Chaos vs Imperium

[the jeske]

I'm not trying to scoff, demean, dismiss, denounce or deny you anything. Let me state this question in no uncertain terms.

"If Chaos gets everything Imperium gets + Warp Toys why play Imperium? If yes why?" AND "In any case wouldn't you rather get Chaos specific toys, than Imperium ones, if so what would you want?" A follow up question "If no why not?" And dear lord please get off your podium, we are all fellow gamers here. And I lost my Codex, rolled into Codex Space Marine. So don't give me "but but GW took my toys away." All of last Edition whenever I played a game, my opponents cried about Battle Company how it was so unfair "I got free Rhinos and Razorbacks." Despite the fact I wasn't playing a damn formation in my list.

 

But yes back to that question at hand. Which I suppose, beside fluff, what is the mechanical (rules) identity for Chaos Armies? How is it distinct from the Imperium? How does said Distinctiveness be allowed to shine through if Loyalist and Chaos have the same unit, weapons and vehicle options?

But you could have played a company. Our rules were taken from us in 4th ed with the gav dex, and then we kept getting bad codex after bad codex. yes you get your codex rolled in to marines, but crusaders were still there, all your specials were still there and you could, if you wanted, to use the marine stuff. You know what an AL player could do with his army after Gav dex came or an EC player? buy some plague marines and oblits. There is absolutly nothing to compare here, both in how much stuff was taken away, how much "chaos" stuff marines/imperials got and for how long chaos stuff was realy realy bad. Ah and lets not forget that when GW decided to band aid csm with Legion book, it was legal for about 6 months.

 

Right now the mechanical stuff of chaos being different from Imperials is chaos having fewer options[as in number of models/units/combinations]. Loyalists can build every build [specially meq based] chaos can build, while vice versa is not possible. If you want to read about how it looked in the past read any forum entry about chaos and start of 5/6/7th ed.

 

fluff wise, chaos shouldn't have very few things imperials do have. They shouldn't have the new tech marines got in the last 100+years. there are no chaos primaris and salvage of primaris/cawl gear does not warrent chaos to use the gear. everything else, specially the old stuff is something that we do have in the fluff. [pods, old style suits of terminator armor.

 

 

So what? Tacticals in 4th to 5th Edition were just worse than CSM vanilla Chaos Marines

 

dude. worse 3-5th were my prime years of tournament play. If you think that tac marines were bad for marines in 4th ed, then I do not know what to talk about here. the fact that your minimax was auto ralling itself because of atknf was huge. and last plas were exactly the thing you needed to support your AC carrying units and fullfill the mandatory troops.

[Schlitzaf]

I hope to Emperor they were better players considering one of my regular opponent has won NOVA with his wolves twice back in 5th Edition. Chaos Vanilla Marine had BP+CCW and Two Special Weapons, in their 4th Dex at 5 Man MSU which is far better than 5th Ed Marine book Tacticals. Also Icon of Chaos Glory rerollable LD 10, especially in the tail end of 4th Edition before 5th Edition turn over was nothing to be scoffed at.

[Scammel]

I hope to Emperor they were better players considering one of my regular opponent has won NOVA with his wolves twice back in 5th Edition. Chaos Vanilla Marine had BP+CCW and Two Special Weapons, in their 4th Dex at 5 Man MSU which is far better than 5th Ed Marine book Tacticals. Also Icon of Chaos Glory rerollable LD 10, especially in the tail end of 4th Edition before 5th Edition turn over was nothing to be scoffed at.

They had two specials at 10 men. I think it's a little odd to even be discussing basic CSM in the context of 4th and 5th, because Plague Marines clearly blew them out of the water.

[Sception]

Since the 4th ed codex they only had one special at 5 man, they needed 10 for the second.  They also cost extra for their bolter/BP/CCW, which really wasn't worth it because they didn't want to be in melee due to their leadership issues and couldn't get there if they wanted due to their delivery issues.  In 6th, they had the choice of either bolter or CCW or paying extra for both, and the optimal kit for them was always just the bolter - the CCW wasn't worth paying extra for, and the added melee ability of BP/CCW was never worth taking over the bolter, because, again, CSMs had neither the leadership to risk them in close combat nor the delivery options to reliably go there even if they wanted to.

 

Optimal CSMs since 4th have been:

 

1) don't run them at all, run cultists instead, they're also lousy but at least they're cheap

 

2) if you do run them, run MSU with a special plus maybe a combi special on the champ and put them in a rhino, and loyalists could do the exact same thing only with ATSKNF, chapter tactics, razorbacks, etc.

 

 

basic CSMs haven't been good since they lost vet skills.  They're better in 8th, but still probably not as good as tacticals, and that's even before you consider that loyalists will probably be getting their legion rules first.  Unless primaris get a separate codex from regular marines, in which case we might both be waiting a while for subfaction rules.

[Schlitzaf]

Scout Marine also blew Tacticals out of the water. So clearly we should be comparing Scouts and Plague Marines instead of Tacticals and Vanilla Chaos Marines. But it was because we got off an tangent about chapter tactics, CSM vs Tacticals and I said Vanilla Chaos Marines > Vanilla Tactical Marines until Vanilla Marines 6th Edition book applied/used tactics for Tacticals in a more beneficial and useful manner. Also whomever said "well I could take a Battle Company...." I stare at the. Because Tacticals are not Crusader Squads. So I could not and would refuse to do so.

[Sception]

I'll agree that plagues were better than tacticals under the 4e and 5e rules, and considering your mention of dual specials in 5 man squads you were probably thinking of plague marines and not basic chaos marines this entire time.  Plagues were better than Scouts, too, though, as you say, that's a bit off topic.  Especially since plague marines were and are thematically, if not mechanically, limited in a way that scounts aren't.  Every marine chapter has scouts.  Only Death Guard, Black Legion, and nurgle-leaning independent factions use plague marines.  Even if mechanically allowed (as they were in the 4e book that just made all four cult units troops regardless of your commander), the majority of CSM subfactions, and thus the majority of CSM players, don't have or use plague marines.

 

Pointing at plagues and saying 'chaos marines are good' would be like someone pointing at grey hunters and talking about how great tac squads were.  They're not the same thing, and are kind of limited to a narrow subset of players.

[Schlitzaf]

Grey Knights and Space Wolved stare at you Mali. But back to the topic at hand. Sense Legion Rules vs Chapter Tactics were brought up. And Marks. Also cause Chaos Glory reminded me. In terms of chaos, my favorite Chaos sub-division has always been Renegade Undivided or Alpha Legion. (Fell in love with Alpha Legion due to Arkos in Siege of Vraks 1). And in this Edition am angry you cannot take generic undivided princes or furies. I mentioned a lot of Daemon Engines as a point of contrast. But how would Chaos Undivided be allowed to take these? If the clear point of distinction between Loyalist and Chaos for sake of argument is Daemon influence vs New Technology

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

I'm going to close this topic for a bit of time so I can properly check this & also to let thing settle down a bit after removing a few post.