smhf15 Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 I was looking at the High Marshal's profile and noticed his Crusade of Wrath rule is +1S for MODELS within 6". Does anyone know if this is a typo (i've heard of differences between the physical copy and digital ones)? It seems a little odd because I think every other aura type rule affects units instead of models... Assuming this is not a mistake, how are you using him since it limits his effectiveness with those large crusader squads or buffing multiple units. Are you thinking of sticking him with LC Assault Terminators to get back the reroll hit/reroll wound S5 awesomeness of 4th? Honor Guard in a Rhino (small enough to keep everyone together)? Or still sticking him with the Crusader Squad then just dealing with the split strength? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 (edited) I wager it is a deliberate wording. Unit rather than Model would be monstrously overpowered, I think. You can maximize it by running him with elite units like Terminators, Vanguard and the like, but even adding +1 to all the nearby Initiates can make a big difference. When I write my new lists, it almost always has Helbrecht in an LRC with either a trio of 5 man Crusader Squads armed to the teeth, or a big squad of nasty Vanguard, Company Vets, etc. Edited June 26, 2017 by Firepower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 It is not a mistake. All the really powerful rules like that are models, see Grimaldus and Kantor for other examples. But remember that in a melee, 6" is pretty huge and models are under no obligation to try and make btb anymore. Only that they go towards the closest enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 (edited) I wager it is a deliberate wording. Unit rather than Model would be monstrously overpowered, I think. You can maximize it by running him with elite units like Terminators, Vanguard and the like, but even adding +1 to all the nearby Initiates can make a big difference. When I write my new lists, it almost always has Helbrecht in an LRC with either a trio of 5 man Crusader Squads armed to the teeth, or a big squad of nasty Vanguard, Company Vets, etc. Girlyman is overpowered.... S+1 could be 12" and wouldnt be overpowered... but all units in 6" re-roll!!!!!!!! We are one of the best Chapters in game because we can shoot better then other Space Marines... But GW says that melee armys.... Edited June 26, 2017 by Medjugorje Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I wager it is a deliberate wording. Unit rather than Model would be monstrously overpowered, I think. You can maximize it by running him with elite units like Terminators, Vanguard and the like, but even adding +1 to all the nearby Initiates can make a big difference. When I write my new lists, it almost always has Helbrecht in an LRC with either a trio of 5 man Crusader Squads armed to the teeth, or a big squad of nasty Vanguard, Company Vets, etc. Girlyman is overpowered.... S+1 could be 12" and wouldnt be overpowered... but all units in 6" re-roll!!!!!!!! We are one of the best Chapters in game because we can shoot better then other Space Marines... But GW says that melee armys.... All the Marshals grant re-rolls of 1 for all UNITS within that 6" bubble... that has helped me quite a bit as he can just brush behind them while engaging something else and those units will gain Preferred Enemy... and as for Chaplains... it's the same, except it's a general reroll everything... You could just view the 6" reroll for Guilliman (tbh Idk his rules...) as a Chaplain bubble... melee strength in 8th, as I'm starting to slowly learn, is found in synchronicity within your army... getting certain characters within range of certain units and using and remembering their rules can lead to an advantage or disadvantage in the battlefield, for example, Helbrecht... putting him with a bunch of Thunder Hammers will enable those TH to strike down even Toughness 8 with a 3+, putting him right next to an Emperor's Champion makes the EC S8 against any characters that he face, giving him 2+ to Wound even against MEQ... we have strengths... just gotta learn to use it... We ain't Khorne Berzerkers, or Green-skin Xenos breed... we have to learn unit placement and target priority much much more this edition as only certain units have special rules to boost even our elite troops... Either that, or wait for Chapter Tactics to drop... and if you think we're bad, think of the Iron Hands who don't even have a specialized character to boost their army in a specialized way... they have to get Apothecaries to represent their "Feel No Pain" from the old days :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I wager it is a deliberate wording. Unit rather than Model would be monstrously overpowered, I think. You can maximize it by running him with elite units like Terminators, Vanguard and the like, but even adding +1 to all the nearby Initiates can make a big difference. When I write my new lists, it almost always has Helbrecht in an LRC with either a trio of 5 man Crusader Squads armed to the teeth, or a big squad of nasty Vanguard, Company Vets, etc. Girlyman is overpowered.... S+1 could be 12" and wouldnt be overpowered... but all units in 6" re-roll!!!!!!!! We are one of the best Chapters in game because we can shoot better then other Space Marines... But GW says that melee armys.... I'm sorry but what is your point? RG is a primarch, with the price tag to show for it, he should be awesome and buff the hell out of UM. Regardless this thread is about Helbrecht and his +1 S buff. I don't think some of you guys realize just how big a 6 inch bubble is, even with only models being affected. So I made an example here so we can get a real idea. http://i.imgur.com/JxO3k9W.jpg?1 Each one of those guys is within 6", as you can see it's huge. To me if you can't fit everyone who can swing in that bubble, you either have half your army involved or Helbrecht isn't in the same combat Helias_Tancred, Brother Chaplain Ryld, KhorneHunter57x and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Guilliman is also more than double the price of Helbrecht. Apples and oranges. You may as well say Helbrecht is bad because Imperial Knights are so good. Acebaur and Helias_Tancred 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 6" might not seem like much but just today I ended up with him and a crusader squad surrounding a russ. He was on one side and the whole squad was still within the 6" bubble so wounded it on 5s rather than 6s. Grimaldus buffs units in six, but his ability is only useful if it's affecting a lot of models. Helbrecht's rule is all about putting the right models in the right spot. Heck I just cut him from one list because I felt he might not really add that much although I might try and re add him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Wolfhart Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Helbrecht's +1 is all the value we need to make use of the new wound table. That 1 incresae tends to mean the difference between 4+ and 3+, rarely (EC comes to mind) even 2+. Powerfist versus t8 monsters or vehicles, chainswords and powerswords against other MEQ go to 3+. That is an awesome increase, also Helbrecht himself is an utter beast in combat. Even if only a few models are affected in a unit it's a serious advantage, one only has to make sure it's the right models, i.e. the special melee weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilamandaros Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 It is not a mistake. All the really powerful rules like that are models, see Grimaldus and Kantor for other examples. But remember that in a melee, 6" is pretty huge and models are under no obligation to try and make btb anymore. Only that they go towards the closest enemy. Grimaldus is units, which is why I prefer him overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balordazul Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Don't forget that they don't just want to make Helbretch a BA priest and his re-roll to hit for both melee and range attacks for units is huge. It see the +1S going back to BT codex when Helbretch's command squad could get Furious Charge as an updated interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) Guilliman is also more than double the price of Helbrecht. Apples and oranges. You may as well say Helbrecht is bad because Imperial Knights are so good. I think you all dont understand what i mean ( maybe because of my bad english ). I mean that Guilliman have to cost 500 or more points and Helbrecht too(he should cost 300 points if he is played like I said before). But he is quite better behind shooting units then behind Stormterminators... Try it, you will see. Edited June 27, 2017 by Medjugorje Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spanish Inquisitor Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 According to GW, points costs will be modificated yearly anyway. When codexes drop, it will probably change. +1 S with Helbrecht is very good. It's even overpowered in the case of full crusaders squads with chainswords. It's simple: I ran two full crusaders squads, the first with Helbrecht didn't lose any model, while the other one got a hard time against his targets in CC. I am sure Big H can even take down an unit on his own in CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 In my game the other night, Helbrecht killed 4 terminators on the charge :lol: balordazul, BT_Cennar, Stemplar and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. Depends on who gets it... Emperor's Champion is my vote as the best contestant on who gets the most benefit, as his Sword now has rerolls, S7/8 and deals multiple damage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. Depends on who gets it... Emperor's Champion is my vote as the best contestant on who gets the most benefit, as his Sword now has rerolls, S7/8 and deals multiple damage... It's also almost 300 points of characters, they'd better do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciler Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. Which powers, specifically ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I say that the games are very funny and the buffs are very good if you play them like Templars should do. But if you have an Shootylist you have not to go in combat because there isnt an enemy anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontakt Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. I would like to point out that it is +1 strength AND rerolls to hit. Strength 5 means that anything in the game can be wounded on a 5+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyD4rkPassenger Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) Has anyone considered running a chaplain dreadnought near Helbrecht? Would both of the +1 Str bonuses stack alongside big H giving the rerolls to the dreadnought? Edited June 27, 2017 by MyD4rkPassenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. Depends on who gets it... Emperor's Champion is my vote as the best contestant on who gets the most benefit, as his Sword now has rerolls, S7/8 and deals multiple damage... It's also almost 300 points of characters, they'd better do something. So? Points wise it's cheaper and much better than the 7th edition counterpart in terms of just sheer damage dealt in melee... oh, and in 7th, it's above 300 pts. for the both of them, and the Champion is only decent against characters, not Monstrous Creatures and just a few Characters, not even the named ones... while Helbrecht's ability is a one time use and the Sword of the High Marshals can barely scratch anything... also the combi-melta can't even be used more than once, so you fluff that, and he's just got a bolter... in 8th edition, the EC has much more wounds, he can dish out heaps of damage to characters and monstrous creatures in melee, Helbrecht can boost heaps around him, including vehicles, and Dorn's reforged Sword finally makes it's mark, the meltagun can also be fired multiple times instead of once, useful for damaging some armor in Helbrecht's vicinity... So... wanna go back to 7th? A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. I would like to point out that it is +1 strength AND rerolls to hit. Strength 5 means that anything in the game can be wounded on a 5+ S5 definitely does not mean you hit anything on a 5+... quite the opposite, you Wound majority of MEQ on a 3+, you wound T5 models (bike I guess...) on a 4+ and everything else is the same as before... Shooting games aren't good either... I tried it and if you're faced with a melee-centric army (Tyranids) and try to play Tau, you'll get slaughtered... you have to play the balance well this edition... Bolters don't do as much damage as you think, especially since they took off the AP value... a decently sized Gaunt squad can roll over a shooty Templar squad if you don't get the advantage of the charge, Monstrous Creatures are terribly hard to kill even with Heavy Weapons (3 Lascannons only 3 damage, YAY :p) and even the usually effective Flamer spam isn't effective anymore against Nids (or possible horde armies in general) as they only do a max of 6 hits per turn, regardless of how close knitted the bugs are... Completely OVERPOWERING enemies is quite impossible for anyone at this phase of the edition... if you are being overpowered, then you might be doing something wrong, or their dice are just that hot... Firepower 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 I think he meant to say that you can wound anything in the game on at least a 5+ as nothing as of yet(except maybe FW LoW) is above T8 yet. Kontakt 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilamandaros Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Has anyone considered running a chaplain dreadnought near Helbrecht? Would both of the +1 Str bonuses stack alongside big H giving the rerolls to the dreadnought? No rule to say you can't stack similar buffs from characters. The chaplain dreadnought is also hilarious as he is a character with only 9 wounds - "Look out there's a huge death machine lumbering towards us, open fire before it gets close!" ... "Sorry sir there's a single space marine left in combat 10 feet to our left, no can do..." Why the character rule is definitely one of 8th editions failings, should just be if the character is within 3" of another enemy unit they can't be targeted IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmightyWalrus Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. Depends on who gets it... Emperor's Champion is my vote as the best contestant on who gets the most benefit, as his Sword now has rerolls, S7/8 and deals multiple damage... It's also almost 300 points of characters, they'd better do something. So? Points wise it's cheaper and much better than the 7th edition counterpart in terms of just sheer damage dealt in melee... oh, and in 7th, it's above 300 pts. for the both of them, and the Champion is only decent against characters, not Monstrous Creatures and just a few Characters, not even the named ones... while Helbrecht's ability is a one time use and the Sword of the High Marshals can barely scratch anything... also the combi-melta can't even be used more than once, so you fluff that, and he's just got a bolter... in 8th edition, the EC has much more wounds, he can dish out heaps of damage to characters and monstrous creatures in melee, Helbrecht can boost heaps around him, including vehicles, and Dorn's reforged Sword finally makes it's mark, the meltagun can also be fired multiple times instead of once, useful for damaging some armor in Helbrecht's vicinity... So... wanna go back to 7th? How does any of that have any bearing on whether a +1S in melee aura is OP in 8th or not? A +1 strength bonus to CC attacks is hardly OP. Compare it to the multitude of buffs you can get out of various psychic powers or other Characters. Which powers, specifically ? Hammerhand is a closely similar example, giving one GK unit within 12" +1 to all wound rolls (which is better than +1S) in melee until the next turn. Warptime for Chaos lets a unit get an extra movement phase, which is huge. They also get a +1 to hit power which is great. Slaanesh daemons can get additional combat phases, Tzeentch daemons get strength or attacks for a combat phase and so on. None of these are anywhere near OP, so I don't see how Helbrecht would be OP with a unit buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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