do, so again worrying about chaos marines having distinct thematic or mechanical niches from loyalist marines is already just not going to work, so why bother trying?  Just let chaos be chaos, without worrying about whether they're stepping on imperial toes along the way.  As for what 'chaos being chaos' means, well, again, that's not easy to pin down, because GW has been frustratingly inconsistent on the subject.  Oh, I could blather on about how I personally see them, but that's neither here nor there, just one players headcanons among thousands, insignificant, but I will say that as long as nearly every CSM invasion in the fluff is heralded by a rain of drop pods, as is and always has been the case, it will remain both ridiculous and unacceptable that they're treated as special, loyalist-defining tech in the game rules.

 

Otherwise, I'm confused at the comment of CSM vanilla marines being better than loyalist versions.  Basic chaos marines haven't been better than tacticals since 3.5, and that book was taken behind the shed and and shot over a decade ago.  ATSKNF / chapter tactics / combat squads / split squads / better transports > marks or icons that cost extra / dual specials for 10 man squads that can't split / chain swords that either replace bolters or cost extra.  And while I like basic CSM squads better in 8th, all of that apart from chapter tactics remains true in the new rules.

[Schlitzaf]

Tacticals didn't become good until 6th/7th Edition. The 3rd/4th of C:SM Tacticals were just bad because they couldn't Combat Squad suffered from role confusion, and famed 5 Man Las/Plas were only way Tacticals were even used. That said even then traits of the 3rd/4th Dex were often about about replacing them outright or changing them entirely. And even in 5th Ed, Tacticals were terrible because you had to take 10 Men for Heavy/Special. And even then the chapter tactics of the 5th Ed Deck rarely helped Tacticals in any reasonable fashion. So what? Tacticals in 4th to 5th Edition were just worse than CSM vanilla Chaos Marines