=][= Unit(s) of the week: Tank HQ's =][=

[duz_]

It has come to the Commissariat's attention that some of you have not being keeping up with your regular training requirements. As such we intend to rectify this immediately by commencing an intensive re-education of the command corps. Failure will not be tolerated!

 

This will be a weekly series of threads aimed at discussing the units available to the Astra Miliatrum in 8th edition. This can become a resource for those finding their feet in 8th and our brothers in arms who have joined the fight in the glorious Imperial Guard.

 

As some have jumped the gun the initial topic didn't include the Tank Commanders.

This topic will focus on the two main Tank Commanders:

• Tank Commander
  
• Knight Commander Pask
  

We all know tanks got a good boost in this edition! So where does that put our Tank Commanders? The orders themselves have stayed the same, although they are now automatic.

Pask with BS2+ is certainly a great option for some of the less reliable tanks, and with BS3+ the Tank Commander can fill that gap too, albeit not as effectively. 

 

Which of these two do you plan to run? Or perhaps both and have Pask order the Commander and himself to out manoeuvre the Emperor's enemies.

 

I've ran Pask in a Vanquisher and I was somewhat pleased with the outcome. Especially compared to how the Vanquisher went last edition. I benefited more from the BS2+ than his orders though. 

[DarthWaffle]

Despite mathhammers opinions, Pask in the Vanquisher or Punisher make the most sense to me.  BS2+ is just bloody good.

 

I'm thinking at the moment of running.

 

Pask - Vanquisher, Lascannon, 2xHeavy Bolters

Tank Commander - Punisher, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Bolters

Executioner - Lascannon, 2xPlasma

Demolisher - HB

 

With order being much better than before, I suspect a lot of lists are going to run Pask, Tank Commander, 2xLeman Russ variants, and an arty piece. Solid armor.

[Ranwulf]

Can someone explain to me why people like the Vanquisher cannon? A single shot that causes D6 damage seems a bit underwhelming.

 

Ran

[Jacinda]

Think of it as a 72" range melta weapon.  It can see the whole table!

[Lysere]

Can someone explain to me why people like the Vanquisher cannon? A single shot that causes D6 damage seems a bit underwhelming.

 

Ran

Probably because it's basically a better Las cannon since you're less likely to roll poorly for the damage. Of course you have to hit first but still.

[Harrowmaster]

Add a tank commander or pask or take the stygies vanquisher and you're less likely to miss the target.

[duz_]

Also as you pointed out because its a single shot putting in on a Tank Commander or Pask increases its chance of hitting. 

It can do a fair degree of damage when it does hit!

 

It would be nice if one of the Tank orders allowed re-roll's 1 or +1BS.

[Zectz]

I just want to point out that the difference between a standard Tank Commander and Pask is only 10 points (167 vs 177 without weapons).

 

For 10 points you get BS 2+ and the ability to shout 2 orders instead of 1. I think that's pretty worth.... I don't see why you would ever take a single Tank Commander without upgrading to Pask unless you were running like a 100% Catachan keyword army or something.

 

Taking more standard Tank Commanders as well as Pask, that's another story! But if you were just going to take 1 I think it's silly not to upgrade it to Pask for the sake of 10 points, no matter what Leman Russ variant it is.

[Damo1701]

With the upgrade tank commanders got, and the fact there is a detachment that is just HQ choices, plus some unruly rules-exploiting, I face JUST tank commmanders and Pask (Punisher) with my Raven Guard.

 

This state of affairs is daft now, especially as they no longer need or require a peon/buddy in order to be taken.  Add to that the fact Pask may order them about (I believe), and you see Leman Russes becoming slightly overpowered for their points IMO.

 

If some restrictions were returned to tank commanders, then I can see their benefit and the (promised) balance that 8th edition was supposed to bring.  As it stands, however, I can see far too many cases of "too many chiefs and no indians" becoming the norm in matched play.

 

When it comes to narrative play, even that loses out, as they are taken purely because of their higher than average BS3+ which leaves the narrative totally open, with no real justification.  Where are the shields for those commanders of tank companies or squadrons?  Where are the vehicles they are supposed to be ordering around?

[Ranwulf]

Think of it as a 72" range melta weapon.  It can see the whole table!

 

 

Can someone explain to me why people like the Vanquisher cannon? A single shot that causes D6 damage seems a bit underwhelming.

 

Ran

Probably because it's basically a better Las cannon since you're less likely to roll poorly for the damage. Of course you have to hit first but still.

 

But its a single shot...that has the same strenght as the battle cannon, and the same range. Why not keep the Battle cannon? It shoots 3 to 4 shots (more or less), and then it wounds the same, and cause D3 wounds each shot. 

 

Ran

[Withershadow]

Regular Tank Commanders aren't that great, you're paying like 34 points for +1BS. It'd be worth it if they could issue orders to themselves or other Tank Commanders.

[Jacinda]

 

Think of it as a 72" range melta weapon.  It can see the whole table!

 

 

Can someone explain to me why people like the Vanquisher cannon? A single shot that causes D6 damage seems a bit underwhelming.

 

Ran

Probably because it's basically a better Las cannon since you're less likely to roll poorly for the damage. Of course you have to hit first but still.

 

But its a single shot...that has the same strenght as the battle cannon, and the same range. Why not keep the Battle cannon? It shoots 3 to 4 shots (more or less), and then it wounds the same, and cause D3 wounds each shot. 

 

Ran

 

hunh.

I  ran the numbers and even with the Battle Cannon allowing more saves and causing fewer wounds, it is still the better choice being 25% better.  I just looked at T6, T7 and T8 with a 3+ save.  Also compaired usage by a standard LR and by a commander.  The Battle Cannon was always 25% better. 

 

I calculated using an Average damage from 2D6 take the best at 4.472.  The median value would be 5 which would improve the Vanquisher's performance but the Battle Cannon would still be 12% better.

 

My math could be off or maybe a bad copy/paste somewhere so I'll check my spreadsheet again, but it looks like a no brainer.  Better damge at slightly less cost goes to the Battle Cannon.

[Thoridon]

Right now I only have 2 Leman Russ built; a Battle Cannon and Demolisher. I'm planning to add Pask to one, a Commander to the other and add a couple more tanks (waiting to be built) to benefit from the orders.

 

I'm highly tempted to try Pask in the Demoilsher with Multi-Melta sponsons and Lascannon hull (ironically the same sponsons I removed near the end of 7th to be more points efficient). Why? It's the hardest hitting weapon with the strongest anti-monster sponsons. With 2+ BS (3+ for the non-turret on the move) there's a good chance of getting plenty of hits into the tough targets and while an expensive combination it would make the most of the BS. If I did that I'd maybe add 2 more Demolishers to run with him, though being the normal version I'd keep them cheaper with Heavy Bolters as the extra weapons. If it's ruled that he can order himself I'd just run a pair, but I don't think that's intended so waiting to see on that one.

 

I'm then thinking I'll add a 2nd Battle Cannon to run with the one I have as the Commander. With the 3+/4+ I'd still go with the hull lascannon but heavy bolters on the side, probably an identical build for each. These would sit further back to utilise the extra range and be versatile against a range of targets.

 

On the one hand I'm unsure of using Pask in a close-range build as I expect he'd be a focus target. On the other hand if anything will make the most of the Demolisher+MM build it's him. I figure if I leave the turret hatch unglued I can switch Pask and the basic Commander over if he's getting killed too much.

 

I just don't think the other turret options offer as much as those two: Battle Cannon for the range and versatility, Demolisher for the damage. A Punisher has good anti-horde output but IG have plenty of that anyway, Vanquisher is inferior being single shot, Plasma has the overcharge risk without really offering the extra damage potential and the Exterminator is essentially a stronger Autocannon, still inferior.

 

With 2 more tanks to build I'm fairly sure I'll go for an extra Battle Cannon and Demolisher. After that I'll see how it goes with Pask, and if GW answer the issue of his self-orders in an FAQ. It might be that I just add more Battle Cannons after that, as I think the BC/Las/2xHB build will be a good support for infantry, but I want to try running a pair of Demolishers whether it's Pask or a Commander in one.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Thoridon

[Thoridon]

As a brief follow up I used a normal Tank Commander in a Demolisher last game. No sponsons as I hadn't glued them back on yet. The BS 3+ was a huge help in getting those shots to hit, and wounding T8 on a 3+ was great too. One phase I had 2 hits land on a T8 model, both unsaved and managed to roll a 5 and 6 to strip 11 wounds. That's obviously above average, but it already proved more effective than in any of my 7th games.

 

I picked up Pask so will have to try him in there next time.

[KGatch113]

Add a tank commander or pask or take the stygies vanquisher and you're less likely to miss the target.

 

You legally cannot do this.

[DarthWaffle]

As a brief follow up I used a normal Tank Commander in a Demolisher last game. No sponsons as I hadn't glued them back on yet. The BS 3+ was a huge help in getting those shots to hit, and wounding T8 on a 3+ was great too. One phase I had 2 hits land on a T8 model, both unsaved and managed to roll a 5 and 6 to strip 11 wounds. That's obviously above average, but it already proved more effective than in any of my 7th games.

 

I picked up Pask so will have to try him in there next time.

 

I haven't thought about running a Demolisher with a Tank commander. I still think Pask is king in the Punisher right now. Partner him with an Exectutioner with Plasma cannons and he's helping and dishing out his own crazy damage each turn.

[Withershadow]

I've reversed my initial opinion somewhat on the turrets.  I've been trying to do the math on an executioner cannon vs. a demolisher cannon, but it's tricky.

 

D6 S8 -3 D2 with a small (3%) chance to overheat, vs. D3 S10 -3 D6. 

 

Against a T8 target, the demolisher cannon is more likely to wound, and has a significantly larger max damage of 18 vs. 12.  If you look at purely average dice, they are basically identical against T8 targets, and the plasma cannon having the edge against T6-7 targets.  Vs. T5 Gravis/Bikers/Inceptors/Centurions/Plague Marines/etc., the S10 of the demolisher cannon lets you wound on 2+, which again brings the guns to parity.

 

Seems like the guns are actually pretty comparable, with the plasma cannon more consistent and the demolisher cannon more swingy (and thus more likely to do either a lot less or a lot more).  Additional considerations are the practically mandatory tank order for re-rolling 1s for the plasma, the still existing chance to overheat even with the re-roll, and the demolisher cannon being far and away superior against units of 10+ models (since it goes up to D6 shots).

 

Sponson plasma cannons vs. multi-meltas are even more annoying to compare, since you have to consider the fact that if you move overcharging is pretty much out of the question.

 

I think the best variants may well turn out the extreme ones, the demolisher/lascannon/multi-meltas all the rend -3/-4 and D6 damage load-out, or the punisher + 3 hbs + stormbolter all the dakka load-out.  Volume or quality, whereas the Executioner seems to be a middle-of-the-road reliable workhorse that occasionally burns itself out.

[Harrowmaster]

 

 

Add a tank commander or pask or take the stygies vanquisher and you're less likely to miss the target.

You legally cannot do this.

What do you mean? I was talking about making a vanquisher more reliable

[Tyr13]

 

Add a tank commander or pask or take the stygies vanquisher and you're less likely to miss the target.

 

You legally cannot do this.

 

Theres an "or" in there. Its not "take Pask in a Stygies Vanquisher" its "take Pask OR a Stygies Vanquisher".

[Feral_80]

Pask is very good, but it tends not to last long despite the LR being relatively tough. I quite like to try him with a battlecannon, if you roll decently you have a solid gun thanks to his BS 2+. Alternatively, A punisher is still a thing. I believe he is always worth getting lascannon + 2 mmelta as side weapons, and even a storm bolter on the top.

 

Vanquisher sucks, badly. The problem is not hitting, but wounding. He will wound most targets on 3+ or, even worse 4+ for those tough targets that you *really* need to destroy quick. He won't cause that much of a damage anyway. The way to improve the Vanquisher cannon a little could be to give it at least S 9, or making it Heavy 2, or being able to reroll to wound, or something like that. For being our allegedly scariest gun that we can field on a non-superhavy hull, it is certainly unimpressive and very distant from what it is supposed to do fluff-wise.

 

Tank commanders are usable if taken in an all-tank army, just for fun. But at the moment they seem worthless compared to Pask, and even at BS 4+ some of the FW LR variants seem better. 

 

Overall, LR are certainly *NOT* overpriced at all. Actually, they look like among the very few IG units that are not cheaper than you would expect 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Feral_80

[KGatch113]

 

 

Add a tank commander or pask or take the stygies vanquisher and you're less likely to miss the target.

You legally cannot do this.

What do you mean? I was talking about making a vanquisher more reliable

 

I did not see the second or in there, my bad.