FW Index - highlights

[Feral_80]

I just picked this up. Other threads have already highlighted its typos, flaws, etc., as well as some units. I'd like to discuss some of the good and bad stuff altogether, in order to figure out what this Index can give to us IG/AM players who will not (necessarily) field a whole thematic army, i.e. a 100% DKK, Elysian, etc.

 

Very rapidly, as I still have to digest the Index completely. I noticed these goodies and not-so-goodies:

 

Winners:

• Artemia Hellhound: for a negligible point increase over the standard Hellhound, you get a significantly more reliable inferno cannon. What's not to like here? I'll hardly ever leave home without 1 of these and 1 Bane Wolf now.
• Artillery batteries and Carriages: honestly, these feel dirty. Sure, their profile is weaker than a standard artillery tank, but they are are also about 20% cheaper. And the main gun is the same, AND, unlike a tank, they do not degrade as they lose wounds. I'm definitely a fan of these. The saddest thing is that the OOP battery seems definitely better than the in-production and cooler-looking carriage. By the way, I don't think I ever moved my artillery anyway, so I really don't care if they cannot move around. They seem as powerful, if not even more powerful, than their tank version...especially the platform.
• Sabre weapons battery: you probably want the humble searchlight version here. For a mere 20 points, you can give +1 BS to *any* <regiment> unit *anywhere* on the field against a visible target within 48". Seems quite dirty. Who needs a master of ordnance anymore? And you could even couple it with a Trojan below. Dirty again? Luckily, there are not many of these around, but I bet we'll start to see more converted models...
• Tarantula: another cheap way to field twin-lascannon on a reasonably durable platform. Despite its targeting limitations, seems worth it.
• Aeronautica: most of the entries seem really powerful, with the Vulture shining. A pity that its sister aircraft does not seem so good, but there is hope: see below. Even the Officer of the Fleet now looks more interesting.
• DKK Death Riders: as we knew already, they are awesome. You must invest some points, as the minimum take seems to be 1 Officer, 1 Command squad, and possibly 1 regular squad. But they will rock almost guaranteed! Do not forget the demo charge on the officer for a mere 5 pts super-fun opportunity. They remain good on the second round as well thanks to the "fix bayonets!" order: DKK cavalry can receive it, which means that a unit can fight twice, once in the shooting phase and once in the combat phase. Makes power weapons/fists more attractive for sergeants over lances, probably. Berzerkers can suck our horses' enhanced dic*s anyway.
• DKK in general: despite some inconsistencies and some delusions, the list looks very viable to me, and finally costed reasonably. A wonderful alternative to standard guard, but beware: DKK is no more an entrenched siege army, but rather an assault army. More fun! Still, despite their 3+ WS, do not rely on the normal guys to do anything in melee.
• Elysian snipers: so...a team of these costs the same of a hobbit, still has BS 3+, but is more durable AND can take orders (from his own <regiment> commander only of course); it also has a small amount of extra dakka in the form of a lasgun per team it loses the hobbit move bonuses, but I'm not sure those were so great anyway. I believe we have a good competitor for some excellent sniping support here, or am I missing something? Extra (and important) goodie: models look way cooler than the horrible hobbits (and, sadly, way more expensive: conversion ideas anyone?).

 

Interesting:

• Vehicles-buffing vehicles: Salamander (Command version) and Trojan both provide powerful buffs to one nearby vehicle. They have different uses, also because the Salamander can Scout. The winner here, despite its cost, seems to be the Trojan, which gives twin-linked to any vehicle within 6", can mount a heavy flamer, and embark 6 models: put in a sws with 3x flamers and for around 150 pts you have a nice little buffing+countercharge unit. Something to try, although perhaps a risk for point-sink.
• Tauros Venator: not as cheap as I would expect, but probably among the cheapest ways to get that lovely twin lascannon. Seems definitely funny - sprint 15", still fire 2 hard-hitting shots at 4+, and even get an invulnerable save. Might even add a HK missile. I have one, will field one.
• Cyclops: again not that cheap, but much potential for fun here. I won't try them because I don't have the models, but perhaps someone can give a report?
• Co-axial LR: there are several, similar (and slightly confusing) ways to field a LR with a co-axial-buffed Conqueror or Vanquisher cannon. Basically, these come twin-linked within 24" or 36", and you don't even have to hit with the co-axial gun anymore. Both are obviously vastly superior to the standard Battle Cannon and Vanquisher tanks. Perhaps this is the way to field them now? LR remain very expensive though, so I'm still a bit perplexed. 
• Rapier laser destroyer: a bit of a gamble, but IF it hits you will love it. Not sure it's worth the cost though.
• Vendetta: it's not a disaster, but still a bit disappointing. It can potentially cause immense damage with its impressive guns, but accuracy seems a problem considering its cost. I believe it is meant to be used along with some of the buffs provided by other entries: while a bit tricky to implement and definitely a points-investment, give it the right support and it will be scary: first (opponent's) turn you get the -1 to be hit defensive bonus, then you hover and use your buffs to hit at BS 3+ (or similar) and blast away almost anything. Expensive, but potentially VERY scary, and still better than a LR probably.

Losers:

• My beloved Hades drill still seems to suck. I'll try to use it to deep-strike a (weaker than normal, for some odd reason) Vets squad, sooner or later, but I don't expect much. Ah, should I really bother? I have Scions who can do everything so much better and cheaper anyway. The truth is, I only want to unleash that drill on some juicy target...and probably be utterly frustrated by the outcome. 
• Armageddon pattern stuff: the old enclosed crew compartment upgrade. Pay more to get a tougher artillery piece. But, I'm a fan of quantity over quality - I don't think they are worth it. See above on carriages and platform for the really scary stuff.
• Fortifications: they seem completely pointless, as all fortifications in this edition. It's a good thing.

 

 

I'm not a big fan of super-heavies and big stuff in general, so I did not bother with those yet. Also, the Elysian list might have some more good stuff around. Renegades, I don't deal with heretics.

 

Overall, it seems we have some pretty powerful choices here, as well as generally an interesting selection of stuff. I'm very intrigued by the (at least 3: Salamander, Trojan, Sabre) different ways to give powerful buffs to some of our other units, but I'd better remind that quality has a price, and investing too much in these gadgets might take away a portion of our horde potential.

 

What do you think? Help me out here, it seems a very rich Index.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Feral_80

[Mitchverr]

I would agree on the DKK stuff getting turned up to 10 it seems especially for assault and aggression (it seems they looked at the books and decided to make kriegers into a new form of steel legion varient to me lol, at least forcing assault brigade to be defacto) and it keeps access to the more important artillery IE the heavy ortar and the quad launcher.

 

Am I just being "gooey eyed" with reguards to focusing on the grenadier assault centaur? Others say how they would rather min max with other units to do a simular role, but these seem to have an amazing use with grenadiers, the ability to scout forward, disembark and claim middle ground seems to be an exceptionally useful tool. I can see myself using these in games with important middle ground terrain, objectives, relics or simply to form a firebase from which I can have board control while other elements like death riders are still moving into position to launch their charges and your generic infantry is rushing forwards in a blob formation.

 

With them, given they seem to cost only slightly more than a DKK chimera as a squad plus centaur, I can see alot of potential with the ability to move 18 inches (ie 6 inches away from enemy zone most the time) and having rapid fire or having flamers etc, sadly no heavy stubber or heavy flamer because for some reason they cant take them anymore (models still being sold though...), hopefully is corrected.

 

 

With reguards to your comment on the DKK riders fighting twice on the charge, I am still fuzzy on how 8th works, but isnt the order given in the fight phase, when they are not fighting? Meaning that they cant fight till they charge and so only fight once? Or is it for units already engaged you mean?

 

I also agree on hades being rather lacking now, i can deal with it being less reliable and deadly, but why cant i take it with my engineers anymore? Why do i have to take terrible troopers with worse guns and armour? Speaking of, engineers for DKK are also looking very, VERY good, especially for big bug hunt jobs, but they sadly dont have their hades to suprise assault enemies now, I guess I could get them in centaurs.

 

 

My final issue is simply how DKK heavy weapon squads no longer get twin linked heavy stubbers, I want my twin linked heavy stubbers back! If they were in the list, it would be grand.

[Feral_80]

Yes, no twin stubbers and DKK Engineers losing the Hades is gross. Also because I had a squad of 10 of them with h.flamer and flamer, and I was looking forward to use them with a Hades now...ah well. We cannot have everything. The Index still looks good to me despite this and other flaws.

 

As for the order to the DKK Death Riders, Fix Bayonets is issued at the start of the shooting phase (as all other orders, unless specified otherwise). Which means that it only works on a unit that is already engaged (I should have specified this - I'll edit the original post). The only doubt I have is whether Riders are forced to give up shooting their pistol in combat when they are issued the order, to which I'd be inclined to answer 'yes'...no big deal anyway.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Feral_80

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Regarding the Artemia Hellhound. Now it's not specifically on the DKOK list of <regiment> type "DKOK" units... but I'm wondering, outside of the things related to Master of Ordnance (basilisks etc) and Tank Commander (leman russ) influence - does that really even matter at all?

 

Is there any disadvantage at all to taking a non "DKOK" regiment tank (other than those mentioned) as opposed to a "DKOK" one?

[micahwc]

80 points for an emplaced Earthshaker Battery seems pretty nice to me. I mean, it's not like you move your basilisks anyway. They don't even have a crew for some reason. Hydra batteries also seem decent. Your enemy has a bunch of models with the "fly" keyword? Say hello to 90 points of "F... yo flyers.". The manticore battery  is similar. Really, any of the batteries seem like a fun use of points.

 

The heavy quad launcher looks like fun. Str 5 can damage all but the absolute toughest enemies in the game, and you average 14 tries a turn. God forbid a character is the closest enemy  to one of these, as taking 4D6 shots is going to hurt a lot.

 

As for the Vendetta. Start on board with the extra protection of fly. On your turn switch to hover. Disembark an officer of the fleet. Have a support tank by if wanted for the reroll. Fire 6 lascannons at full BS with rerolling 1s and maybe a reroll. Even hovering it's still pretty survivable. Any anything that shoots at it isn't shooting at the rest of your army. It will be able to repeat this until it's taken 8 wounds at T7 with a 3+ save. 

 

Heavy bolter tarantulas are a good value at 28 points.  

[Withershadow]

Platforms and carriages were always cheaper. One thing people forget when comparing these is that the carriage can move and fire at a penalty if needed. The crew are indeed the weak point of artillery, though. That weakness I think makes it a fair compromise with the more expensive vehicle version. Platforms are indeed the better minmax choice for an immobile gunline. I'll stick to the crewed versions.

[Captain_Krash]

I'm in love with the Cyclops not only are they super cute!!!  But there very effective in area denial. Your opponent won't want to move within there threat range to risk detonating them. Very excited for Elysians in this edition that's for sure.

 

Krash

[Feral_80]

I realy can see no point in moving a carriage, give its enormous range. You are not going anywhere if they got it in close combat anyway, also because you are probably dead already. 

Also, not only platforms do not have crew. They have the great advantage of being able to still shoot while enemies are within 1", and your own units can shoot at that enemies also. I'm inclined to say that platforms are nearly broken for their point cost, and it's quite hilarious that they are oop models. I won't use nor proxy them anyway, but people could do it.

[Withershadow]

Regarding the Hades, I've had the same concerns and sent them to FW, who said they will forward it to the rules team. GW and FW don't pretend the internet doesn't exist anymore, so I'm sure there is a FAQ incoming.

 

For now, I'll use the Hades Veterans with 3+ BS/WS regular veteran statline, since the standard Guard profile is obviously a typo (they even cost 6 each). Much like the laser destroyer crew having space Marine S and T.

 

If building armies at matched play level, you could easily throw Krieg Engineers in there, which seems like it would be pretty effective. Sure won't fly at a tournament (unless cleared ahead of time with TO), but against regular or pickup opponents, should be fine (if they complain, counter that you could bring two more scion squads loaded with plasma instead).

[DarthWaffle]

Thoughts on Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter?

 

Thinking about fielding one over a Vanquisher.

[Mitchverr]

Thoughts on Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter?

 

Thinking about fielding one over a Vanquisher.

 

If I could get hold of the FW destroyer tank hunter I would field 1, its a lil pricey and random, but its also a very scary model for your enemy to think about and so they will focus on it while your other guys roam.

 

 

Now you got me thinking on the valdor again, it looks to be a very nice unit to use currently, though points wise is expencive.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Mitchverr

[DarthWaffle]

 

Thoughts on Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter?

 

Thinking about fielding one over a Vanquisher.

 

If I could get hold of the FW destroyer tank hunter I would field 1, its a lil pricey and random, but its also a very scary model for your enemy to think about and so they will focus on it while your other guys roam.

 

 

Now you got me thinking on the valdor again, it looks to be a very nice unit to use currently, though points wise is expencive.

 

 

Very Expencive :)

 

But such a sick model. I think I have an obsessions with specialized tank destroyer.

[micdicdoc]

After seeing the rules I am relieved to think I might not live to rue fielding a Valdor.

 

It's main problems from seventh were a mediocre BS for a one shot main gun, as well as seeming a little unreliable in damage output. In the current edition the former has been circumvented by having 2D3 hits, the latter being down to its very high strength of 14 and being able to roll two D6 for damage and choosing the highest.

 

With multiple hits and reliable damage output I think this tank will be a serious threat to enemy vehicles, perhaps even being able to one shot them. Overall I look forward to assembling, painting and fielding my Valdor after sitting unused for almost a year

[micdicdoc]

I have to also agree with @Feral in saying that tarantulas and the fixed artillery pieces are some of the winning stand outs of this FW index.

 

Tarantulas, Heavy Quad Launchers and Heavy Mortars are all so cheap let alone packing enough fire power to prove a real nuisance and concern for your opponent.

 

One build I plan to try is to take an aegis defence line shielding several squads of guardsmen with lascannons, with heavy mortars and quad launchers behind them. Dotted around the aegis will be tarantula sentry guns with lascannons. That's a lot of anti tank capability and anti infantry capability with which you should be able to dominate the centre field.

[micahwc]

I think the heavy quad launcher beats out the heavy mortar by a lot. 1 less strength for 3D6 more shots per turn seems like a good trade to me.

 

I guess it comes down to an average of 3.5 shots at S6, AP -1, damage D3 versus an average of 14 shots, S5, AP-, 1 damage. Although for 6 more points than a heavy mortar and required crew you can take an Earthshaker battery with S9, AP -2, same damage, and much better range. It also doesn't require crew. Seems like the Earthshaker is much better for hurting harder targets, and the Quad launcher is better for hitting softer targets.

[Karinon]

I think the Griffon is one of the winners in this. Heavy D6 and D3 damage, it rolls two dice and discards the lowest for hits, ignores cover and LoS and has strength 6. It's only 6pts more than the Heavy Mortar Carriage but that lacks the two hit dice and doesn't ignore cover, so it's a no-brainer. It's also 15pts cheaper than a Wyvern.

 

I also like the Macharius Vanquisher and Vulcan. Discount super-heavies for when you want an army to go with your superheavy detachment. A Vanquisher is 300pts cheaper than a fully tooled out Baneblade and still 100pts cheaper than a barebones one (with no sponsons) and the Vulcan is 60pts cheaper than a barebones Stormlord. Admittedly with the Vulcan you lose out on the transport and 5 shots if you move, but gain 10 shots if you stay still, so if you weren't planning on transporting something it could be the better choice.

 

The OP award goes to the Stormhammer. 150pts cheaper than a kitted out Baneblade (4x Twin Heavy Flamer sponsons) and it can still bring a main cannon, twin battle cannon, 5 lascannons, a Multi-laser and 2 heavy flamers for that price.

 

The losers in my eyes are the Malcador variants (except the Infernus). The vanilla Malcador is a worse Leman Russ for +60pts, it gets -1 to hit with its Battle Cannon and only has a 6 wound advantage. The Defender and Annihilator just seem too pricey for what they do.

[Withershadow]

I think the heavy quad launcher beats out the heavy mortar by a lot. 1 less strength for 3D6 more shots per turn seems like a good trade to me.

 

I guess it comes down to an average of 3.5 shots at S6, AP -1, damage D3 versus an average of 14 shots, S5, AP-, 1 damage. Although for 6 more points than a heavy mortar and required crew you can take an Earthshaker battery with S9, AP -2, same damage, and much better range. It also doesn't require crew. Seems like the Earthshaker is much better for hurting harder targets, and the Quad launcher is better for hitting softer targets.

Quad Launchers are S4 and have no AP last time I checked.  They are basically the same as Wyverns.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Withershadow

[micahwc]

Just looked, S5, no AP

[Withershadow]

Cool beans, must have misread it. 

[TheTrans]

I feel a vulcan macharius with a saber search light and a trojan support vehicle is going to be a deathy little unit!! Damage 2 on the vulcans shots are nuts!! 

[Gen.Steiner]

That's good news about the Griffons, I have two in my current Guard army. I do love 'em, and Ignores Cover is a nice little fillip, but the 2d6 discard lowest for hits is even better!

[Feral_80]

Not sure I get the reasons behind all of this excitement for the Griffon. Yes it's cheap, but it will kill...how many, perhaps 2 meq or 3 geq a turn? Mortar teams seem more efficient, Wyvern seems nastier, and Basilisk just way better (basically a flak 88) despite its price increase. We don't have that need for a light artillery like the Griffon.

[Gen.Steiner]

Cheap, reliable, low profile (easier to hide), and background-appropriate! :D

[Captain_Krash]

Hey Folks what's the ruling on the Macharius Heavy Tank?

 

Krash

[NatBrannigan]

I'm also trying to find out rules / costs / opinions on the Crassus Assault Transport?

 

So I have... acquired... the rules for this (but no points, power level is a good indication though!). Medals in the post for someone!

 

I love it! It can fire all it's weapons even if it advances and will nicely fit 11 Bullgryns (I want to use Nork as well, so will only have 11 models) with room for two supporting characters. Almost exactly the price of a Vendetta. For now I'm not sure what I'd put in it (No Bullgryns yet) because getting 35 Infantry near the enemy quickly seems like an excellent way to get 35 Infantry killed...

Edited June 27, 2017 by NatBrannigan