"Melee is more deadly than ever" and the loss of melee power

[M@verik115]

How many games have you had? 
I've found CC to be pretty solid so far and my Templars are much better than in 7th ed. 

CC isn't super OP, but it is far more worthwhile now. 
Its all about building your army and taking advantage of placement and synergy. 
Always take advantage of character passives. 

[Lysere]

Another advantage for close combat is most melee weapons have slightly better AP than their ranged equivalent. Ranged weapons that used to be AP 3 are mostly -2 now, while AP 3 melee weapons are -3. From what I've seen this is pretty consistent across the board with only a few weapons not following this trend.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Also melee weapons get to hit twice per game turn, granted one survives the first fight phase.

[balordazul]

 

I have only been able to get 3 games in so far.  Mainly because the wife is out of town dealing with a family emergency and I'm taking care of my 6 months old that has way to many Orky tendencies.  Two of the game BT vs ED and one DG vs BA out main goals have been to learn the rules and try to unlearn all the old ideas and core themes.

 

This edition does have a stronger focus on shooting.  In all three of my games I have had to rely on both shooting and melee to get the job done.  Every game was close.  

 

Things we have learned and some are just simply the new rules.

-No multi charge

-Can only attack the unit you charged even if you can pile into another unit

-only models within 1" of the enemy can attack

[...]

 

I'm afraid you are wrong. You can charge multiple units and you can also fight with mulitple units as long as you charged them this turn.

 

From page 8 of the Battle Primer:

 

Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more

enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the

charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch.

 

First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the

attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model

must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of

another model from its own unit that is itself within 1"

of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in

two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target

enemy units that they charged in the previous phase.

 

Yep you are right you can charge multiple units.  Thank you for pointing that out.  Unfortunately you still can't pile into a non charged enemy unit and attack them as that was a strange case we ran into in the third game.  

[Medjugorje]

How many games have you had? 

I've found CC to be pretty solid so far and my Templars are much better than in 7th ed. 

CC isn't super OP, but it is far more worthwhile now. 

Its all about building your army and taking advantage of placement and synergy. 

Always take advantage of character passives. 

the problem is that some armies can shoot like tau and eldar did in last edition. You cannot play Crusaders in a LRC when Guilliman stands behind 2 LR and shoot at you. And even your Crusaders get into cc, you are very surprised how little damage they make just to see the enemy in his turn will go away and shoot you... Or win the cc because there are so many units they beat you in cc. Its not about complaining that CC isnt good. Its more about complaining that we are better in shooting then in CC.

[AlmightyWalrus]

 

How many games have you had? 

I've found CC to be pretty solid so far and my Templars are much better than in 7th ed. 

CC isn't super OP, but it is far more worthwhile now. 

Its all about building your army and taking advantage of placement and synergy. 

Always take advantage of character passives. 

the problem is that some armies can shoot like tau and eldar did in last edition. You cannot play Crusaders in a LRC when Guilliman stands behind 2 LR and shoot at you. And even your Crusaders get into cc, you are very surprised how little damage they make just to see the enemy in his turn will go away and shoot you... Or win the cc because there are so many units they beat you in cc. Its not about complaining that CC isnt good. Its more about complaining that we are better in shooting then in CC.

 

 

This exactly. The melee units we had that could actually fight other powerful melee units got worse, while our chaff-clearers remained unchanged or got slight buffs. We can't outfight the choppy ones and we can't outfight the shooty ones, so who do we outfight?

[Lysere]

 

 

How many games have you had?

I've found CC to be pretty solid so far and my Templars are much better than in 7th ed.

CC isn't super OP, but it is far more worthwhile now.

Its all about building your army and taking advantage of placement and synergy.

Always take advantage of character passives.

the problem is that some armies can shoot like tau and eldar did in last edition. You cannot play Crusaders in a LRC when Guilliman stands behind 2 LR and shoot at you. And even your Crusaders get into cc, you are very surprised how little damage they make just to see the enemy in his turn will go away and shoot you... Or win the cc because there are so many units they beat you in cc. Its not about complaining that CC isnt good. Its more about complaining that we are better in shooting then in CC.

If you get a unit into combat with those land raiders they are now useless for their entire next turn as they get nothing to let them act after falling back. A 200 point crusader squad would completely shut down over 600 points of armor even if they don't do much damage.

 

This seems minor but I won my last game doing this. My crusader squad spent every turn dragging two or three units into combat and forcing my opponent to waste actions just so they could put some shots into me rather than no shots.

 

Crusader squads have never been melee power houses, they are incredibly versatile allowing a single squad to be equipped for all kinds of threats. This edition really feels like it's all about having the right characters. Champions and such are great in melee and can add just that little bit more punch to an assault while being inexpensive.

 

Yeah someone could throw a primarch or chapter master behind a pair of land raiders and dakka you from across the table but that's a lot of points that won't stop that same number of points in gaunts or ork boyz. Lists like that will be more of an issue at the local level but in the larger meta will probably be uncommon.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

I don't understand how previous units good at melee got weaker this edition... aside for the Honour Guard and the loss of attacks on Crusader Squads, everybody else got a boost... Vanguards can now Deep Strike and Charge... Terminators too... Thunder Hammers are terrifying just against anything... Dreadnoughts, while Drop Pods are now gone, have more HP than before, even the tanks can now Assault...

 

Against shooty ones, you can't really complain about overwatch... you sort of just grit your teeth and accept that Overwatch returned from the grave of 2nd edition and it seems it's here to stay... if the enemy fell back, then you probably didn't charge enough targets the previous turn... I tend to keep 1 massive squad with the LRC, so that the LRC can get ahead and charge some shooty squad that would threaten the Crusaders if the enemy fell back... also, falling back enemies can't do a thing, and if they're focusing on the Crusaders... and if all you got are Crusader Squads... then there might be something wrong with your Synergy... even in 7th ed. and 6th ed. Crusader Squads have been our bread and butter, but not our main butcher squad... that title goes to the much more expensive units like Sword Brethrens or Assault Terminators... Crusader Squads are more of a tarpit squad even in large numbers... if a Dreadnought gets thrown to the squad, they are pretty much just going to get stuck while 1 Marine tries to explode it with a sticky grenade...

 

Try to kill a Berzerker Squad or an Ork Squad with an Assault Terminator Squad, then try it with a Crusader Squad, then you'd see the difference between 7th ed. and 8th ed....

[Ciler]

 

How many games have you had? 

I've found CC to be pretty solid so far and my Templars are much better than in 7th ed. 

CC isn't super OP, but it is far more worthwhile now. 

Its all about building your army and taking advantage of placement and synergy. 

Always take advantage of character passives. 

the problem is that some armies can shoot like tau and eldar did in last edition. You cannot play Crusaders in a LRC when Guilliman stands behind 2 LR and shoot at you. And even your Crusaders get into cc, you are very surprised how little damage they make just to see the enemy in his turn will go away and shoot you... Or win the cc because there are so many units they beat you in cc. Its not about complaining that CC isnt good. Its more about complaining that we are better in shooting then in CC.

 

If you get within 1" of an enemy unit, they can't peel away and shoot back, because the retreat move explicitly forbids it (unless the unit has fly).

 

 

 

 

I have only been able to get 3 games in so far.  Mainly because the wife is out of town dealing with a family emergency and I'm taking care of my 6 months old that has way to many Orky tendencies.  Two of the game BT vs ED and one DG vs BA out main goals have been to learn the rules and try to unlearn all the old ideas and core themes.

 

This edition does have a stronger focus on shooting.  In all three of my games I have had to rely on both shooting and melee to get the job done.  Every game was close.  

 

Things we have learned and some are just simply the new rules.

-No multi charge

-Can only attack the unit you charged even if you can pile into another unit

-only models within 1" of the enemy can attack

[...]

 

I'm afraid you are wrong. You can charge multiple units and you can also fight with mulitple units as long as you charged them this turn.

 

From page 8 of the Battle Primer:

 

Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more

enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the

charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch.

 

First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the

attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model

must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of

another model from its own unit that is itself within 1"

of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in

two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target

enemy units that they charged in the previous phase.

 

Yep you are right you can charge multiple units.  Thank you for pointing that out.  Unfortunately you still can't pile into a non charged enemy unit and attack them as that was a strange case we ran into in the third game.  

 

You can pile into them and they will from this point onward be within 1" of an enemy model. This means they can't shoot, fire overwatch or pretty much anything else. They can retreat but then lose all action next turn.

[Schlitzaf]

As I have said elsewhere Crusader Squads are fine. Don't imagine them as being Zerkers, instead they are more like Plague Marines. We having FNP + Toughness, we have two wounds split between two models and a larger footprint. Their job isn't to wipe a unit (atleast I never played them that way), they are meant to attrition our foe's out. Sense we don't have any benefits for charging beside strike first. And our bonuses are not one round only. In comparison to other armies (less true with the Edition changeover). If you run a Crusader Squad it needs support. Preferably small footprints so not to clog. Also in this Edition, Cenos, Cenos, and Cenos are basically mandatory units for Crusader Squads 10+ in size. A 6 points or 1 power. They are dirt cheap. And with 24" (12" x 2) bubble, and you can hide them out of LOS there is no reason to not take them.

 

I use Intercessors as Fire Support, at 100 points they provide solid durability, Fire support and 11 additional attacks to mid field Crusader Squads. Crusaders are still one of the better tactical equivalent, with perhaps Grey Hunters being the best Tactical replacements. And we are on par (or better imho) with Strike and Deathwatch Squads because of our affordability and MSU capability which even Hunters lack in comparison.

[skoll]

 

 

 

How many games have you had?

I've found CC to be pretty solid so far and my Templars are much better than in 7th ed.

CC isn't super OP, but it is far more worthwhile now.

Its all about building your army and taking advantage of placement and synergy.

Always take advantage of character passives.

the problem is that some armies can shoot like tau and eldar did in last edition. You cannot play Crusaders in a LRC when Guilliman stands behind 2 LR and shoot at you. And even your Crusaders get into cc, you are very surprised how little damage they make just to see the enemy in his turn will go away and shoot you... Or win the cc because there are so many units they beat you in cc. Its not about complaining that CC isnt good. Its more about complaining that we are better in shooting then in CC.

If you get a unit into combat with those land raiders they are now useless for their entire next turn as they get nothing to let them act after falling back. A 200 point crusader squad would completely shut down over 600 points of armor even if they don't do much damage.

 

This seems minor but I won my last game doing this. My crusader squad spent every turn dragging two or three units into combat and forcing my opponent to waste actions just so they could put some shots into me rather than no shots.

 

Crusader squads have never been melee power houses, they are incredibly versatile allowing a single squad to be equipped for all kinds of threats. This edition really feels like it's all about having the right characters. Champions and such are great in melee and can add just that little bit more punch to an assault while being inexpensive.

 

Yeah someone could throw a primarch or chapter master behind a pair of land raiders and dakka you from across the table but that's a lot of points that won't stop that same number of points in gaunts or ork boyz. Lists like that will be more of an issue at the local level but in the larger meta will probably be uncommon.

To be fair a lot of the xenos vehicles and creatures have now been given the fly keyword, so that tactic works mostly against imperial armies of all things. It also sadly doesnt work against superheavies as they can fire while in combat or if they fell back.

[Lysere]

To be fair a lot of the xenos vehicles and creatures have now been given the fly keyword, so that tactic works mostly against imperial armies of all things. It also sadly doesnt work against superheavies as they can fire while in combat or if they fell back.

That point was more in response to the idea of your opponent just sitting back with a pair of land raiders or equivalents. Vehicles with fly tend to be a lot easier to kill than their equivalents and you could end up locking them in combat if they're movement ends up low enough.

 

In regards to super heavies that's kind of the point for them. They need that or they would be unplayable. There are many vehicles that don't have that rule, or the fly rule.

 

The majority of actual factions tend to have less things with fly. Its mostly the various flavors of eldar, necrons, and tau that have a decent amount of fly, and even then it's mostly left to their vehicles which don't usually have the same degree of raw durability as many other heavy vehicles.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Lysere

[balordazul]

You can pile into them and they will from this point onward be within 1" of an enemy model. This means they can't shoot, fire overwatch or pretty much anything else. They can retreat but then lose all action next turn.

 

 

Yep and that is what I did.

[Honda]

I think we also need to keep in mind, GW didn't single out the Templars and beat them down.

 

In fact, everything changed for everyone. Points changed. How units move, Everything.

 

So comparing how things worked in 7th vs. 8th is not apples to apples comparison.

 

Everything you once knew has changed and it's a new ballgame.

[Firepower]

 

Everything you once knew has changed and it's a new ballgame.

 

And yet the Eternal Crusade continues, defiant and resolute, indomitable and relentless.  

[Acebaur]

 

 

Everything you once knew has changed and it's a new ballgame.

 

And yet the Eternal Crusade continues, defiant and resolute, indomitable and relentless.  

 

 

And with named characters who are better than ever ;)

[Ciler]

 

 

 

Everything you once knew has changed and it's a new ballgame.

 

And yet the Eternal Crusade continues, defiant and resolute, indomitable and relentless.  

 

 

And with named characters who are better than ever

 

Yes. Those cenobytes are just awesome !