Champion Equipping confusion

[Dragonlover]

So, I'm gonna ask a simple question: can I give an Aspiring Champion a power sword and a combi plasma? Because I assumed I could, but I just reread the weapons list and their use of the word 'alternatively' has thrown me off.

 

Dragonlover

[Panzer]

Hm yeah it kinda sounds like he can either take up to two from the one list or one from the other.

 

Guess they don't want Aspiring Champions with a melee weapon + ranged weapon (or two ranged weapons even).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That is, unfortunately, the strictest RAW reading of the equipment section.  I'm still trying to figure out if I can a chainsword and combi-weapon, though, since the chainsword is standard equipment and he should come with it anyway.  And yet he doesn't.

[The Traitor]

I beleive that you can only take a combi-weapon for champions. But can Chaos Lords, who can swap their chainsword for a second bolt pistol, then exchange it for a second combi-weapon? It says that they may exchange their bolt pistol for a combi-weapon so, does it says anywhere that it has to be a bolt pistol that you originally had?

[Trevak Dal]

...Can you take two Combi weapons? Because that could look sorta cool. Akimbo combibolters, 4 shots at range, 8 shots within 12.

[Commissar K.]

So, I'm gonna ask a simple question: can I give an Aspiring Champion a power sword and a combi plasma? Because I assumed I could, but I just reread the weapons list and their use of the word 'alternatively' has thrown me off.

 

Dragonlover

You can't as per page 11 of the Index Chaos

 

Champion Equipement: The champion can thake up to two weapons chosen from the following list. The Combi Weapons are the alternative to the regular 2 Champion Equipement initial list.

 

...Can you take two Combi weapons? Because that could look sorta cool. Akimbo combibolters, 4 shots at range, 8 shots within 12.

You can't, usually. You can have a Combi-Weapon and Pistol for a Chaos Lord for example. Otherwise I believe that every character follows the same principle of having access to one Combi-Weapon and Chaos Lord (checked) can only replace its chainsword with a Pistol or Melee weapon.

 

Still a guy with a Combi Plasma Bolter and Plasma Pistol is very cool also.

 

*Note: I only checked the Chaos Lord of this. Perhaps there are charaters who can, it can always differ per Datasheet offcourse.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Dragonlover]

Well balls. Ah well, that's 12 points gained on that list to spend on extra stuff for the Rhino's.

 

Dragonlover

[Commissar K.]

Well balls. Ah well, that's 12 points gained on that list to spend on extra stuff for the Rhino's.

 

Dragonlover

Yeah I'm certain you'll find something worthy.

 

Havoc Launchers and Combi Flamers are both amazing anti-infantry choices. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Well balls. Ah well, that's 12 points gained on that list to spend on extra stuff for the Rhino's.

 

Dragonlover

Yeah I'm certain you'll find something worthy.

 

Havoc Launchers and Combi Flamers are both amazing anti-infantry choices. 

 

 

Don't let Jeske hear you say that.  Over in the Heavy Support thread, he just claimed that blast weapons are hot garbage.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

Well balls. Ah well, that's 12 points gained on that list to spend on extra stuff for the Rhino's.

 

Dragonlover

Yeah I'm certain you'll find something worthy.

 

Havoc Launchers and Combi Flamers are both amazing anti-infantry choices. 

 

 

Don't let Jeske hear you say that.  Over in the Heavy Support thread, he just claimed that blast weapons are hot garbage.

 

Well everybody is entitled to their opinion. Lets just say that I wouldn't ever want to skip on Flamer options.

 

Heldrake being the finest example, Flying + Flamers is messed up. We have a few options for that. :) 

[Panzer]

 

 

Well balls. Ah well, that's 12 points gained on that list to spend on extra stuff for the Rhino's.

 

Dragonlover

Yeah I'm certain you'll find something worthy.

 

Havoc Launchers and Combi Flamers are both amazing anti-infantry choices. 

 

 

Don't let Jeske hear you say that.  Over in the Heavy Support thread, he just claimed that blast weapons are hot garbage.

 

But Jeske pretty much always says unit X is garbage except for some very few examples. :D

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Oh, I'm aware.  We've had this discussion with him before.  He takes the most extreme power-gamery, points-efficiency view possible towards his army because he's Russian and the Russian meta is like, hard core serious.  I don't blame him for his extremism, but it certainly grates on the nerves from time to time.

[Dragonlover]

Having now tweaked the list, the power swords have turned into pairs of combi bolters for the Rhinos.

 

Cheers for the help guys. I'd not thought to look, the other champions I'd equipped were in my Khorne army, so I just went as hitty as possible. Still bummed that we can't take fisticlaw biker champions, but ah well.

 

Dragonlover

[Sception]

Flamers arent blast, & they're fine, but 'blast' blasts that dont auto hit are mostly pretty bad. I love my havoc launchers aesthetically, byt averaging only two hits per turn, and at my luck rarely managing even that, they've been disappointing on the table so far. Same with defiler battle cannons and brute plasma cannons. In my admittedly minimal experience with 8e so far, you're better off taking less boom and more zap or dakka instead.

 

Though there are exceptions, especially in the r&h stuff. I havent tried them yet, but earthshaker batteries and heavy quad launchers look good, for instance.

Edited June 27, 2017 by malisteen

[Commissar K.]

All I can say is influence your luck with HQ characters. Models like your normal Chaos Lord or Khârn do a really good job in making quality attacks hand out that quality hit.

In addition I also have the feeling many still have to grip the game for what it is. As dice manipulation has never been so key. Re-rolling a D6 wounds roll because you rolled 1 is worth it, especially during the early stages of the game because any severely hurt Vechicles will matter the most then.

Everybody can like and dislike weaponry offcourse. I'm not going to enforce anyone to play X or Y, especially not if I dont have 100+ games of 8th under my belt. I would only speak from actual experience and not follow theoryhammer paths too much. The prime reason for that is that the game has a lot of gotcha's you'll only get out of your system by playing.

[the jeske]

 

 

Well balls. Ah well, that's 12 points gained on that list to spend on extra stuff for the Rhino's.

 

Dragonlover

Yeah I'm certain you'll find something worthy.

 

Havoc Launchers and Combi Flamers are both amazing anti-infantry choices. 

 

 

Don't let Jeske hear you say that.  Over in the Heavy Support thread, he just claimed that blast weapons are hot garbage.

 

Randomise the number of shot you can do with a battle cannon and check how efficient it is. Or if you do not want me talk about it, visit any IG forum and read what they think about blast weapon changes and their multiple blast units like LR etc. Blast weapons are bad in 8th. just think about it, you are going to be moving your stuff[defilers/rhinos/vindicators] that is -1to hit, there is a chance to get extra -1 to hit from some armies, but lets ignore that for a moment. 50% of your shots with blast weapons miss. Multi shot is king in 8th[not that it wasn't in 7th].

 

As combi weapons go they are not blast and I can imagine people runing them on some units[and am not talking terminators who of course should have the full load out of combis]. Also as am not sure about what points people test their armies in your area, but at the 2k pts size [which to use seems to be what GW thinks as the "normal" game size] even if you load up combi flamer on all units that can take them, your not stoping hordes fast and strong enough. This rises the question of should combi flamers be run, because they are efficient vs some type of units[under strenght stuff, pin point chaff removal if chaff has 10 models or smaller squads, finishing understrengh marine squads], the testing done up till now did not give clear enough data. For some armies[imperials] the combi flamers can be replaced by other stuff. For chaos and more specific csm armies it is much harder.

 

 

 

But Jeske pretty much always says unit X is garbage except for some very few examples.

 

not really. it just that some you guys have an almost magical ability to pick the worse type of unit with the worse type of gear and amalgam it in to an army, which half the time I do not understand the workings of.

There is  good and viable in 8th for chaos [and not just the FW stuff  which more or less is unit++ stuff], only few people talk about it here. And I think people should do testing and math on what ever 6 man havocks with 3 AC are better/worse then 5man havocks with 2-4 ACs. Or what is the more point efficient chaff for chaos [pox being more resilient, but cultists having a cheapo flamer]. What ever maces or swords should be run for second line melee untis .  Is a three wave list valid for chaos marines or does one have to use nurglings every time[as csm unlike loyalist do not have scouts] and how does this change the game play of the lists [as scouts=choppier and shotiers, but nurglings cheaper leaving more points for second and third wave units]. Which then rises the question, if a third unit of raptors is valid in such lists. No one talks about stuff like that here [and chaos is hardly a power house in 8th, so my intersts in it can't be linked to "power gaming"], but you do talk about runing defilers and taking havocks on rhinos.

Edited June 27, 2017 by the jeske

[Commissar K.]

Jeske, what is there to randomise if you have re-rolls regardless of theory? The way this influences mathhammer is currently left out the discussion because of subjective reasoning?

 

We are not IG, cant do the same and likewise IG have to outshoot because they cant melee, where we can.

 

Armies are not composed soley of Battlecannons. You can and will have different weapons.

 

Using data from a IG perspective is an extremely poor reflection of what Chaos is. We need some anti Horde weaponry but not solely, because we dont suck in melee.

 

Even the most gunline heavy Chaos lists should consider Berzerkers and Warp Talons as counter to Hordes, because they can eat them alive. Use combined arms to your advantage, Chaos is combined arms througout.

[Excessus]

This thread is about equipping our champions, not about heavy support, blasts and templates.

 

It's an important thread since the equipment our champions can take changed drastically, so I'm leaving it open. No offtopic, no personal attacks.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

So, I'm gonna ask a simple question: can I give an Aspiring Champion a power sword and a combi plasma? Because I assumed I could, but I just reread the weapons list and their use of the word 'alternatively' has thrown me off.

 

Dragonlover

 

It might be worth bring this up on the Warhammer 40,000 facebook page, just there can be some over sight.  I've already sent forward a few question.

 

[Xenith]

That's really weird. The SM Sergeant entry is worded differently, and as such, a SM sergeant can take 2x 1 handed weapons as well as a combi.

[The Traitor]

I know you can only exchange the chaisword for pistols or melee weapons, the thing is that becausr of it, you can exchange the chainsword for a bolt pistol, and you CAN exchange bolt pistols (pistol option) for combi-weapons... I'm of course far from sure that this would work, but it would be cool.

[Commissar K.]

That's really weird. The SM Sergeant entry is worded differently, and as such, a SM sergeant can take 2x 1 handed weapons as well as a combi.

It all differs per datasheet. Same goes for Keywords. They all are something different :) 

 

I don't think it's weird. It's all new. This whole edition is one of the larger edition changes since 3rd really.

 

I know you can only exchange the chaisword for pistols or melee weapons, the thing is that becausr of it, you can exchange the chainsword for a bolt pistol, and you CAN exchange bolt pistols (pistol option) for combi-weapons... I'm of course far from sure that this would work, but it would be cool.

Yep, some characters like the Chaos Lord can have a Plasmapistol and Combi Plasma for example, makes him quite the cool small unit/light vechicle hunter I guess.

In general though the difference in practicle use isn't too big. Champions can have quite some cool gear. Imperium has a ton of options as always, many more as Chaos. But that has been the case since 4th as far as I know and then they where still a little bit more limited.

 

Luckily though, due to very good internal balancing, it all works out reasonably well. With this I mean is that costs still add up so you get more power if you pay more (in Matched play). In Power point play I guess the balance is a little bit more different but then again each can equip as to their liking for no real additional drastical limits.