Helbrecht in 8th - Crusade of Wrath

[balordazul]

You all are aware that BA does have Blood Chalice and The Red Grail both are separate rules that both give +1 S to all BA units within 6".  So unless GW FAQs it as they are separate rules and neither of them state that they exclude the other we are going to see some BA units with +2 S. 

 

I don't believe that this was GWs goal here as it is a copy paste set of wording but they have no applied that The Red Grail contains the rule Blood Chalice.  I expect to see BA players holding firm that these are two different aura buffs.  

 

The core rules do state that characteristic modifiers are cumulative.  

Edited June 27, 2017 by balordazul

[Firepower]

You all are aware that BA does have Blood Chalice and The Red Grail both are separate rules that both give +1 S to all BA units within 6".  So unless GW FAQs it as they are separate rules and neither of them state that they exclude the other we are going to see some BA units with +2 S. 

 

I don't believe that this was GWs goal here as it is a copy paste set of wording but they have no applied that The Red Grail contains the rule Blood Chalice.  I expect to see BA players holding firm that these are two different aura buffs.  

 

The core rules do state that characteristic modifiers are cumulative.  

 

I don't understand the relevance.  But as an aside, let the BA have their +2.  They deserve it :)

[balordazul]

Sorry I must of misunderstood I thought the question was dealing with units getting +1 S vs models and that it was uncommon.  I had a crazy baby crawling all over me and must have looked at this wrong.

 

Anyways in the only game that I have used Helbrecht in this edition he was great.  I have been using him in almost all of my games after we lost our codex, more out of BT pride.  I knew he looked good on paper but was very satisfying on the table top.  

 

I used the EC with Grim but planning on having Helbrecht and EC as an auto for me personally and start to play around with different lists from there.

Edited June 28, 2017 by balordazul

[smhf15]

I looked up Ghazghkull in the Ork book and he does the same thing.  It's a unit buff for charging and a model buff for extra attacks.  Between that and the Chaplin Dread having the same 6" model wording makes me think it was written as intended (just relatively uncommon to apply only to model).

 

That being said, it just means you need to get the High Marshal stuck into the flight where he belongs :)

[The Spanish Inquisitor]

You all are aware that BA does have Blood Chalice and The Red Grail both are separate rules that both give +1 S to all BA units within 6".  So unless GW FAQs it as they are separate rules and neither of them state that they exclude the other we are going to see some BA units with +2 S. 

  

 

Yep but BA can't have 20 men squads. 

[balordazul]

 

You all are aware that BA does have Blood Chalice and The Red Grail both are separate rules that both give +1 S to all BA units within 6".  So unless GW FAQs it as they are separate rules and neither of them state that they exclude the other we are going to see some BA units with +2 S. 

  

 

Yep but BA can't have 20 men squads. 

 

Not Death Company?  +2 S and +2 attacks from psychic power and character auras for 6 attacks on the charge with a chainsword.  But we are talking about a crazy amount of points in HQs and huge already costly unit.  Not really doable but fun to think about. 

 

Anyways this is off topic so back on topic.

 

Helbrecht is AWESOME 

Edited June 28, 2017 by balordazul

[KhorneHunter57x]

I think he meant to say that you can wound anything in the game on at least a 5+ as nothing as of yet(except maybe FW LoW) is above T8 yet.

Some Fortifications are T9 or 10.

 

I know we left them behind with our yellow paint, but still...

[Kontakt]

 

I think he meant to say that you can wound anything in the game on at least a 5+ as nothing as of yet(except maybe FW LoW) is above T8 yet.

Some Fortifications are T9 or 10.

 

I know we left them behind with our yellow paint, but still...

 

Most fortifications are less than T8 or 9. Against T9 fortifications, any of your power fists are now S9. As an example, heavy bolters in the guard are seeing a resurgance in light of the new wound mechanics due to also being str 5. If your opponent is paying the huge number of points for T9 or T10 fortifications, then he will have less army to kill. Shouldn't be a problem for a balanced army 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Kontakt

[Ciler]

I'm thinking of running our High Marshal with an assault terminator squad in either :

- a storm raven : 5 man TH/SS squad with added dreadnought for a huge impact turn two and a vehicle that is very hard to neutralise (but a horrendous point sink)

- a LRC : 7 man (4 TH/SS, 3 LC)

 

9 or 11 S9 AP -3 D3 hammer hits will make short work of just about anything since hits will be 3+ reroll and wounds 3+.  LCs will be 9 S5 AP-2 D1 hits that reroll to hit and to wound.

 

Do you see objections to either ?

 

On a side note, we all agree that Helbrecht is effectively always S5, since he is affected by his own aura, and thus strikes at S6 with the Sword of the High Marshals ?

[balordazul]

 

On a side note, we all agree that Helbrecht is effectively always S5, since he is affected by his own aura, and thus strikes at S6 with the Sword of the High Marshals ?

Yep he is S6 all the time making him a solid HQ.

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

Is that real? I was operating under the impression that characters weren't buffed by their own bubbles. Am I wrong?

[Acebaur]

Yep GW released their designer's notes,basically a FAQ that specifically says that they benefit from their own auras

[bolvar]

I'm thinking of running our High Marshal with an assault terminator squad in either :

- a storm raven : 5 man TH/SS squad with added dreadnought for a huge impact turn two and a vehicle that is very hard to neutralise (but a horrendous point sink)

- a LRC : 7 man (4 TH/SS, 3 LC)

 

9 or 11 S9 AP -3 D3 hammer hits will make short work of just about anything since hits will be 3+ reroll and wounds 3+.  LCs will be 9 S5 AP-2 D1 hits that reroll to hit and to wound.

 

Do you see objections to either ?

 

On a side note, we all agree that Helbrecht is effectively always S5, since he is affected by his own aura, and thus strikes at S6 with the Sword of the High Marshals ?

 

May i suggest getting Grimaldus instead of Helbretch? since those terminators are melee only, and both of them allow rerolls, Grimaldus might have the upper hand with his 6+ on hit extra attack. The +1S buff from Helbretch would not have any impact on hammernators since they'll be wounding on 2+ against <=T4 and 3+ on =>T5 by themselves

Edited June 29, 2017 by bolvar

[SydonianDragoon404]

I agree that Grimaldus is the way to go with a pure melee unit. Tactical Terminators might benefit more from Helbrecht with their guns and heavy weapons. 

[Medjugorje]

for fungames (like i played yesterday) Helbrecht was awesome with a Crusadersquad + Emp. Champion. Hitting enemy Chaostroops with 3+ with rerolls and wounding on 3s.

[Ciler]

May i suggest getting Grimaldus instead of Helbretch? since those terminators are melee only, and both of them allow rerolls, Grimaldus might have the upper hand with his 6+ on hit extra attack. The +1S buff from Helbretch would not have any impact on hammernators since they'll be wounding on 2+ against <=T4 and 3+ on =>T5 by themselves

 

You have a point.

 

In which conditions would you use Helbrecht then ? I'm sceptical about regular terminators, because they will be shifted off the table much more easily than shield terminators. Maybe in a crusader squad to give S5 to everyone indeed.

[bolvar]

Yes, to give at least S5 for wounding at 3+ against T4 and 4+ against T5, with power swords or lighting claws

 

And to boost shooting units, rerolling every missed hit

[Lysere]

Keep in mind Grimaldus's rule won't trigger if you have a -1 To hit. From the couple of times I've used him so far I felt it works best with large numbers of dice while Helbrechts rule works well regardless of number of attacks. Also strength 9 will help a lot with things like Knights, heavy armor, etc.

[AlmightyWalrus]

Keep in mind Grimaldus's rule won't trigger if you have a -1 To hit. From the couple of times I've used him so far I felt it works best with large numbers of dice while Helbrechts rule works well regardless of number of attacks. Also strength 9 will help a lot with things like Knights, heavy armor, etc.

 That's a very important point: Grimaldus can't give extra attacks to Power Fists and the like.

[Acebaur]

I think Grimaldus is going to be best with a giant blob of Crusaders whole vanguard will benefit most from Helbrecht

[Ciler]

Grimaldus is expensive though. 120 pts where a regular chaplain is ~85 pts (same statline), that's a hefty price for the special ability.

[bolvar]

 

Keep in mind Grimaldus's rule won't trigger if you have a -1 To hit. From the couple of times I've used him so far I felt it works best with large numbers of dice while Helbrechts rule works well regardless of number of attacks. Also strength 9 will help a lot with things like Knights, heavy armor, etc.

 That's a very important point: Grimaldus can't give extra attacks to Power Fists and the like.

 

Ugh, that's true :|

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Grimaldus is expensive though. 120 pts where a regular chaplain is ~85 pts (same statline), that's a hefty price for the special ability.

 

That's relatively cheap for a Chaplain with his stats and the capability to add +1 attack to every roll of 6 for UNITS around him... it's not a model thing... it's UNITS...

not to mention add in the benefit of the Cenobyte Servitors, and you're basically immune to Battleshocks... both have their uses, and their uses are beneficial...

[Firepower]

Cenobytes aren't tied to Grim anymore though.  They can be taken independently.  He buffs them, but if they're getting into combat then something's already gone wrong.

 

Considering their price, the only reason not to take them is because they take up a coveted Elite slot.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Firepower

[SydonianDragoon404]

Honestly I haven't found morale to be a problem in any of my games. Most of my squads don't go beyond 5 models though. 

 

Important note: Grimaldus Buff does work on Relic Blades, Dreadnoughts, Emperor's Champion, Lightning Claws, etc. Really, what vanilla Space Marines need is access to some way to get +1 to hit. Currently, Chaos can do it through psychic powers, as they are the only ones with Prescience now. I am really hoping for a +1 to hit in Close Combat stratagem for Black Templars when the codex drops, or something like that.