Company Veterans are the new black?

[Indefragable]

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

 

Vanguard vs SG vs Termies vs DC vs Vets

Hidden Content

5x Vanguard Vets w/ jump packs, twin lightning claws = 155pts

--16x S4 AP-2 attacks re-rolling To Wound

--3+ with 5W

--Ld9 w/ Sgt

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

 

5x Vanguard Vets 4x jump packs lightning claw + storm shield, Sgt twin LC = 159pts

--12x S4 AP-2 attacks, 4 of which can re-roll To Wound

--3+/3++ with 5W

--Ld9 w/ Sgt

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

 

5x Vanguard Vets w/ jump packs 5x TH/SS = 205pts

--11x S8 AP-3 D:3 (-1 To Hit for all of these)

--3+/3++ with 5W

--Ld9 w/ Sgt

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

 

5x Assault Terminators w/ twin lightning claws = 220pts

--16x S4 AP-2 attacks re-rolling To Wound

--2+/5++ 10W total

--Ld9 w/ Sgt

--Deep Strike

--Can displace once per game via Teleport Beacon

 

5x Assault Terminators w/ TH/SS = 280pts

--11x S8 AP-3 D:3

--2+/3++ 10W total

--Ld9 w/ Sgt

--Deep Strike

--Can displace once per game via Teleport Beacon

 

4x Sanguinary Guard w/ Encarmine Swords and Angelus bg = 176pts

--8x S4 AP-3 D:D3

--2+ 8W total

--Ld8

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

--bonus near Warlord

 

4x Sanguinary Guard w/ Encarmine Axes and Plasma pistols = 180pts

--8x S5 AP-2 D:D3

--2+ 8W total

--Ld8

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

--bonus near Warlord

 

4x Sanguinary Guard w/ Power fists and inferno pistols = 248pts

--8x S8 AP-3 D:D3, -1 To Hit

--2+ 8W total

--Ld8

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

--bonus near Warlord

 

5x Death Company w/ jump, 5x power sword + bolt pistols = 120pts

--On the Charge: 15x S4 AP-3 D:1 attacks

--3+, 5W total, 6+ chance to ignore any wounds

--Ld7

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

 

5x Death Company w/ jump, thunder hammers = 200pts

--On the Charge: 15x S8 AP-3 D:3 attacks, -1 To Hit

--3+, 5W total, 6+ chance to ignore any wounds

--Ld7

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

 

5x Company Veterans w/ jump, twin lightning claws = 145pts

--16x S4 AP-2 attacks re-rolling To Wound

--3+ with 5W

--Ld9 w/ Sgt

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

--Can sacrifice self for commander on a 2+

 

5x Company Veterans w/ jump, 4x LC + SS, Sgt twin LC = 149pts

--12x S4 AP-2 D:1 attacks, 4x of which re-roll To Wound

--3+/3++ with 5W

--Ld9 w/ Sgt

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

--Can sacrifice self for commander on a 2+

 

5x Company Veterans w/ jump, 4x TH/SS, Sgt w/ TH = 200pts

--11x S8 AP-3 D:3, , -1 To Hit

--3+/3++ with 5W

--Ld9 w/ Sgt

--12" Movement

--Deep Strike

--Can sacrifice self for commander on a 2+

 

 

Buffers:

Hidden Content

Chaplain w/ jump pack = 90pts for Ld 9 bubble and re-roll To Hit in Fight phase

Sanguinary Priest w/ jump pack = 86pts

LIbrarian w/ jump pack and Force Sword i= 128pts for the chance to give either a 4++ or +1A

Sanguinor = 170pts for +1A

Sanguinary Ancient = 106pts for Fearless and re-roll 1's To Wound in Combat

 

Analysis:

Company Veterans are the hidden gem here. They do everything Vanguard Vets can do, plus the whole "NOOOOOOOO" jump in front of a bullet thing for your precious HQ. And they do it for 5-10pts cheaper.

 

What makes Vanguard Vets/Company Vets stand out to me is the ability to take Storm Shields. having a reliable save against all weapons is the key. You are getting a 3++ against everything but mortal wounds. That is huge. And they're 5pts a pop. Don't forget that even Primaris bolt rifles are turning your precious Astartes into Scouts (AP-1), Cover will not protect you the way it did in 7th. Lascannons essentially turn the entire field into a bowling ball so that reliable 3++ just can not be overemphasized. The only real weakness for Company Vets is that they are capped at 5models/unit. Which will be such a problem when you need to get an extra CP from a Vanguard detachment <sarcasm>. If you really want more than 5x dudes/unit...Vanguard Vets do almost exactly the same thing for a piddling increase.

 

The classic problem for Sanguinary Guard remains: 2+ remains great against small arms....but let's face it, your enemy is probably not using lasguns on these guys. He is going to level his plasma, grav, melta, etc... against them which does not give a about 2+ armor. Sure you can buff them up with a 4++ from a Librarian....if you are willing to pay the extra 128pts for a jump pack one that still only has the chance to make that go off. Also, they are Leadership 8....compared to the Ld9 of Elite Sgts. The nipple armor must really effect self-esteem.

On a different note....always take plasma pistols. Seriously, it's 7pts for a PP and 8pts for an Angelus boltgun. Wha? Don't ask. Take the money and run. So....whereas in 7th they were the anti-MEQ bully, now they are the anti-multi-wound Elite bullies.

 

And in case it hasn't dawned on you yet, Death Company have been nerfed. Big time. Their saving grace in this equation is their cost: 24x melta bombs for 5x dudes with power swords. However, compare that to Lightning claws that not only give you the extra attack (and you don't need to charge for it), but also re-roll To Wound....which will be a MASSIVE advantage. Two places where they kind of stand out:

--All Thunder hammers for a suicide unit. But then again...Company vets can trade a few attacks for more resilience at exactly the same cost.

--All chainsword unit. Now for 100pts with jump packs, you're getting 20x S4 AP- D:1 attacks on the charge. For it's price, it's not a bad unit, but don't expect it to do work against the really scary units of the game.

 

And that leaves Terminators. No giant surprise here. TH/SS Termies are still the gold-standard of resilience with 2+/3++ and 10W in the unit. They will hold up against small arms AND AP-3+ weapons. Of course that comes with trade off of a 5" movement which can be hard to fit into the red-wuns-go-fastah model of the BA. Overall probably a good distraction carnifex in the backfield, the anvil to pin the enemy in place with, or be totally original and throw them in a Land Raider and send them at the enemy.

LC Termies would be the idea anti-blob units (of this comparison) considering the number of armor-ignoring, re-rolling To Wound, attacks they can get, plus the 2+ 2W is just a real PITA to remove. However, the mobility is the big draw back here which would make me lean towards VV/CV again.

 

X-Factors:

Hidden Content

But of course 8th Edition is about those precious 6" dudes (no jokes please).

 

Sanguinary Priests are a must-have this edition. If that's not obvious, well......it should be. No nicer way to say that. The +1S is a big deal, but the more you think about it, it becomes an even bigger deal. Power Swords that are S5 completely ruin MEQ. S5 twin Lightning Claws = Oh nelly! S9 Thunder Hammers are suddenly wounding all those T8 vehicles on a 3+. Even Mephiston's Sanguine Sword becomes S11 which.....ok, maybe that one doesn't make a huge difference. A Jump pack means these guys can go anywhere in the game, with any unit. Deep Striking Terminators? Sang Priest w/ JP can be right there with them, etc...

 

Lemartes turns DC up a notch. In an edition where being the Charger as opposed to the Chargee can have huge ramnifications, re-rolling Charge distances is massive. Re-rolling To Hit in the Fight phase is great as well, of course. But here's the question: why not save the points spent on DC for more DC Dreadnoughts? Think about it for a second. DC Dreads are going to be our greatest distraction carnifexes, helping to pull plasma away from every unit in the above list. Lemmy's buffs work with Dreads as well. Hmmmmm.

 

Commander Dante + Lightning Claw units = the last word in MEQ/GEQ decimation.

 

Speaking of Dante.....Death Masks have been more useful, but that does not make Sanguinary Guard suddenly worth taking. Just the opposite, in fact. Since the wording of Death Masks says "...within 3" of any Death Masks," that means that Dante/Sanguinor have even less synergy with the goldenboys. And you're probably going to be taking either Dante or the Sanguinor anyways.

 

 

 

Parting Words:

To me, Company Veterans are the clear winners here because they are slightly better Vanguard Vets. And the reason Vanguard Vets are so good is that they among the most self-reliant units available at the moment. They are mobile, they have high Ld (equal to that of a commander) and with Lightning Claws, they are re-rolling To Wound meaning you can eliminate the need for a Sanguinary Ancient hanging around. Plus the never-been-more-important (or cheaper) storm shields. Throw in Dante (if you can spare the points) or a Captain, and you eliminate the need for a Chaplain, Librarian, and Sanguinary Ancient, thus saving you a crapload of points. Add Sanguinary Priest + Sanguinor to taste as with all units.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

EDITS: spelling, punctuation, grammar, ain't nobody got time for that!

Edited June 26, 2017 by Indefragable

[Xenith]

Great break down, thanks! Looks like I have to make some now vets...

[Fallenturtle]

The one thing that you didn't factor in as well in the "hidden" section, was the importance of our banners. For instance, around a sanguinary ancient, moral doesn't matter as well as you are re rolling 1's to wound (a  big deal)  Terminator ancient adds 1 to all leadership in the bubble and re rolls failed to hit (again, also really good)

 

now, if you factor that into each of the units, each one still has their merits at what they are "good at" which, in my opinion, is how you have to go about listbuilding something that's not Flyer spam.

[Thoridon]

I've been thinking similarly, looking at my TH/SS Terminators and wondering if I'd really want to use them.

 

With the reduction in cost for the weapons and shields a TH/SS Terminator is now 13 points more expensive than the same equipped Company or Vanguard Vet. That extra 13 points gives you:

• -7" Move (5" vs 12")
• +1 Armour Save (2+ vs 3+)
• +1 Wound (2W vs 1W)

A TH/SS unit is going Monster hunting. In that situation the 2+ save of the Terminator is fairly pointless, as anything hitting back with even 1 AP will just be triggering the Storm Shield. Similarly most/all monster types do multiple damage per wound, so the 2nd wound will be more or less irrelevant unless the enemy has D3 or D6 damage and keeps rolling 1s. It seems backwards to me but the only place I see the Terminator armour and wound increase being beneficial is against horde targets that do a fixed 1 damage per wound and have no AP - and in that case you wouldn't be wanting the TH/SS but a pair of Lightning Claws.

 

The slow movement is an issue when the cheaper Vets can zip around the battlefield with their jump packs to respond to different threats. Terminators are more of a "Drop off the transport here, spend the rest of the fght in this area" kind of unit.

 

For me I think my TH/SS Terminators will be benched. I'll either be using DC with Hammers for the higher damage output (the extra attack) or Vets with TH/SS for the extra durability the 3++ provides. As you say, if you take 5-man units you might as well make them Company Vets for the character save if they'd be running with a character and Vanguard if you want a bigger squad or don't plan to have characters with them for -1 pt per model.

 

The Sergeant from the Vet units is obviously a little different, not getting the SS but having access to pistols or combi-weapons instead, but that's a nice little bit of flexibility.

 

When it comes to anti-horde I'll have to see, but given the cost of a LC/LC Terminator compared to DC with Bolter/Chainswords I suspect the extra DC bodies would still be much more efficient.

 

I'm just struggling to see a need for assault terminators this edition.

[Poppaby]

Ive been using THSS since day one of 8th and they are a must take imo. The extra wound makes a huge difference

[Charlo]

 

I'm just struggling to see a need for assault terminators this edition.

 

It's just all about the 2+/3++ and 2W. They're probably one of the toughest walls in the game now. Plus you can revive ones with a priest etc.

 

==========

 

Looking at SG, maybe the best place for them now is in a Storm Raven. You can fit a 4 man squad, Ancient and another character (Priest) in there all with packs to mean that you are GETTING that T2 charge on whatever your want short of the bird being blown up.

 

Give them plasma and a mix of your preferred weapons and go to town.

[Xenith]

But as per Thoridon, the big beasts that are the 'ideal' targets for termies all do multiwounds, making the 2W termies a little redundant, in combat atleast. I think the 2W is a huge benefit in shooting resilience, meaning more terms will actually make it co combat.

 

All this is really making want to put together a unit of THSS vets.

 

 

 

The slow movement is an issue when the cheaper Vets can zip around the battlefield with their jump packs to respond to different threats. Terminators are more of a "Drop off the transport here, spend the rest of the fght in this area" kind of unit.

 

Dont forget that Indomitus terms can take a free teleport homer, allowing them to warp back to your deploment zone anytime you want. It could save their bacon if you get into a bad fight, or want to shift your battle line, or respond to an enemy breakthrough.

 

As an aside, do we know why Assault terms are 5pts more expensive base than shooty terms? I mean, theres no reason for this as you pay for weapons separately. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Xenith

[Charlo]

Probably to account for the fact that Storm Shields are so cheap or something.

 

Great point on Big Targets dealing multiple D back to Terminators and SG - it's exactly what I was thinking. Why send them against a target that completely negates their benefits?

 

Vets are better as sure, you fail a 3++ but you only lose a single 1W model as D doesn't spill over. They also work out nice with a priest as he brings back a full model, as opposed to one with half strength. Same applies to SG too.

 

SG & TDA seem to be best at hunting tanks and heavy shooty infantry these days (chop the shooty), things that can't fight back in a meaningful, high damage way (monsters, other elite CC specialists with multiple D weapons). Bikers are a great example target actually.

 

All said and done though, between their shooting and D3 damage weapons the SG are probably worth throwing at a big monster if you can. As I said above with a Raven the ideal situation means you can land and unleash hell from your wrist and then charge in and decimate anything.

[Xenith]

On the other hand, the Hammers are ideal for smashing apart multiwound beasts - 10 hammer attacks should be 6 hits, 4 wounds, 12 damage, enough to kill a tyranid beast in one round. You just have to make sure you go first, and stripping enough wounds from it means the attacks back won't be as scary.

 

The unit I'm really looking at to do some damage this edition are the combibolter/chainfist cataphractiis.

[Charlo]

On the other hand, the Hammers are ideal for smashing apart multiwound beasts - 10 hammer attacks should be 6 hits, 4 wounds, 12 damage, enough to kill a tyranid beast in one round. You just have to make sure you go first, and stripping enough wounds from it means the attacks back won't be as scary.

 

The unit I'm really looking at to do some damage this edition are the combibolter/chainfist cataphractiis.

 

Hopefully we get them for reals when the codex drops. I'm in love with that damn unit. Pop a heavy flamer on too for some fun times.

[Thoridon]

Aye, SG feel like the "jack of all trades" melee unit in 8th. Throw them at monsters and they'll utilise the multiple-D weapons but the 2nd wound is likely to be bypassed if the target hits back. Throw them at units with single-D melee weapons and the 2nd wound will come into play but the multiple-D weapons might be under utilised, depending on the wounds of the target unit. There will always be a unit 'better' against a specific target type but they can take everything on.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Thoridon

[Indefragable]

The one thing that you didn't factor in as well in the "hidden" section, was the importance of our banners. For instance, around a sanguinary ancient, moral doesn't matter as well as you are re rolling 1's to wound (a big deal) Terminator ancient adds 1 to all leadership in the bubble and re rolls failed to hit (again, also really good)

 

now, if you factor that into each of the units, each one still has their merits at what they are "good at" which, in my opinion, is how you have to go about listbuilding something that's not Flyer spam.

Noted about the banners. The point I was trying to make is to compare the "raw" material of how each unit stacks against each other. +1LD is good regardless of the unit is on, etc...

 

Speaking of banners, the Sanguinary Ancient tops all, hands-down. IMO it is such a clear cut winner it's not even a contest. Why have +1Ld when you can remove the need for Ld altogether? AND getting to re-roll 1's To Wound in combat? The Sang Ancient can also Deep Strike so anything a Termie Ancient can do, the Sang Anc can do as well, while moving quicker. If the T Anc could take a SS to survive longer, he may have a use.

[terminatorAM]

Wow, this is an awesome analysis! It really paints a clear picture for which units are more effective at certain roles.

 

The one question I have is are jump packs more effective than a Rhino? With how much vehicles have improved in 8th, I'm debating loading up my close combat units and sacrificing a little movement for more survivability the first turn or two. What are other people's thoughts about this?

[Crimson Ghost IX]

So much good info in here *nod.

 

On the Rhino vs Jump Pack = I say why not take both. 

You have to have 1/2 your stuff on the table after all and the metal bawskes have alot going for em. Better than ever with 8th prolly.

Having places to multideploy units in transports is handy also.

 

The Rhino is an awesome transport. Double those storm bolters for a couple points and run over to visit the enemy.

 

What's in that Rhino there? - Just a few Death Company with enough thunderhammer to be a concern... (So I can drop melta my verterans if I wanna)

Edited June 28, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Double Post but wanted to discuss Melta Company Veterans with jump packs.

4 melta guns and combi-melta on Sgt wreck face on the drop @ 182 pts.

You could add SS and maybe a thunderhammer if you would like.

 

I am liking them as "rear screen" mixed 2nd/3rd line when dropping with characters (they can tank char wounds as needed also). They are a formidable fire support unit with a 12 inch range. With Melta being rather harder to get because of GW shenanigans, I think this is my preferred load out for them currently for weapon access reasons.

 

If they get a 2nd round or more of melta shooty = gravy.

 

Perhaps let the Vanguard do the SS and charging bit says I. They are plenty good at it.

 

===ENEMY===

      9 inches

===Vanguard/DC===

===Buff Chars===

===Melta Vets===

 

It has a nice target saturation effect on the enemy also coming down on the flank etc.

 

Oh and re-rolls are good indeed. That Company Ancient with JP shoot a last time if you get killed buff is tempting also for even moar face melting in a hot LZ.

 

Just my thoughts. Not heavily tested or any such thing but wanted to share something I think will be good.

 

The cup is well over half full brothers!! So many choices.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Quixus]

I'm currently on the fence whether to take

Company Veterans [10 PL, 202pts]: Jump Pack
. . Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Meltagun
. . Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Meltagun
. . Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Meltagun
. . Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Meltagun
. . Veteran Sergeant: Combi-melta, Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Thunder hammer

 

and

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 151pts]: Jump Pack
. . Space Marine Veteran: Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Power sword, Storm shield
. . Space Marine Veteran: Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Power sword, Storm shield
. . Space Marine Veteran: Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Power sword, Storm shield
. . Space Marine Veteran: Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Power sword, Storm shield
. . Veteran Sergeant: Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

or two of:

 

Company Veterans [10 PL, 186pts]: Jump Pack
. . Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Meltagun
. . Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Meltagun
. . Space Marine Veteran: Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Power sword, Storm shield
. . Space Marine Veteran: Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Power sword, Storm shield
. . Veteran Sergeant: Combi-melta, Frag grenade, Krak grenade, Thunder hammer

 

They would be accompanied by a priest and possibly a librarian.

 

Thoughts?

 

How about exchanging all the melta weapons with flamers for CQB horde control?

 

Concerning Sanguinary Guard, why would they ever take Angelus Bolters? They seem too expensive for what they do.

[Xenith]

I'm currently on the fence whether to take...

 

 

Why don't you put storm shields on all the company vets?

 

Or give the company vets in the first choice meltagun + power sword?

[Quixus]

 

I'm currently on the fence whether to take...

 

 

Why don't you put storm shields on all the company vets?

 

Or give the company vets in the first choice meltagun + power sword?

 

I think storm shield and special weapon looks silly, especially on JP marines. And I did not want to spend that much on equipment.

[Spagunk]

I can't decide if I want to re-tool my old command squad I had planned (storm shields, melta/plasmaguns [magnets to swap]) with combi-meltas/plasmas since it's only 2 points more for a more versatile squad.

[Charlo]

Storm shields are so cheap and matter so much in this edition that I'd always advocate taking them.

 

Maybe use boarding shields so the special weapons look better?

[dread05]

What kit contains the right arms to equip special weapons + storm shields? I have a sternguard 10x arms bits incoming, but somehow I dont think they'll do. Maybe vanguard vets kit?

 

I have in mind to build x4 company vets with plasma guns, 1 srgt with combi plasma and one captain with combi plasma, all with jump packs. Does it sound good? I have a side thought to change the combi plasma's with combi melta's and add a power fist to the sarge and a relic blade to the captain. Really, I have so many ideas for a single squad, I have no idea what I'm gonna do. I just keep ordering bits.

 

I wrote vanguard vets, what I meant was company vets

Edited June 28, 2017 by dread05

[Quixus]

There should be plenty of kits with pistol arms. Just glue the special weapon to a pistol arm and take a shield arm for the other side. If you have spare money take the breacher kit, Charlo suggested.

[Indefragable]

 

 

I'm currently on the fence whether to take...

 

 

Why don't you put storm shields on all the company vets?

 

Or give the company vets in the first choice meltagun + power sword?

 

I think storm shield and special weapon looks silly, especially on JP marines. And I did not want to spend that much on equipment.

 

 

I'd rather be the last man standing and look silly than be dead and not have that option. = corollary to "Rule of Cool."

 

 

In terms of kits, a combo of Sternguard and Vanguard should serve you well. Both have blinged-out bodies, the Sternguard gives a ton of shooty weapons (duh) and the Vangurd give 5x SS, 10x LC, 5x TH, 5x jump packs and a crapload of other weapons.

 

Creative ways to "just add storm shield" to models:

-on the elbow (like the guy pushed his arm through the wrist-strap to free up his other hand

-on the backpack (like it's stowed there while he's aiming a two-handed weapon

-rest the barrel of the rifle on the corner of it so it looks like he's intentionally aiming it

-cut up the SS and turn it into a gun-shroud, ala the inceptors or Blackbeard*

*

Hidden Content

http://media.kotaku.foxtrot.future.net.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2016/05/rainbow-sig-siege-blackbeard.png

[dread05]

When I wrote arms, I literally meant the arms (as in hands) not the weapons :P I find that I have a great shortage of the proper arms to attachs weapons to.

[Xenith]

What kit contains the right arms to equip special weapons + storm shields? I have a sternguard 10x arms bits incoming, but somehow I dont think they'll do. Maybe vanguard vets kit?

 

 

Get the vanguard kit. All the left and right arms come without hands attached, so you can add whatever weapons you like.

 

You might get some weird meltagun poses though, as most of the right arms are in aggressive choppy poses.

 

 

I think storm shield and special weapon looks silly, especially on JP marines. And I did not want to spend that much on equipment.

 

I can't help with your aesthetic leanings, but you can drop the TH on the serge to get 4x storm shields. 

 

That said, 9pts a model to give each a sword and shield is pretty sweet - I'd make a unit of these at least.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Xenith