Chaos Lords with Havocs

[Custodian Athiair]

Thinking about how useful havocs are now, with the safe plasma shooting among other things. It seems reasonable to run them with a Chaos Lord for those rerolls of 1.

 

However sticking Havocs in a Rhino, and wanting the Lord to be with them. What's the best way to keep them within 6" of each other.

 

Do you run 5 man Havocs with the Lord riding shotgun in the Rhino with them? Or run 10 man Havocs and put the Lord on a bike?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Castigator]

I'd put him in the Rhino with the Havocs, if only because it's cheaper and he's less likely to become the closest target while the Havocs get where they need to be.

[Commissar K.]

Thinking about how useful havocs are now, with the safe plasma shooting among other things. It seems reasonable to run them with a Chaos Lord for those rerolls of 1.

 

However sticking Havocs in a Rhino, and wanting the Lord to be with them. What's the best way to keep them within 6" of each other.

 

Do you run 5 man Havocs with the Lord riding shotgun in the Rhino with them? Or run 10 man Havocs and put the Lord on a bike?

 

Thanks in advance.

Consider Deep Strike characters aswell. They show up at the end of the Movement phase wherever you need them.

[Custodian Athiair]

Can't seem to quote while on my phone. But the deep strike idea is pretty solid actually.

 

I'm probably going to end up with a Terminator lord anyway. So that's a good way to do things! Thanks guys!

[Guiltysparc]

Not quite what you're after, but i've had amazing success running Terminators with a Terminator Lord, everything having combi-plasmas.  Thatls a serious volley of firepower (they come down in rapid fire range), with decent sticking-around power to boot, that you can put down wherever you need it.

[Plaguecaster]

So you can re roll any fails when you supercharge a units plasma weapons? That's pretty cool :D

[Commissar K.]

So you can re roll any fails when you supercharge a units plasma weapons? That's pretty cool :D

Exact. Also pretty great when you have a real Plasma plan. Its quite great all in all and we have a lot of acces to this simple but relevant buff.

[Castigator]

So you can re roll any fails when you supercharge a units plasma weapons? That's pretty cool

Unless they are shooting at Daemonettes under the protection of the Masque or Supersonic flyers.....then they're going to feel it when their rolls of a two drop down to a one 

[TrexPushups]

Prescience is very handy for plasma users who don't like it when their troopers explode.

[Dallas Drake]

If you can get within 12" of something then overcharging plasma then a Lord within 6" is pretty nasty, but IMO you need to be double tapping. Good players won't let you get within 12" though unless you blow some of their chaff away or they make a mistake, so keep that in mind when you place them from DS.

 

A Lord with Havocs is alright. Run him bolt pistol & chainsword (combi weapon if feeling fancy) and re-roll those 1s. You want to be stationary really for most of the game and go multiple 5 man squads to get the most synnergy from him. Personally I'd run him with Plasma Chosen or Terminators though as the re-roll hits work in melee too, make them Slaanesh and give loyalists a good kicking!

Edited June 27, 2017 by Dallas Drake

[Custodian Athiair]

I should explain I'm planning on running an Iron Warriors list, so would want to avoid god dedication where possible.

 

But I hadn't got as far as thinking of icons (fluffed as augments or whatever).

 

But thanks for the tip on Termies and Chosen. It's definitely a power play, but not convinced it fits into the army concept I've got in my head. I won't be very competitive, but I'll have fun.

 

But may look into the teleporting Terminators idea. Whether I can find 21 power levels in the build is interesting.

 

Once again thanks guys! You're the best

[Commissar K.]

For Iron Warriors also do not shy yourself from using Obliterators instead of Chaos Terminators with load out X or Y. The Obliterators are a litle bit cheaper as Vanilla Terminators but I feel they are easily as good if not better. Deepstriking is worth it and the advantage out of them not having Rapid Fire or Melta's is offcourse that there is no specific reason to not have them Deepstrike 20-24" away from their intended target. All the while that place might just contain an objective aswell (see where this is going).

 

Typically though, and this is the most general advice I would give to anyone at this point, don't try to enforce any particular Legion upon yourself. Use the advantage to for example change Khorne Berzerkers Legion Keyword to World Eaters to have them as troops.

Chaos works in a bit strange ways 8th ed but we have 12 Troop choices technically available to us. So the moment you'll think, we'll I'd like one melee unit too, don't forget that converted Berzerkers and/or Poxwalkers are very legit choices and this leaves room to spend those more limited Elite choices for something else.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

 

So you can re roll any fails when you supercharge a units plasma weapons? That's pretty cool

Unless they are shooting at Daemonettes under the protection of the Masque or Supersonic flyers.....then they're going to feel it when their rolls of a two drop down to a one 

 

 

The Masque buff work only in fight phase no ?

[Brother Aiwass]

For Iron Warriors also do not shy yourself from using Obliterators instead of Chaos Terminators with load out X or Y. The Obliterators are a litle bit cheaper as Vanilla Terminators but I feel they are easily as good if not better. Deepstriking is worth it and the advantage out of them not having Rapid Fire or Melta's is offcourse that there is no specific reason to not have them Deepstrike 20-24" away from their intended target. All the while that place might just contain an objective aswell (see where this is going).

 

Typically though, and this is the most general advice I would give to anyone at this point, don't try to enforce any particular Legion upon yourself. Use the advantage to for example change Khorne Berzerkers Legion Keyword to World Eaters to have them as troops.

 

Chaos works in a bit strange ways 8th ed but we have 12 Troop choices technically available to us. So the moment you'll think, we'll I'd like one melee unit too, don't forget that converted Berzerkers and/or Poxwalkers are very legit choices and this leaves room to spend those more limited Elite choices for something else.

I don't understand the fixation for Oblits and Iron Warrior. Don't get me wrong, but the "I play as IW" is usually followed by "why not oblits"...

 

1- Oblits are cheaper that Termies, yes, but their performance compared to them is bad, bad as in worse than termies in damage output, even more that they don't have powerfists anymore and MoN doesn't buff their T.

 

2- The classic Iron Warriors way of war is the Meatgrinder; artillery backfield and waves of marines marching forward to kill and die :P

 

As for IW not having marks, they used to have berzerkers to launch the assault on the trenches and cannon fodder to distract the enemy, so MoK and cultists are fluffy aswell.

[Commissar K.]

 

For Iron Warriors also do not shy yourself from using Obliterators instead of Chaos Terminators with load out X or Y. The Obliterators are a litle bit cheaper as Vanilla Terminators but I feel they are easily as good if not better. Deepstriking is worth it and the advantage out of them not having Rapid Fire or Melta's is offcourse that there is no specific reason to not have them Deepstrike 20-24" away from their intended target. All the while that place might just contain an objective aswell (see where this is going).

 

Typically though, and this is the most general advice I would give to anyone at this point, don't try to enforce any particular Legion upon yourself. Use the advantage to for example change Khorne Berzerkers Legion Keyword to World Eaters to have them as troops.

 

Chaos works in a bit strange ways 8th ed but we have 12 Troop choices technically available to us. So the moment you'll think, we'll I'd like one melee unit too, don't forget that converted Berzerkers and/or Poxwalkers are very legit choices and this leaves room to spend those more limited Elite choices for something else.

I don't understand the fixation for Oblits and Iron Warrior. Don't get me wrong, but the "I play as IW" is usually followed by "why not oblits"...

 

1- Oblits are cheaper that Termies, yes, but their performance compared to them is bad, bad as in worse than termies in damage output, even more that they don't have powerfists anymore and MoN doesn't buff their T.

 

2- The classic Iron Warriors way of war is the Meatgrinder; artillery backfield and waves of marines marching forward to kill and die

 

As for IW not having marks, they used to have berzerkers to launch the assault on the trenches and cannon fodder to distract the enemy, so MoK and cultists are fluffy aswell.

 

Well the fixation for me comes from the narrative revolving around Obliterators and Iron Warriors. In regards to your points:

- Worse damage output is not so much the case, with Assault there is nothing preventing them from moving backwards and shoot from the point they dropped and continue on shooting. Not having a Power Fist only means you do not want to melee engage with these models. You can prevent this if you want to.

- What isn't classic is the approach and how to with 8th. Claiming objectives is more relevant than ever. The tool to do this can come from Obliterators. They arn't multi-mixed in their tactical approach, don't pay points for that and do not mind just chilling near objectives placed on a odd side of the board.

 

But for Chaos in general, mix to your liking. I think that Chaos players are doing themselves a disservice if they do not mix up all these available units.

 

You don't see IG just man-planting with one type of unit, so why on earth is everybody so set on playing one Legion exclusively? Narrative doesn't matter for the current state of the game, anyone should use this to their advantage.

 

If you want to have a great ranged heavy support module most certainly do not exclude Khârn, he does it better as any other 1's re-roll alternative...

[Brother Aiwass]

You should paint your armor black.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

He's right, as long as we don't have legion rules we dont get any bonus for getting only one legion per army or per detachment.

 

So if, like me, you want a fluffy army : go one with one legion (more or less some daemon depending of your legion).

If you want effectivness on the table top : take the best of whatever you can.

[Commissar K.]

You should paint your armor black.

It's simpler as that (ergo you do not have to do that).

 

- If your opponent is up for a narrative game, by all means follow narrative and enforce handicaps the narrative tell you your Legion has.

- If your opponent is up for a matched game, by all means follow matched and combine the strenghts Chaos as a complete faction has.

 

We can't out-combat Orks and Nids, we cannot out-shoot a lot of Imperium. What we can do is out-shoot Orks and Nids and out-combat a lot of Imperium (A LOT). Use this fact to your advantage for matched play because rest assured your opponent will aswell.

 

I love World Eaters, I love Khorne Berzerkers. This doesn't mean I actually play Ork Khorne Berzerkers and all my army MUST contain is Khorne Berzerkers. In a matched play your opponent will create a force to his advantage, narrative design hardly is cared for.

I see Space Marine armies with 6+ Dreadnoughts, while narrative tells us they are extremely super rare vechicles. I see Ork armies with 120+ Ork boyz and Weird ones who the narrative tells us explode when too many greenskins are there. So now we handicap ourselfs exactly for what?

 

Cheers,

[Brother Aiwass]

It's like 5th edition over again!

 

As Athiair stated he plays IW, i bitted. If you ask for Night Lords, or World Eaters advice, you should get it, not Black Legion powergaming (which is fine is that is what you like).

[the jeske]

For a single squad it seems like a not enough of an multiplier to run a lord. But for 2-3 squads it could possibly work. The rhino version would be better in such a situation.

 

 

What we can do is out-shoot Orks and Nids

 

At how many points, because a standard 2k pts list of nids does out shot csm, by virtue of tyranid weapon platforms not needing to move and an additional -1to hit. While still forcing chaos players to direct fire to those ~40 genestealers first and not the support section.

 

 

I see Ork armies with 120+ Ork boyz and Weird ones who the narrative tells us explode when too many greenskins are there

 

The fluff[at least the old one] that they get grounded easily and only in case of full waagghs do they require towers to do so, before mind boyz and a brass rod is enough.

Edited June 28, 2017 by the jeske

[Commissar K.]

It's like 5th edition over again!

 

As Athiair stated he plays IW, i bitted. If you ask for Night Lords, or World Eaters advice, you should get it, not Black Legion powergaming (which is fine is that is what you like).

Your responce is now in narrative but before you judged Obliterators on a matched play level? 

 

As Athiair stated he plays IW, i bitted. If you want to know why I suggested Obliterators it's because narrative tells us that they can be found in huge numbers amongst the Iron Warriors because the Iron Warriors actively infect their members with the technovirus as per White Dwarf 256.

 

One can even attempt to create a Obliterator character like Merihem from The Siege of Castellax novel because the Index allows us to have a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour with Plasma Pistol and Combi Plasma Bolter.

 

Whatever the intend is, there is no reason to limit your own story or army. 

 

 

[Commissar K.]

 

 

What we can do is out-shoot Orks and Nids

 

At how many points, because a standard 2k pts list of nids does out shot csm, by virtue of tyranid weapon platforms not needing to move and an additional -1to hit. While still forcing chaos players to direct fire to those ~40 genestealers first and not the support section.

2K, again with a combined arms approach. 

 

To me it seems you might want to check out Prescience from the Psychic Power lists. It directly negates the movement penalty. Granted with 40 Genestelers I doubt you'll have to move at all. 

[the jeske]

That is a buff for 1 squad. So your still have 1 squad/vehicle rolling to hit at -1BS and the rest of the army rolling at -2BS on turn one. Unless they do not move. But them am taking the objectives, and have more fire power then a chaos list and the chaos player sitll has to deal with my stealers and mawlocks. Or is there some sort of choir/buff army for chaos, if yes I would love to see it.

[Commissar K.]

That is a buff for 1 squad. So your still have 1 squad/vehicle rolling to hit at -1BS and the rest of the army rolling at -2BS on turn one. Unless they do not move. But them am taking the objectives, and have more fire power then a chaos list and the chaos player sitll has to deal with my stealers and mawlocks. Or is there some sort of choir/buff army for chaos, if yes I would love to see it.

Khârn can reroll to hits for two units, one with bs/ws buff in addition can be sufficient.

 

As for objectives, enough small module options to attempt it. Pick you Daemonic or Deep Striking poison really.

 

Point blank 5 raptors with 3 flamers are sufficiently cheap enough for 40 Genestealers to focus upon while Berzerkers advance. Or Khârn for that matter.

 

Though the typical most effective way to hinder huge mobs is Rhinos. You can also peek a boo with Warptime. Now we see each other, now we dont.

[Brother Aiwass]

 

It's like 5th edition over again!

 

As Athiair stated he plays IW, i bitted. If you ask for Night Lords, or World Eaters advice, you should get it, not Black Legion powergaming (which is fine is that is what you like).

Your responce is now in narrative but before you judged Obliterators on a matched play level? 

 

As Athiair stated he plays IW, i bitted. If you want to know why I suggested Obliterators it's because narrative tells us that they can be found in huge numbers amongst the Iron Warriors because the Iron Warriors actively infect their members with the technovirus as per White Dwarf 256.

 

One can even attempt to create a Obliterator character like Merihem from The Siege of Castellax novel because the Index allows us to have a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour with Plasma Pistol and Combi Plasma Bolter.

 

Whatever the intend is, there is no reason to limit your own story or army. 

 

 

 

No dude. You assumed too much. Aithiar wanted advice, he said he plays IW and don't like marks. The background of IW tell us that the meatgrinder is standard modus operandi, even if they have oblits they're not the dominant unit type, but the rank and file bitter marine. I'm not limiting any story btw.

 

Background and fluff are awesome, and most people love it (which is the point of this game anyway, because w/o fluff wouldn't be game to play) and try to recreate armies sticking to the theme and they also like to win from time to time. You can have a pretty fluffy IW army with earthshaker batteries, quad guns, mutant rabble, basilisks and chaos Havocs supported by some CSM/zerkers launching the assault (shame that they don't have access to siege Tyrants tho).

 

And the matched play=WAAC/Narrative=fluffy is your assumption, because not everyone plays like this (indeed in tournaments, but for your everyday game it depends on the local meta), people may not like the Power Level and stick to matched play for they like or are used to the points system. It is fine that you like Black Legion playstyle to mix and max most efficient units, but some players like to play other legions (and while this may be a bit difficult since the codex isn't out, it is not impossible) like IW, AL, WB and so on. We have plenty of choices to build an army that matches our chosen legion/warband with both GW & FW indexes (plus the AM one!).

 

Now, the idea of an Oblit character is pretty cool and converting a TDA lord to resemble an Oblit with a few Oblit squad as a bodyguard would be awesome, but the idea of oblits en masse,  for every IW warband out there, just no, imho.