Dreadnaught Vs Dreadknight

[newdigitalGK]

So, is it just me or do dreadnaughts outperform dreadknights in almost every aspect?

 

Some thoughts off top of my head

 

Dreadnaughts are cheaper

Dreadnaughts have better ballistic weapon options

Dreadnaughts have the same or better WS/BS

Dreadnaughts have don't degrade over time

 

thoughts?

[Captain Coolpants]

All true!

But they are nowhere near as survivable. 4 wounds less, -1 save, no invuln. I actually found that my noughts were killing just as much as my knights, but simply weren't around as long.

 

So I think I'll still use knights more

[newdigitalGK]

All true!

But they are nowhere near as survivable. 4 wounds less, -1 save, no invuln. I actually found that my noughts were killing just as much as my knights, but simply weren't around as long.

 

So I think I'll still use knights more

I would agree however venerable dreads do get the ignore wounds on 6+ which isn't as good as an invul but could negate mortal wounds depending on how you rule that rule.

[Seizeman]

A doomglaive deals more damage than a fully kitted dreadknight. Doomglaive costs 168 while dreadknight costs 225. That's a 34% cost increase.

 

 

About defense, Dreadknights are more dan twice as tough vs bolters, about 25% vs medium fire and about 60% vs heavy fire. That's not taking into consideration smoke launchers, which are really effective to reduce damage income while you close the distance, and the fact that the dreadnought can get cover/blos (I'ts not super easy, but not that hard, with the dreadknight is basically impossible).

 

So dreadnoughts deal significantly more damage for their cost and dreadknights are a bit tougher.

 

From my experience, grey knights are not tough enough to win an attrition battle, they are an offesive army that must use their high damage output to decimate the opponent before they can use their army to the fullest. With that in mind and considering my testing, I prefer dreadnoughts. I've found dreadknights harmless enough that the opponent can ignore them most of the time, and there's no point in having a very resistant target if it is not threatening enough. Also, between smoke and possible cover (hiding them behind a land raider is specially nice), the dreads are almost as tough for the first turn, and after that is all about offensive.

 

As a complement to the rest of the army, the dreads do their job while costing a ton less (you can get close to 3 dreadnoughts for the price of 2 dreadknights).

[Arebennian]

You also have to pay 100 points for a drop pod as opposed to 10 points to drop in.

[Seizeman]

First, Grey Knights can't take drop pods. Second, even if they could, drop pods can't carry dreadnoughts. And third, the dreadnought does have gate of infinity.

 

Also, massive deep strike is just bad, and if you want a deep strike squad, you take Paladins as they are superior to the dreadknight in every way.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Doomglaive can get GoI, normal GK Dreads can't and are limited to Smite only.

 

That being said, you'd need a good reason not to be using the Doomglaive.

[Valerian]

 

That being said, you'd need a good reason not to be using the Doomglaive.

 

Like, you don't have one?

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm lucky that the guys i game with don't get fixated on you having the exact wargear.

 

So if you want to try a new gun, you don't have to either magnetise or rip the arms off your models.

 

I feel bad for folk who play under strict wysiwyg. Inculding genades...

[Seizeman]

Well, the doomglaive is the best generalist dreadnough, good in combat and shooting. There's shooty dreadnoughts, but there's no point comparing them to the dreadknight as their role is completely different. The heavy psycannon is probably the best weapon a medium range dread can take. It is like 3 autocannons strapped together, while being cheaper than a twin autocannon. And the doomglaive is just as good or even better than the regular dreadnought close combat weapon. It has less strenght, but that's only relevant vs T5 and 6, and it does more damage vs targets with more than 3 wounds. The best thing is, it costs HALF as much as the regular one.

 

On a side note, I've been kind of dissapointed with shooty dreadnoughts. The only weapon you really want is the lasscannon, and you can't equip two of those. The AC is a fine weapon, but you army can already deal with medium armor targets. You want your dreads for heavy anti armor, and for that the AC it's just not good enough.

[Adeptus]

http://www.tsoalr.com/comics/2003-10-06-011_proxy.gif

http://www.tsoalr.com/comics/2003-10-09-012_soda.gif

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z245/Mahtipakarat/d63d51df.jpg

 

The joys of a WYSIWYG free environment ;)

[Waking Dreamer]

If Dreadknights say got an improvement in their BS to 3+ after moving from our codex (e.g. new sanctum powers), would that make them bringing in heavy weapons worthwhile?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

If Dreadknights say got an improvement in their BS to 3+ after moving from our codex (e.g. new sanctum powers), would that make them bringing in heavy weapons worthwhile? 

 

 

I'd like GW to give us back Relentless on TDA and vehicles. But that's unlikely to happen. 

 

Dreadknights still have a purpose, they're for taking out enemy big stuff and can survive getting shot/charged by a lot of things. They're just not automatically better than every other unit anymore. Venerable Dreads outshoot them, Doomglaives are more cost effective but less durable/killy as a result, Paladins mulch enemy elite units and infantry better. So instead of fielding 3-4, you field like 2 and take other things to complement them. 

[Seizeman]

Actually doomlgaives are MORE killy than dreadknights. It's shooting is a lot better vs medium armor and similar or better vs heavy armor, and it deals significantly more damage in melee than the dreadknight (basically same attacks and weapon, but better WS).

 

With the new codex (which is rumored to be one of the first ones to be released after primaris and death guard) anything could change so no point in wondering.

[Holier Than Thou]

With the new codex (which is rumored to be one of the first ones to be released after primaris and death guard) anything could change so no point in wondering.

Any info on how far off this could be? Are we looking at weeks, months, years?

[Seizeman]

Well, they already stated they were working on 14 codexes and were planning to release them at a fast pace. If we look at how many supplements have been released on the past year for Age of sigmar and how much better planned 40k release seems to be, I'd say we'll have every codex abailable well before 2018 ends. It's already confirmed primaris and death guard will come next month, so 2 codexes per month (at least during the next ones) seems likely. I saw rumors about GK+ Tyranids being one of the first batches, but nothing solid.

[Valerian]

 

That being said, you'd need a good reason not to be using the Doomglaive.

 

Just had another look at the Doomglaive and it also occurs to me that you're stuck with the Heavy Psycannon, which I wouldn't bother with.  It's price is a little too steep for a weapon that is S7 (wounds most things on a 3+ or worse) and only has AP-1.  I'd rather spend points on a regular Venerable that can take the Twin Lascannons - they're a little more expensive, but can seriously threaten everything in the game.

[Seizeman]

A doomglaive is 168 while a venerable with close combat weapon + twin lascannon is 202, that's a significant difference, specially when it dies just as easy. Also the lascannon is only really better against t8. Against rhinos it is just slightly superior than the Psycannon. Against anything lighter the Psycannon is significantly superior. Of course the lascannon has range, but there's not much use in doing a couple of wounds to a long range target if the rest of your army is short to medium range and can't focus it down.

[Valerian]

A doomglaive is 168 while a venerable with close combat weapon + twin lascannon is 202, 

 

It's only 182, so just 14 points more expensive for the same profile and better long-ranged weapon load out.  AP-1 really hurts the viability of the Heavy Psycannon for anti-vehicle, which is what our army is really lacking.  

 

EDIT:  Seizeman pointed out, below, that the GK version of the Venerable Dreadnought is 20 points more expensive than the generic one.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Valerian

[newdigitalGK]

Ok I'm a noob why can't I find this doomglaive? Is it a board knickname or an actual model and if so link? or page in book?

[Zamtro]

Ok I'm a noob why can't I find this doomglaive? Is it a board knickname or an actual model and if so link? or page in book?

 

It's a forgeworld based Dreadnought.

[Valerian]

Yeah, it's in the new Adeptus Astartes Index that Forge World released.

[Seizeman]

Grey knight venerables cost 20 points more than regular ones, so it is 202 points. For 182 you get  a space marine one, which does not have psychic powers, can't be teleported or transported in a  stormraven and does not benefit from auras. If you take that one, then it's actually worse than the doomglaive in every single aspect, it does less melee dmg, less shooting and has less mobility, so there's no reason ever to take it. If you take the grey knight one, you are paying 34 points for a sidegrade as, as I already stated, the lascannon is only really better against T8 (and slightly better vs t7) while being actually worse against everything else and, of course, you don't get to pick a psychic power and have an inferior melee weapon.

[Valerian]

Grey knight venerables cost 20 points more than regular ones, so it is 202 points. 

 

Ah, yes.  Forgot we had our own prices for the Dreads/Ven Dreads.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Doomglaives are only more killy if they actually get into melee. Dreadknights can buy Teleport Strike and have 8" base movement. 2+ armour ,5+ invul and 12 wounds is harder to deal with compared to a 3+ save and 8 wounds.

 

If you can deliver the Doomglaive with either a 'Gate' cast or a Raven, its definitely going to get work done. But it's not strictly better than a DK in every aspect. Also DK's don't have to purchase guns, and increasingly I'm feeling like its a wise idea with the changes to Heavy weapons and the loss of Relentless.

 

I think the 20pt tax on our Dreads is fair, as that's probably what Smite is worth roughly.