Horus's plan for neutralizing each loyal Legion

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

 

 

 

I still don't understand the current period of hesitation; fine, stop off at Molech to power up, but after that, where's the speartip plunge to Terra that Lupercal is known for?

 

We've been shown many times that there are no front lines; not only that but there are no supply lines to secure, less so with the Ruinstorm offering one side uncontested passage.

 

I know why we havent finished the series yet, but I don't understand Black Library's excuse, for the main bulk of Horus' forces it should have been:

 

Istvaan III -> Istvaan V ------> Molech ------> Terra.

The Heresy has not been the old 'rapid strike on Terra' that it used to be for many years now. The FW books make it very clear that the speartip strike on Terra was no longer possible after the betrayal at Isstvan III became apparent. The Heresy developed into a vast, grinding war, and supply-lines definitely did matter. There are numerous pieces of information on this across the black books.

Pardon me if I'm being difficult; but we are told repeatedly that there are no front lines, that the whole war is just a mishmash of random blobs of forces moving through, past and sometimes against each other on when they encounter the other in real space (battle of Phall), short of Autek Mor's firebreak across the northen zone.

 

How can your supply lines be threatened when you can just dive right past any blockade?

 

What was Horus scared off, when he had enough legions not only to besiege Terra but also to hold the loyalists at bay a la Alesia?

There are no frontlines in the traditional sense, as this is a galaxy-wide war. But I do not get where you have the impression that supplies do not matter and that there is just chaotoc combat. Supplies or strategical assets comes up in almost every novel as plot device - it's the factor that drives most of the combat actions in the heresy.

 

If he rushes to Terra before triggering the ruinstorm, he has to hope he can end it before another legion comes to aid and he will be losing Angron to the Nails.

 

If he does not break his enemies along thr way, he could manage to take Terra at a high cost and have the Fists and Custodes employ scorched earth tactics on the brink of defeat.

 

Then he would have several fresh legions at his back with no were to go and the recovering imperial machine turning on him. He needs to crush the loyal systems and muster support.

 

In regards to your Berlin analogy, why did the allies bother liberating everything before toppling over the germans?

[Kais Klip]

Because to get from the West to Berlin your men have to physically march there. And your supply line has to physically march there as well. You have to fight the German in front of you, or attempt to walk around him. 

 

With the warp, you have a phase device; you simply walk through every German, until you get to the first Void shield outside Berlin (Sol's Mandeville point), then you start blitzing with a fresh force with full supplies. And every few days your Supply gets on the teleport pad in the USA and poof's next to you outside Berlin. What supply line? 

 

And the German can't just follow you and stab you in the back; his phase device shuts off randomly half the time, leaving him inside a wall, and craps out a daemon the other half. 

 

BUT EVEN WITHOUT THAT:

 

It's been stated multiple times that ranged void battles generally end with one side disengaging with minimal losses. I'm honestly not getting why there is any friction to Horus' war effort. How can anyone grapple with you when you can just poof out at any time? 

 

The whole story is an Eldar Warp Spider fighting his way through a picket line; why is he doing that, when he can just teleport to the Big Bad E? This isn't Tau, who can only make short jumps. Warp jumping is literally unlimited in length, more-so for the traitors, who are literally allied to their method of transportation. 

 

Worst case scenario, the Loyalists arrive - at the Mandaville Point - days away. They're still 4 legions down to your 8. Send 4 to intercept, you still have 4 for 1 Legion and 1/10th of the Emperor's Guard.

 

We keep thinking of this as a flat, land-based war with cluttered fronts. It's not. The Blackshield Black Book clearly paints it as a massive mess of networked, self-sustaining islands that you can teleport at will between. There are no fronts, just concentrations of strength. 50% of the Imperium is allied to Horus; you can click out, click on half the Imperium to resupply, and click back into Terra. 

 

Left click on your concentration of strength, and right click on Terra. Everything else is sophistry and pretty lies. What is Horus clicking on for ten years? 

 

We're not mobilizing peace-time nations here. These are system-killing crusade forces with unlimited mobility, whose supplies don't care if you are in the same system or half the galaxy away; as long as you are covered by Lorgar's Protection Scheme they will be there. 

 

You guys keep referring to these, but there is no loss of strength gradient, there are no interior lines. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by Kais Klip

[Marshal Loss]

 

How can your supply lines be threatened when you can just dive right past any blockade?

 

 

 

Under Horus' orders, the war was to be taken to every corner of the Imperium, and on every battlefront imaginable, from small scale strikes by elite forces, to sponsored terrorist campaigns and civil uprisings, commerce raids by warship squadrons, and targeted strikes to disrupt vital supply chains, smash strategic keystones of Segmentum defence and shred astrotelepathic communications.

 

Don't forget the importance of stable warp routes, and how they factor into the passage of vast armies/fleets. You have to make concessions to the authors here. If warp-travel simply meant that  you could just pop up anywhere you wanted, all wars in this setting would be ridiculous and nonsensical. Historical analogues don't apply well to this setting; nor should they. Horus was not able to do a lightning strike on Terra.

 

Book 4 heavily focuses on the logistics behind the war, as Horus secures the northern Imperium for this very purpose.

[Kais Klip]

Well there we go, stable warp routes finally bring some order to this mess. Book 4 is actually one I didn't get, I considered it filler. Is it worth it? 

 

I don't understand the second quote though; that is implying Horus wants a Long War. 

 

His audiobook says as such; he is raising a storm, so that none may know where or when the final blow will be struck. Except all the loyalists have to do is camp at Terra, so no, we know where the blow will be - Terra - and when: as soon as damned possible. Secure one, two, three routes. But the entire Galaxy? Why the dispersion of strength, if the Throneworld is so important? 

 

Edit: I apologise for derailing the topic by the way, Indefragable if you want me to shut up and "Read Book 4", do say so

 

Edit 2: PDFed Book 4. I withdraw any and all objections. As you were. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by Kais Klip

[Marshal Loss]

Book 4 is basically the book (along with Book 6, to some degree) that fleshes out the scale of the war; in it, Horus and Mortarion essentially conquer the entire Northern Imperium for this purpose (into a 'Dark Imperium'). It's my favourite book in the series (although it does deal heavily with my two favourite Legions, so I'm a little biased), and I'd heartily recommend it. I think people were mostly disappointed because there was no Legion content in there for their games. The story is superb.

 

I don't blame you for having issues with the passage of events: warp-travel is one of the big ???'s of the setting. It's the ultimate plot device, that allows Primarchs and their Legions to pop up wherever the authors deem their presence necessary. Having stable warp-routes helps moderate it. I think FW (in earlier years, anyway) were big into the military history side of things, at least in comparison to BL/GW, and so they were more careful to make the Heresy into an actual war. BL appears to have caught up now. That's just conjecture on my part, anyway.

 

Essentially, Horus decides to divide and conquer. Create maximum Chaos around the galaxy, allowing him to concentrate his strength for an assault on the Solar System, which is incredibly well fortified. They are really building up the Solar Campaign to be a giant, grueling slug-fest just to actually reach Terra, and then you have to assault the throne-world itself. This is validated by some novels (Path of Heaven, for example, where Horus sends Morty and Eidolon to exterminate the White Scars so there is nothing left at the back of his forces harrying his supply lines for when he makes the final push to Terra) even while it is somewhat ignored in others.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I don't think you understand how warp travel works, even in the best of circumstances. None of it is instant, nor is the outcome accurate. It can make a journey that would take years into month, weeks or days: or make you appear somewhere else 9,000 years in the past or future.

 

It is so convulted and chaotic. You could jump into the warp first and arrive at your destination after someone who went in after you.

 

The throneworld is all that matters for the traitors, but not for the Imperium. That is exactly what Horus plays on during the War.

 

10 years is nothing in the scope of a galaxy wide campaign, it's actually very short. Communications are not instant or reliable, and the Imperium's primary device is ineffecfive during that time.

 

To put 10 years in perspective, the Crusade had been going on for what, 250 years?

[bluntblade]

Path of Heaven addresses it, and mentions that the notion of a coherent war front is little more than a metaphor, even now when Horus' advance is the closest to such the Galaxy has ever seen.

[Marshal Loss]

Yeah Path of Heaven is really essential reading here. If Warp Travel was that easy, the book would have been over in the first chapter as the White Scars just jump to Terra. :P

[bluntblade]

It also confirms, in Horus' own words, that the war has become a grinding affair.

[Icarus1138]

Some of the key moments of the Heresy weren't planned by Horus long in advance, but were his reactions to changing circumstances. Prospero is a great example: Horus feared Magnus' ability to interfere with his forces and undoubtedly had a plan to deal with him. What that plan was we'll never know because Magnus went and got himself declared a traitor entirely on his own. The Wolves were sent, and Horus jumped in to modify their orders and get some of his own guys attached to the force to make sure things went well and to kidnap some psykers for use later on. Both of Horus' actions here were reactions to changing events, not long-term plans. I don't think he had a "hoped for" resolution, other than the desire that they fight it out. The only thing that would have ruined it for him was Magnus' surrender. Short of that, as long as the two legions came to blows, his needs were served. If they wiped each other out, so much the better.

 

Istvaan V was a bit like that as well. Istvaan V only happened because the loyalists learned of the events at Istvaan III, which was not Horus' intention at all. Had his plans gone off without a hitch, Istvaan III would have been over in a few hours and they likely would have moved on, either to launch suprise attacks elsewhere or briefly continue the illusion that they were loyal. Instead, Garro warned the Imperium, the retribution fleet was put together, and Horus saw an opportunity for a trap. What his plans were before that, we don't know.

 

It's important to remember that some of his moves (Signus, Calth) were all part of the plan. Others (Istvaan V, Prospero) weren't the original plan, but Plan B. As for his original intentions, we should update the list of loyalists like so:

 

Space Wolves: Unknown. It may be that he got lucky with them being sent to Prospero, or it may be that he set up an elaborate plan to deal with them and was a little annoyed that all his work went to waste.

 

Iron Hands: They were supposed to be on his side. Damn that Fulgrim!

 

Thousand Sons: Unknown. Horus must have been thrilled when he heard that Magnus learned of his betrayal, only to be excommunicated instead of believed.

 

Salamanders: Unknown. Istvaan provided the perfect opportunity to rid himself of them, but Istvaan was itself unforeseen until Angron went and Angroned.

 

Raven Guard: Same as the Salamanders.

 

It's possible that the reason some major Legions seem to not have had plans in place for them (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists) was because Horus planned on hitting Terra right after Istvaan and sacking the throneworld before they even knew a war was on. Hell, if Garro and Ferrus hadn't warned the Imperium he could have shown up, taken command on the planet, then had his 8 legions hit while the defenses were under his own control. It would have been over in days at the most. No reason to have a detailed ambush for the 1st Legion when they first learn of the rebellion from Emperor Horus.

[b1soul]

I really like how FW moved away from "rush to Terra".

 

It allows the HH to expand into a setting and not just a few punctuated battles.

 

I think it does make sense to consolidate first before attempting Terra.

 

You want to hold max advantage when attacking the toughest fortress in the galaxy

[Jackalwolf]

I actually think about it the other way:

 

Why the heck did Horus need to go to Terra? He had more than half the galaxy on his control, warp storms everywhere, the loyalists crippled and divided. He could have kept it up for another 20 years until there was nothing against him out of the Sol System since the Emperor, the Fists and the 10,000 were unable to move.

 

And if everyone rallies to Terra well... The entire Galaxy save one system is yours then, and you can resupply and grow ad infinitum whilst the loyalists are crippled from within (rebellious Mars) and in, say, 100 years, send 1 billion astartes to the Sol system.

 

It was his hubris that lost him the War. He wanted that satisfaction of killing the Emperor and sitting on the Throne of the Throneworld.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Grieux

[bluntblade]

Horus has believed from well before his turning that the Emperor is working to achieve mastery of the Warp, and he's led to believe He's trying to achieve godhood. He has no idea of the Emperor's timeline, but that makes things more urgent. If the Emperor achieves His hypothetical apotheosis, the jig's up. Therefore Terra has to happen.

[Jackalwolf]

My personal view is that was the argument he used to convert his brothers and he may have believed in Davin, but that he knew much better than that after he dabbled more in chaos and specially after Moloch.

[bluntblade]

After Moloch, maybe, but by that stage he's committed. Everything - his fleet movements, the activities of every world he's conquered - is geared towards seizing Terra. Moreover his strategy has ensured that if it takes too long, he has the blades of Sanguinius, Guiliiman, the Lion and the Khan at his back, to say nothing of all the taghmata and mortal armies behind him.

 

The Emperor, indisposed as He is, is still "unmatched" to use Horus' own words. Any chance to exploit His current weakness must be taken.

[TheAlephNull]

I think after Praetorian of Dorn its pretty clear that Horus had a plan to neutralize the XX. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

I think after Praetorian of Dorn its pretty clear that Horus had a plan to neutralize the XX. 

 

I am pretty sure that doing nothing was the best option, as the XX neutralized themselves lol.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Everyone (loyalist and traitor) know it the outcome will be decided at Terra.

 

So all these saliants people are fighting over are supplies curucial to a long siege (weapons, ammo, food- although thats less frequently mentioned) and wall breaching weapons - both sides want them on THEIR side of the wall.

 

And as has been said this is 10 years following a crusade that took the best part of 300.

 

10 years is (on an intergalatic scale) a desparate snatch and grab by both sides. If you think most stories include weeks/months of warp travel to local destinations, realistically you are only going to get a dozen major engagements before the final rush to terra

[Shrieker]

The shenanigans against 'loyalist' legions started before Istvaan

For the RG, Horus threw them in the grinder at Gate 42, it only backfired because Corax put all hi lodge-member terrans (all very close to Horus, having served as de facto recon legion for the Luna Wolves before the crusade founf corax) in the kill zone, thus purging his own legion of 'traitors', albeit unwittingly (Corax didn't like his terrans much, but still resented Horus so much over Gate 42 that they almost came to blows and never spoke again)

Edited July 15, 2017 by Shrieker

[Ascanius]

Dorn had been declared Praetorian of Terra at the time of the VII legion recall, so I think it's fair to expect that he'd hunker down to defend the throneworld.

 

Here's a question, though:

 

Was the VII Legion recalled to Terra to defend and fortify it only because the Emperor's attention had to be fully turned upon the Webway project, or is the fact of it confirmation of sorts that the Emperor planned, or at least expected, the Heresy?

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Here's a question, though:

 

Was the VII Legion recalled to Terra to defend and fortify it only because the Emperor's attention had to be fully turned upon the Webway project, or is the fact of it confirmation of sorts that the Emperor planned, or at least expected, the Heresy?

Surely he would have known that a betrayal by one of the primarchs was at least possible. Kinda similar to the eldar method of predicting the future, can see all the possible outcomes and whatnot. And if he knew it was at least possible he'd have been an idiot to not have at least one legion he knew would remain loyal in all possible outcomes remain on terra. All the better that it was one of two who were good at fortifications and the like!

[Lord Asvaldir]

I completely disagree, the emperor's action at the onset of the heresy implies that he couldn't believe Horus had turned against him and would never have believed such a betrayal possible. The emperor really took his time in reacting to the heresy, plus he put very little oversight over the primarchs throughout the great crusade further showing that he basically trusted them to carry out their orders without betraying him. Instead I think it's likely the emperor recalled the fists to Terra simply because the webway project was a risky venture that had the potential to go wrong so he wanted the extra security, though that's just a guess.

[Calas Typhon]

Hammer of Olympia has an interesting moment in which Perturabo mentions that he would never let the Imperium down or something along those lines if memory serves, once told this, the Emperor knew something would happen as he is filled with sadness although decides not to say anything. Hell, I am pretty sure that is not the first time he has seen something similar happen, its highly likely he might have seen Horus turning in at least one path into the future.

 

I doubt the Fists were brought down because of the Heresy though. The Imperium was to be a stronghold for a united humanity, it makes perfect sense for one of the more stable legions and primarchs built to fortify the core of that imperium. It was more than likely the plan all along to have them do that, crowning Horus as Warmaster would be the perfect time to get the throneworld sorted.

[bluntblade]

While we Can't Take Anything The Emperor Says In MoM At Face Value, the fact that His response to "how didn't you see this coming" is to embark on an elaborate explanation of precognition's limits seems to suggest He was caught unawares. Also the fact that He refused to believe Magnus.

 

It was simply good sense to fortify Terra as His greatest, most vital work got underway, and the Imperial Fists were the most sensible choice for that.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah that seems like a more logical explanation. If the emperor assumed that the heresy was coming heblikeky would have made much bigger preparations than just fortifying the Sol system.