"Melee is more deadly than ever" and the loss of melee power

[AlmightyWalrus]

In the lead-up to the release of 8th GW claimed that melee armies were going to get some rather nice buffs, stating that in 8th "melee is more deadly than ever". While this seems to have panned out for 'Nids, Orks, and Chaos (just look at Khorne Berzerkers!), most of the melee units available to us Templars stayed the same or got worse. While we now hit on 3+in close combat and don't have to remove models from the front, the loss of extra attacks with power weapons from having a pistol and the loss of bonus attacks on the charge has left Honour Guard crippled (2 attacks on the charge instead of 5 with the banner!), TH/SS Terminators weakened (2 attacks instead of 3 on the charge, and not even hitting on 3+), and hidden Power Weapons in Crusader Squads weakened (1 attack base instead of 2).

 

It is thus my belief that the only melee units we have that actually got somewhat improved in 7th are those that rely on chainsword attacks; Crusader Squads, Assault Squads, and (to an extent) Vanguard choppy Sword Brethren. The question is, can a working melee list be built around this core or not ("working" here being a list that doesn't auto-fold against decent competition)? With our excellent Characters the power of massed chainswords can be improved rather substantially, turning Crusaders into Berzerkers-lite (rerolls to hit, S5 or extra hits on 6's but less attacks and no extra CC phase), but is this going to be enough going up against something like a swarm of Genestealers or a bunch of teleporting Boyz?

 

Finally, how would such a list deal with high-toughness melee units? We'd obviously have to take a bunch of fire support (lascannon devestators look pretty nice, as does our old staple  from 4th, the Venerable Dreadnought with TLLC/ML) to soften things up, but how do we deal with things like Tervigons or, worse yet, Knights in a melee-centric list?

 

I hope my little rant makes some sort of sense, but I can't shake the feeling that we've been left off the melee hype train for yet another edition, at least until we get a new book.

Edited June 26, 2017 by AlmightyWalrus

[Machine God]

Yes but if you have a pistol you can shoot it in melee.

[CantusMaximGloria]

Vanguard vets aren't a bad option with either a hammer or fist and storm shield to keep your investment alive. I had a veteran sergeant with a TH/SS combo and two veterans with Fist/SS combo wreck a wraithlord, three remaining wraith guard, and a half dead tank in one game. So I'd say vanguard vets are decent for t8 and below targets that aren't going to dump mortal wounds on them.

Additionally bring chaplains for cheap rerolls in the fight phase making your various power weapons more reliable when swinging. Chaplains aren't a slouch in melee either so they can jump in to get up close and personal with the enemy of man.

I believe that our crusaders can do their jobs quite well, we just lost a bit of our jack of all trades aspect so we can't just load up on the old staples and drown people in dice. That will probably change once the codex proper is out though.

[Halandaar]

Don't forget your pistols firing into melee in the Shooting Phase; that will make up your lost S4 attack from dual-wielding on your basic guys, and and makes it a lot more worthwhile taking Plasma Pistols than it was before.

 

Also consider that your Power Weapons cost 1/3 what they did before, so take more!

[+Chaplain Matthias+]

OK so I'm a total newb and I'm trying to understand pistols.

 

So let's say its now my turn 2 and my crusaders have been locked in combat since turn 1. In the shooting phase of turn 2 I can fire my pistols and then in the fight phase I can still get two attacks with my chainswords? And it works for plasma pistols and grav pistols etc?

[Marshal Wolfhart]

OK so I'm a total newb and I'm trying to understand pistols.

 

So let's say its now my turn 2 and my crusaders have been locked in combat since turn 1. In the shooting phase of turn 2 I can fire my pistols and then in the fight phase I can still get two attacks with my chainswords? And it works for plasma pistols and grav pistols etc?

 

Yup. You can only shoot pistols at the closest enemy unit though, when engaged.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I'm actually contemplating getting Plasma Pistols for my Sword Brothers now since Plasma can do the Overcharge thing that deals multiple damage per wound... that's also what makes Grimaldus terrifying, since he has a Plasma Pistol and a Crozius and all his bonus rules for (imho) cheap points... making him almost an auto-pick for every massed infantry army... also, if you want a melee heavy list, try to get more Dreadnoughts in the mix... they're no slouch and while they do cost in points, they have a significant amount of wounds, heavy toughness and those Frag Assault Launchers on the Ironclad deal mortal wounds... just a thought...

 

Terminators, while they got their Wounds reduced, also got an increase in Wounds, making them literally walking tanks... I ran a squad against 40 Ork Boyz from different squads, and lost all in 3 turns... that's a lot better than 7th where I would lose all of them in a turn... but only 2 Orks remained when they won against the Terminators, and those Lightning Claws paid back their points in spades... I'd take that over 35 ppm of dead-meat in 1 turn...

 

The only one where I feel the loss of attacks though is with the Power Weapon Crusader Squad... one power weapon attack is worth it's points I guess... the cost isn't too bad, and you could just consider it like a Grenade attack that you could do against infantry in CC....

[Kilamandaros]

Most armies suffer from the lack of attacks issue. Even orks and nids with all the buffs from 30 strong squads, special characters, psychic powers etc. are still only just scraping the amount of attacks they had in 7th, it just seems like more compared to our Crusader squads etc. and as soon as they drop below 20 or lose their buff characters (*cough Vindicare) they become a lot less scary.

 

Power swords should have had an extra attack, I would have been happy with them being an extra few points even to get that attack. As it stands they are almost never worth taking over chainswords I don't think. I like thunder Hammers on sword brothers as they're the same cost as a fist and guarantee you 3 wounds, other than that it's just chainswords for me.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

As i understand we could add a ministorum priest for extra attack? (don't have the index so i'm skeptical off the internet ;))

On another note, are there any landmarks when proper codices are expected to be released?

[Ebon Hand]

I'm thinking that where you normally would have had just a power weapon and bolt pistol, you should now be taking a power weapon and plasma pistol. Both come out to 1 point more than a marine in their respective editions, and in this edition once you factor in shooting in close combat, the 8th edition version is generally superior.

 

The difference is that chainsword and bolt pistol and power weapon bolt pistol are still viable as cheap options as well depending on what you expect to fight.

 

As for crusader squads power weapon, I'm leaning toward powerfist if it's a big squad. If you're only gonna have 1 attack, might as well make it multiple wounds to help counter being tarpitted by vehicles/monsters. I agree with non character sword brothers picking the thunder hammer over the fist since they cost the same. Just have a Chaplain to help with rerolls.

 

Grimaldus is great and his servitors are only 6 points!

[Marshal_von_Speer]

You guys also seem to forget, that a) transports are way more durable and b ) that you can assault out of them. (oh and Vehicles can assault too )

Edited June 26, 2017 by Marshal_von_Speer

[Ebon Hand]

@Marshal Wolfhart Ministorum Priests only buff Ministorum units and Astra Militarum.

 

We have to use a Marshal (Captain) or Helbrecht for rerolls.

[Lysere]

A couple things to keep in mind.

 

Melee weapons in general have more ap than their ranged equivalents. A power sword was formerly ap 3 and is now -3. Other ap 3 ranged weapons are now only -2. Marines still have a chance to survive against a Las cannon but not a thunder hammer.

 

Also the honor guard pairs aren't meant to be lots of attacks, that's what the champion is for.

[Firepower]

I feel like Hammer + Plasma pistol Sword Brethren are going to be a standard for my Crusader Squads now.  

 

If an army has a lot of high power anti tank and anti monster stuff, a Sword is a cheaper alternative to the Hammer.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Firepower

[balordazul]

I have only been able to get 3 games in so far.  Mainly because the wife is out of town dealing with a family emergency and I'm taking care of my 6 months old that has way to many Orky tendencies.  Two of the game BT vs ED and one DG vs BA out main goals have been to learn the rules and try to unlearn all the old ideas and core themes.

 

This edition does have a stronger focus on shooting.  In all three of my games I have had to rely on both shooting and melee to get the job done.  Every game was close.  

 

Things we have learned and some are just simply the new rules.

-No multi charge

-Can only attack the unit you charged even if you can pile into another unit

-only models within 1" of the enemy can attack

• What size bases are you guys on?  25mm or 32mm as 32mm starts to really reduce the number of models that can get in and attack.  Oops GW the 1" system was not thought out well in my opinion.

-You can lock up enemy vehicles even if you are not going to do a lot of damage to stop them from shooting so long as they don't have the Fly key word.

 

 

Playing DG was interesting as Plague Marines no longer have pistols and their melee weapon does not provide a bonus attack but a re-roll on 1's for to wound. Not having the extra attack and missing pistol really was telling in the game how bad they are in CC now.

 

-Buff Buff Buff and models with at least 2 attacks

• Grim and Helbretch were each used in separate games and the aura buffs they provided were huge.
• Pox walkers with Typhus buff and psychic powers turned a bad unit that died by handfuls to a unit that tied up death company for 3 turns before death company was swamped by enemy characters.
• Vets style units and weapons that add bonus attacks are needed
• Cenobite servitors are awesome at 6 points but will die as soon a your enemy gets clued in.

-Know your heroes / characters 

• EC executed Drizar and Lilith one after another only taking 2 wounds.
• Helbretch also crushed Lilith on the charge but was slagged by dark lanced as all his supporting units died.

- Higher static damage weapons are key unless you have a lot of attack like Helbretch or EC

• GW has over costed the multiple attack roll and multiple damage rolls.  Thunder hammers and chain fists are the goto for bit hitting power.

 

All in all I do feel melee is short changed this edition again.

 

PS:

LRC and Helbretch was awesome

Ven Dread died relatively fast but the 2+ to hit helped out

[Medjugorje]

Why do you think that Pistoles are so good in close combat...

 

1. in the turn you have attacked, you cannot shoot

2 in the next turn, if there is a enemy - the most will leave the combat or your enemy shoot at you.

3. in your next turn maybe he is left the cc or one of this units is already dead.

 

 

Close Combat is good - but just with characters,.. and they are so much better in buff the shooting

Its so horrible that Helbrecht is so much better behind 2 Preds instead of buffing 7 Terminators in a LRC.

And a Crusadersquad is waste of points to give them a crusader or Helbrecht...

 

Its always the same... maybe GW dont hate us,  THEY IGNORE US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Firepower]

 

Its always the same... maybe GW dont hate us,  THEY IGNORE US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Lots of Chapters are perturbed right now because of how the new edition has twisted up their rules.  Contrast Helbrecht with Dante, a character with the same point cost, and tell me again how bad we have it.  The Index is only a stop gap until new codexes come out.  Right now we're no more 'ignored' than any other Chapter that was in C:SM.  Helbrecht is one of the best characters in the book, we keep Crusader Squads, Grimaldus and the Emperor's Champion are hugely better than they were in 7th.  

 

I'm a pessimist and a cynic, but the doom crying since the change is well beyond reason.  Shifting from 'pistols are bad' to 'GW IGNORES US!' in one post makes no sense.

 

And on that note, Helbrecht can buff Crusaders and their LRC ride at the same time when he disembarks if you place him correctly.  Buff the shooting and buff the melee.  Work on solutions to problems you find instead of wasting energy on screaming about how the skies are falling.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Firepower

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Why do you think that Pistoles are so good in close combat...

 

1. in the turn you have attacked, you cannot shoot

2 in the next turn, if there is a enemy - the most will leave the combat or your enemy shoot at you.

3. in your next turn maybe he is left the cc or one of this units is already dead.

 

 

Close Combat is good - but just with characters,.. and they are so much better in buff the shooting

Its so horrible that Helbrecht is so much better behind 2 Preds instead of buffing 7 Terminators in a LRC.

And a Crusadersquad is waste of points to give them a crusader or Helbrecht...

 

Its always the same... maybe GW dont hate us,  THEY IGNORE US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

1. In 7th on the turn after you attack you only have 2 attacks until you get out of melee, in 8th, when it's your turn again you can shoot back...

2. If they leave combat, and you've left yourself open and surrounded, then they're going to die regardless of if they have stayed in melee, they're going to get charged from all directions anyway and probably die from Battleshock... don't charge unless you are supported or the enemy counter-shooting is not so damaging...

3. If the unit is dead, then the pistols did their job... if they ran away, chase them, shoot at them again, then assault them until they die...

 

Only absolute melee specific units are really good in melee right now, Khorne Berzerkers, Howling Banshees, Genestealers... everything else is mediocre... and only certain characters can buff shooting... Grimaldus can't... all Chaplains can't... and that +1 Attack rule rule only happens in melee...

 

I can't do the math... I'm not so good at probabilities, but 2 Annihilator Preds is 8 Lascannons with rerolls, 2 Destructor Preds is 12 Heavy Bolters and 4 Autocannons with rerolls...

7 Assault Terminators and a Land Raider Crusader is 14 Thunder Hammers, 12 Assault Cannons, 24 Bolter shots and a Multimelta with rerolls...

I'm not good at proability, but pretty sure that Helbrecht + Terminators + LRC = death...

 

A LRC with a Crusader Squad is actually useful for getting them into the fight unscratched... just give them a chaplain instead of Helbrecht, as Chaplains do the same thing that Helbrecht does bar the shooting and the +1 S, but for much cheaper points... Helbrecht is a Preator Chapter Master after all and he's much better with an Elite squad, instead of a standard squad... The Crusader for the Squad is also useful if you want to block off something nasty from Assaulting or Shooting them at their flanks... remember that LRC's can now Assault...

 

And I feel that they haven't completely ignored us... they boosted some of our unique characters after all, see the Emperor's Champion, but they just haven't gone around to finalize everyone's rules, once that's done, then we should see our identity restored to it's former state (and when I say former, I mean maybe jut 7th edition former...) once more...

[skoll]

oh man I've been gone for what seems like forever, but I saw this thread and I wanted to bring in a ray of hope that my buddy pointed out. Chaplain dreads, all the flavor of a regular dread, but untargettable due to character status and being under 10 wounds, and chaplain dreads strike me as one of the most fluffy BT units in existence.  Run some next to your rhinos, and they function both as choppy cc characters and fantastic mid range fire support. Just a fun tool box to add to your army.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Fun facts:

 

When the following are in combat with the same unit as the Chaplain Dreadnought, and within 6'' of High Marshal Helbrecht, the following hilarity ensues: 

 

The Emperor's Champion, when 1'' away from a character, with 6'' of Helbrecht, and in the same combat as the Chaplain Dread, strikes at Strength 9

 

Thunder Hammers and Power Fists strike at Strength 12, wounding toughness 6 vehicles and monsters on a 2+

 

Power Lances and Power Mauls strike at strength 8, wounding toughness 7 vehicles on a 3+

 

The Chaplain Dread benefits from both his own buff, and Helbrecht's, meaning he strikes at Strength 16, wounding a Toughness 8 vehicle or monster on a 2+

Most heavy vehicles do not go beyond Toughness 8.

[Acebaur]

Fun facts:

 

When the following are in combat with the same unit as the Chaplain Dreadnought, and within 6'' of High Marshal Helbrecht, the following hilarity ensues: 

 

The Emperor's Champion, when 1'' away from a character, with 6'' of Helbrecht, and in the same combat as the Chaplain Dread, strikes at Strength 9

 

Thunder Hammers and Power Fists strike at Strength 12, wounding toughness 6 vehicles and monsters on a 2+

 

Power Lances and Power Mauls strike at strength 8, wounding toughness 7 vehicles on a 3+

 

The Chaplain Dread benefits from both his own buff, and Helbrecht's, meaning he strikes at Strength 16, wounding a Toughness 8 vehicle or monster on a 2+

Most heavy vehicles do not go beyond Toughness 8.

 

Your math is a bit off there, TH and PF are S10 and the Chap Dread is S14. You always do multiplicative modifiers before addition or subtraction.  

 

 

I'd like to point out that 1 power sword attack is actually better against MEQ than 2 chainsword attacks. Not by much mind you, but still technically better.  Also I think power weapons are great options even for 1 attack models if you are going to have a re-roll nearby like a chaplain or Helbrecht. 

[Lysere]

I have only been able to get 3 games in so far. Mainly because the wife is out of town dealing with a family emergency and I'm taking care of my 6 months old that has way to many Orky tendencies. Two of the game BT vs ED and one DG vs BA out main goals have been to learn the rules and try to unlearn all the old ideas and core themes.

 

This edition does have a stronger focus on shooting. In all three of my games I have had to rely on both shooting and melee to get the job done. Every game was close.

 

Things we have learned and some are just simply the new rules.

-No multi charge

-Can only attack the unit you charged even if you can pile into another unit

-only models within 1" of the enemy can attack

Actually you might missed that models within an inch of models who are themselves are within an inch can swing, so you can get at least two rows of models swinging which if done right can let a model that caught the edge of one unit you didn't charge swing on the original target.

 

I actually found multi charging to be quite good. So the game I played today was 1k. I had Helbrecht, a captain, three crusader squads (one large melee and two small ranged) and a land raider crusader. The melee squad got into combat turn two and basically spent the rest of the game dragging units into combat and forcing my opponent to fall back each turn or have no targets. (I was fighting guard)

 

I multi charged the two units I needed to do damage to but would position a model to drag one of his Russes into combat where it would inevitably miss and then have to fall back. Helbrecht would charge whatever really needed to die that turn.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Lysere

[SydonianDragoon404]

 

Fun facts:

 

When the following are in combat with the same unit as the Chaplain Dreadnought, and within 6'' of High Marshal Helbrecht, the following hilarity ensues: 

 

The Emperor's Champion, when 1'' away from a character, with 6'' of Helbrecht, and in the same combat as the Chaplain Dread, strikes at Strength 9

 

Thunder Hammers and Power Fists strike at Strength 12, wounding toughness 6 vehicles and monsters on a 2+

 

Power Lances and Power Mauls strike at strength 8, wounding toughness 7 vehicles on a 3+

 

The Chaplain Dread benefits from both his own buff, and Helbrecht's, meaning he strikes at Strength 16, wounding a Toughness 8 vehicle or monster on a 2+

Most heavy vehicles do not go beyond Toughness 8.

 

Your math is a bit off there, TH and PF are S10 and the Chap Dread is S14. You always do multiplicative modifiers before addition or subtraction.  

 

 

I'd like to point out that 1 power sword attack is actually better against MEQ than 2 chainsword attacks. Not by much mind you, but still technically better.  Also I think power weapons are great options even for 1 attack models if you are going to have a re-roll nearby like a chaplain or Helbrecht. 

 

Damn I didn't see that in the rule book before you said something and I went looking for it specifically. I was hoping they got rid of that stipulation. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Marshal_von_Speer]

I have only been able to get 3 games in so far.  Mainly because the wife is out of town dealing with a family emergency and I'm taking care of my 6 months old that has way to many Orky tendencies.  Two of the game BT vs ED and one DG vs BA out main goals have been to learn the rules and try to unlearn all the old ideas and core themes.

 

This edition does have a stronger focus on shooting.  In all three of my games I have had to rely on both shooting and melee to get the job done.  Every game was close.  

 

Things we have learned and some are just simply the new rules.

-No multi charge

-Can only attack the unit you charged even if you can pile into another unit

-only models within 1" of the enemy can attack

[...]

 

I'm afraid you are wrong. You can charge multiple units and you can also fight with mulitple units as long as you charged them this turn.

 

From page 8 of the Battle Primer:

 

Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more

enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the

charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch.

 

First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the

attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model

must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of

another model from its own unit that is itself within 1"

of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in

two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target

enemy units that they charged in the previous phase.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Marshal_von_Speer

[Ciler]

It is also worth keeping in mind that a crusader squad is not a great CC unit, and was never intended to be. Sure, with neophytes and the hidden power weapon we have an advantage over other marine CC units in terms of weight of dice, but that's... about it.

 

Truly great CC units have something more. Space Wolves blood claws and Blood Angel Death Company have a charge bonus, and I haven't even looked at what xenos can do...

 

This is where special characters come in. A chaplain gives rerolls for ~70 pts, grimaldus gives rerolls AND extra attacks. helbrecht gives +1 S...

 

We gotta stop looking at units individually I think, and more at general list building and character inclusion.

 

As an example, in a test game on sunday I got my (somewhat reduced) crusader squad in CC with a grey hunter pack. The Grey Hunters had the extra melee weapon meaning we had broadly the same number of attacks. The fight looked like it would be drawn out, but by the second turn i'd moved an apothecary nearby. Having one less loss per turn got me the victory eventually.