Chaos Lords with Havocs

[the jeske]

And am the one who isn't doing testing... Do you know how many models on avarge a unit of 5 raptors with 3 flamers kill in a single unit of gene stealers?

 

And am kind of a not getting the Khârn staying with the support section of an army to get its re-rolls. But lets assume that does happen, the tyranid army still has better shoting then what chaos has, and your re-rolls help less then, because of how mods work in 8th. If you roll a 3, which is technicly a hit your still missing with your shoty dudes, and you can't re-roll them with Khârn.

[Commissar K.]

And am the one who isn't doing testing... Do you know how many models on avarge a unit of 5 raptors with 3 flamers kill in a single unit of gene stealers?

 

And am kind of a not getting the Khârn staying with the support section of an army to get its re-rolls. But lets assume that does happen, the tyranid army still has better shoting then what chaos has, and your re-rolls help less then, because of how mods work in 8th. If you roll a 3, which is technicly a hit your still missing with your shoty dudes, and you can't re-roll them with Khârn.

I'd suggest testing it. The objective of 5 Raptors never will be to elimiate 40 Genestealers. It's to ensure the 40 Genestealers will only have 1 viable target, which can divert this massive Mob away from your main forces and ideally objectives. If the Nid player in question wants to sit down with it's 40 Genestealers on this objective... well then you can ensure they have nothing juicy to target with their melee attacks.

 

In terms of the Khârn support, I'm kind of sad that you don't get it. But I have some examples for you as to why it's better as the alternative.

1. Khârn can preform a Heroic Intervention when within 3" of enemy models and can fight twice. If the enemy models have not declared Khârn as a charge target they can however not attack him when charging. The subsequent effect of this is that Khârn can be within 1" of your units while initially he is oustide of 1" of enemy models.

2. Khârn Re-rolls, even when 3's would miss, due to moving, you are still re-rolling 1's and 2's, regardless. This still is a better proposition of just re-rolling 1's. In addition, when the unit Overwatches, and Overwatch they might you can re-roll 1,2,3,4 and 5, as oppossed to 1's with your regular lord.

3. Most importantly, Khârn is relatively cheap and has a 40mm base, which effectively changes his effect radius to 90mm (25,4mm + 25,4mm + 40mm) which is short hand for 3,5". A nice AoE for two units, to three to benifit from, centered around him.

 

However what I see here is that you insist on moving with Heavy weapons into Genestealers, care to explain why?

Do we have to assume the Chaos player in question is not capable of reading the field and placing Objectives in the right locations?

Is the Chaos player enforcing an Legion army handicap upon himself for no additional competitive reason?  

Edited June 28, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Brother Aiwass]

If the nid player sits his stealers he is not playing them very well. Stealers role is to eat your face. If you kill 4 of them, they don'care andcan move around the raptors, advance and charge to eat your face. They are incredibily fast. If you charge them with the raptors, they will all die in your turn, then the stealers will advance and charge to eat your face :P

[Commissar K.]

If the nid player sits his stealers he is not playing them very well. Stealers role is to eat your face. If you kill 4 of them, they don'care andcan move around the raptors, advance and charge to eat your face. They are incredibily fast. If you charge them with the raptors, they will all die in your turn, then the stealers will advance and charge to eat your face

Each turn the 40 Genestealers eat on something close 100 points is a turn you do not have to fear their effect on your own army.

 

Chaos United (8th edition) follows the same simple 5 rules for victory.

 

 

 

1. He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious.

2. He who understands how to fight in accordance with the strength of antagonistic forces will be victorious.

3. He whose ranks are united in purpose will be victorious.

4. He who is well prepared and lies in wait for an enemy who is not well prepared will be victorious. 

5. He whose generals are able and not interfered with by the sovereign will be victorious.

1. Melee fights with Chaos are good versus Imperium, less so versus certain Xenos, such as Orks and Tyranids. Apply Imperium strategies against these type of 100% melee forces.

2. Comined arms enforce combined tactics. As before, Chaos is combined arms throughout.

3. Fear not the blend of Legions for Chaos is one.

4. Why on earth do you want to move into Tyranid forces with Heavy weapon units  Khârn will move in when the time is right.

5. Just because Khârn is good in melee does not mean you forgo his Kill! Maim! Burn! ability, as it's the most potent of his abilities for your army and not a sole Fight. 

 

If our army is to defeat the Imperium and Xenos, unite Legions. Unite in purpose. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Brother Aiwass]

If your raptor unit is killed in your turn, you lost them for nothing, as he'll be free to move right away. Besides, you starting to sound like a Black Legion inducted Word Bearer xD

[Commissar K.]

If your raptor unit is killed in your turn, you lost them for nothing, as he'll be free to move right away. Besides, you starting to sound like a Black Legion inducted Word Bearer xD

Why would that happen though? Are we not using psykers to Warptime and point blank fire & screen that blob? 

From a narrative perspective I'm likely sounding like whatever But the thing is and I say it over and over all narrative is lost currently.

 

Thing is though it happens so often with GW that Im not even upset. I started out with 40K in 5th and loved World Eaters, then 6th came and all narrative was lost on Daemons. Somehow they where all unmarked and later marked again and now we all dance hand in hand under one Legion, named Index Chaos. 

 

I'd worry about Legion specific armies when we see a Legion specific Index/Codex. Thing is nobody has them. You are whatever you like  

Except Thousand Sons and Death Guard, they have some sort of odd member exclusive thing going on that I really don't get either  

 

We live in a game where Khârn supports Havocs, Skarband is a fun guy to hang around with, a Chaos Lord on Disc of Tzeentch isn't allowed at the Thousand Sons and Be'lakor is the ultimate Daemon Prince. I don't know why GW has chosen the path but it's the path with the most flexability. 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Sception]

If you're looking for a backfield buffing hq in a shooty list, consider Abaddon.  12" immunity to morale for all heretic astartes units to keep your cultist screens in place, 6" re-roll of all misses, not just ones, for black legion to make your predators, rapiers, and whatever other gun platforms you're running deadly accurate.  And once combat is joined, he's a hell of a counter-charge element, way more threatening than any chaos lord.

 

It feels a bit blasphemous to bunker him in the backfield instead of deep striking him with a terminator retinue, but in all honesty his abilities are probably better served with the main body of your force.

[Lord Abaia]

But the thing is and I say it over and over all narrative is lost currently.

 

*snip*

 

I'd worry about Legion specific armies when we see a Legion specific Index/Codex. Thing is nobody has them. You are whatever you like

Except Thousand Sons and Death Guard, they have some sort of odd member exclusive thing going on that I really don't get either

 

And if you already have a stockpile of Chaos marine and daemon models to choose from that's great. But if you are just starting out or have a limited collection and have a specific Legion you want to play I would not advise going out and purchasing models all over the place just because in the summer of 2017 there was no benefit to playing anything other than the most inclusive faction keyword armies.

 

This period will not last forever, and if OP wants an Undivided IW legion list, he'd be kicking himself when Legion rules come out and he can't use them with all the models he bought and painted during the era of the index.

[Commissar K.]

 

And if you already have a stockpile of Chaos marine and daemon models to choose from that's great. But if you are just starting out or have a limited collection and have a specific Legion you want to play I would not advise going out and purchasing models all over the place just because in the summer of 2017 there was no benefit to playing anything other than the most inclusive faction keyword armies.

 

This period will not last forever, and if OP wants an Undivided IW legion list, he'd be kicking himself when Legion rules come out and he can't use them with all the models he bought and painted during the era of the index.

 

With the way Detachments work now, how AoS works and how GW does not like to cut off any purchases for anyone I deem it extremely unlikely we will actually see ANY rule related to Legion or Chapter that forbids you from using any other Legion or Chapter that shares one or more Faction Keywords.

 

The way the game is set up here and in AoS allows you to blend and mix whatever. In certain cases you might recieve an advantage to playing mono Legion, while in others you do not.

 

If the Iron Warrior player wants to wait for Codex/Index Iron Warriors, it's up to him enterily. I would say don't hold your breath for that however. Even then they will not have Faction Keyword Chaos removed. As before, we play Chaos and currently there is no advantage choosing another Faction Keyword as Chaos. 

 

So unless there is some knowledge you have about GW's release dates I wouldn't wait for anything in particular. 

 

Cheers,

Edited June 28, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Scammel]

In certain cases you might recieve an advantage to playing mono Legion, while in others you do not.

This is already the case, with character buffs. You can mix and match to get Rubric troops, but Rubric troops are never going to benefit from a Lord's buff. We know this will be the case repeatedly going forward with 99% certainty.

 

But the thing is and I say it over and over all narrative is lost currently.

You keep saying it and it's still nonsense. No, the benefits and restrictions for mono-legion builds are not particularly comprehensive at the moment (there's still more than there was in 4th-6th, mind), but to equate this with a lack of 'narrative' in its entirety is daft. The very act of simply using a special character is a nod to the game's narrative. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Scammel

[Commissar K.]

 

You keep saying it and it's still nonsense. No, the benefits and restrictions for mono-legion builds are not particularly comprehensive at the moment (there's still more than there was in 4th-6th, mind), but to equate this with a lack of 'narrative' in its entirety is daft. The very act of simply using a special character is a nod to the game's narrative. 

 

The Chaos Index has 14 pages of narrative, this isn't a daft vision, it's an objective statement that we have little to no reason to not combine things because there is not a since sentence in the Index that states this shouldn't be done.

 

Again it's up to anyone to follow any sole Legion plan, however if that narrative design isn't followed by your opponent there will be a drastical tactical inflexability.

As before, if your up versus 6 Dreads, 120 Boyz and Weirdboyz or other designs don't feel like following a path of narrative that currently does not grand any advantage. 

 

Waiting for Iron Warriors to recieve their own Codex is possible. Keep in mind that even within Imperium (2 books) certain first founding legions like Iron Hands arn't even covered. 

We know Death Guard is comming up. Other than that I expect a ton of Imperium.

[Scammel]

The Chaos Index has 14 pages of narrative, this isn't a daft vision, it's an objective statement that we have little to no reason to not combine things because there is not a since sentence in the Index that states this shouldn't be done.

Instead we have decades of literature demonstrating how cool paint schemes and particular units dispositions can result in a fun, thematic force. ​Sometimes​ there's been rules attached. There's always been an unrestrictive main list that allows extensive mix-and-matching, and there's always been people who reject that approach through sheer dint of the fact that they want to. You seem to assume that folks have somehow been forced ​into playing focused legion armies; the reality is that they keep the Raptors from their Iron Warriors lists and the Havocs from their Night Lords because they want to.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Scammel

[Commissar K.]

 

 

The Chaos Index has 14 pages of narrative, this isn't a daft vision, it's an objective statement that we have little to no reason to not combine things because there is not a since sentence in the Index that states this shouldn't be done.

Instead we have decades of literature demonstrating how cool paint schemes and particular units dispositions can result in a fun, thematic force. ​Sometimes​ there's been rules attached. There's always been an unrestrictive main list that allows extensive mix-and-matching, and there's always been people who reject that approach through sheer dint of the fact that they want to. You seem to assume that folks have somehow been forced ​into playing focused legion armies; the reality is that they keep the Raptors from their Iron Warriors lists and the Havocs from their Night Lords because they want to.

 

You mean loyalist Night Lords?

 

 

I don't know which Night Lords you mean now with all these narrative content about them ;) 

[Sception]

It's not that you'd be prevented from mixing subfactions in the future, but it's entirely possible that when codeces start rolling out you'll be losing more value by doing so than you gain.  Really too soon to say on that front, which is why the more conservatively minded (in disposition, I'm not talking politics here) are leaning towards caution.

 

Of course, i don't think many of us limit ourselves to exactly one army.  If you take a mixed CSM/Daemons/Heretics army under the index, and it later turns out those things work better as separate CSM, Daemons, & Heretics armies that you only run together for big one off apocalypse games, then you just keep slowly adding units until you have three different armies instead of one.

[Scammel]

I don't know which Night Lords you mean now with all these narrative content about them

I have genuinely no idea what you're trying to imply.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Scammel

[Brother Aiwass]

This thread is being derailed at Whaaagh speed.

[Sception]

I started a separate thread for reiver salt after seeing their official description.

[Castigator]

 

 

So you can re roll any fails when you supercharge a units plasma weapons? That's pretty cool

Unless they are shooting at Daemonettes under the protection of the Masque or Supersonic flyers.....then they're going to feel it when their rolls of a two drop down to a one 

 

 

The Masque buff work only in fight phase no ?

 

 

Correct brother. I was getting ahead of myself and thinking of plasma pistols in combat, apologies for any confusion.

Thinking about it, you wouldn't overcharge plasma against Daemonettes anyway. 

[Lord Abaia]

Again it's up to anyone to follow any sole Legion plan, however if that narrative design isn't followed by your opponent there will be a drastical tactical inflexability.

As before, if your up versus 6 Dreads, 120 Boyz and Weirdboyz or other designs don't feel like following a path of narrative that currently does not grand any advantage.

 

Waiting for Iron Warriors to recieve their own Codex is possible. Keep in mind that even within Imperium (2 books) certain first founding legions like Iron Hands arn't even covered.

We know Death Guard is comming up. Other than that I expect a ton of Imperium.

Oh I don't think anyone expects an Iron Warriors codex. I think they will have an entry in the upcoming CSM codex similar in scope to what was in Traitor Legions. I don't even think Iron Warriors will be as limited as Thousand Sons and Death Guard already are.

 

But I do think if your goal is an IW army you would be better off only getting units with the Heretic Astartes and open <Legion> faction keywords. We know that there will be an advantage to playing mono-legion lists relatively soon, and if you go out and buy Khârn, some Scarab Occult Termies, and a bunch of nurglings because a Chaos list is as good as a Heretic Astartes list is as good as an Iron Warriors list right now, you might be disappointed later.