Cultists, Large blob or multiple squads?

[Custodian Athiair]

I'll preface this by I'm currently looking at narrative play so Power Levels are how i'm "building" my army (I'm sure some of you have seen my previous posts from this week), so matched play points I haven't considered in detail. Also the way I'm building is a fluff list of Iron Warriors sending expendable troops at remaining guns, in a wave of squishy human flesh

 

But basically I'm wondering which is a better option:

• Run a couple of large 20-30 man Cultists squads as cannon fodder charge

or

• Run multiple smaller 10 man squads of Cultists

 

I seem to flip back and forth and can't make my mind up. In narrative play it makes no difference to the power levels either way you run it. So that doesn't help me narrow down.

 

Thanks in advance, I'm probably being dumb and missing an obvious fact.

[shandwen]

It depends on a few things:

Terrain. If there is a lot of walls and tall stuff it's possible to completely hide a small squad on an objective and have it camp, if that cover isn't there a larger squad would be needed to not be immediately murdered.

The enemy: a close combat oriented enemy will mail large squads from moral, but a weaker enemy will have problems if a large squad reaches close combat. If your facing tau or guard than larger squads might be necessary, especially if you plan on advancing.

[Panzer]

Well a few things.

 

Large Squads:

+ less units to deploy (more likely to get first turn)

+ easier to get into melee

- more likely to suffer from battleshock

- easier to focus down

 

Small Squads:

+ can cover more ground (preventing reserves to get near, easier to reach objectives)

+ enemy needs to split is shooting, risking overkill by dedicating too much firepower to one unit

+ deployment is more flexible (you can deploy 2 units before beginning to deploy the actually important ones instead of 1, etc.)

+ easier to get into cover or out of line of sight

- give away more killpoints

 

tl;dr unless it's a game with killpoints, or it's a unit that's supposed to get as many models as possible into one combat, I still think MSU works better.

[Commissar K.]

Cultitsts remain meat shields, meat shields need manouvreability. So MSU is the choice I'd go for.

They die extremely fast, though that turn when they do is a turn where your opponent has not shot any Marines. 

As before, use them as a meat shield for your ranged support, Daemonic Engines or characters even.
This way you can present a layered approach akin to that of AM but worse. The fact that it is worse does not mean that CSM is weak however, because AM (as example) is way worse in melee combat and ultimately if we face Imperium that is where we want to end up anyway. Death to the False Emperor and all that. 

Cheers,

[Excessus]

If you have two small squads in melee rather than one large there is a risk of one of them getting wiped out before getting to fight.

[Panzer]

If you have two small squads in melee rather than one large there is a risk of one of them getting wiped out before getting to fight.

I don't think getting to hit is actually of interest for Cultists. :D

[Excessus]

 

If you have two small squads in melee rather than one large there is a risk of one of them getting wiped out before getting to fight.

I don't think getting to hit is actually of interest for Cultists.

 

 

Either way, their blood counts! :)

 

You got an avatar!

[Panzer]

 

 

If you have two small squads in melee rather than one large there is a risk of one of them getting wiped out before getting to fight.

I don't think getting to hit is actually of interest for Cultists.

 

 

Either way, their blood counts!

 

You got an avatar!

 

I do!

And as long as they enjoy getting killed, I don't care what exactly they do. :P

[Sception]

for shields/onion layers, I'd go with big squads, so that you have more freedom to choose where casualties come from*, and can stretch further to get in range of leadership aura characters if you use them (abaddon, huron, apostle, r&h enforcers, etc).

 

* if you have 3 units of 10, one on each flank and one in the front, then the enemy only has to kill 10 models to open a hole they can charge through from any given direction.  With one unit of 30 that covers the same area, the opponent either has to be charging from multiple angles or has to kill a lot more models before they can get that same opening, because you'll take your first casualties from whatever flank they aren't threatening.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

* if you have 3 units of 10, one on each flank and one in the front, then the enemy only has to kill 10 models to open a hole they can charge through from any given direction.  With one unit of 30 that covers the same area, the opponent either has to be charging from multiple angles or has to kill a lot more models before they can get that same opening, because you'll take your first casualties from whatever flank they aren't threatening.

But that's exactly not what the layers are about.

 

Having 2 units of 10 means you have one on front and one behind that. More are hardly required. This way your opponent has to kill 10 models and 10 models and if you really want to another 10 models.

 

With one unit fo 10 that covers the same area you cannot use the Fall back move into your advantage as easily or at all because remember you only need to fall back 1.1".

 

Falling back with MSU poor units in general is much better as trying to force yourself through a Combat Phase. It's what makes AM so incredibly potent this edition. 

 

[Sception]

The same principle works in multiple layers.  Imagine 60 cultists in two layers of 30, again with each layer having 10 models each on the front and each flank.  This is either done with two groups of 30 that cover the whole area, or with 6 groups of 10 that each cover only one side. An opponents fast melee threat comes in at some angle, say the left flank.  for the '6 groups of 10' set up, the opponent only has to cut through 20 cultists in the shooting phase in order to create an opening to charge through, where as, in the '2 groups of 30' set up, the opponent has to kill all 60 cultists before you no longer have any models in their way.

Edited June 29, 2017 by malisteen

[Panzer]

He only has to cut through 20 if you refuse to move your models in your own turn tho. Be flexible and distribute some of your defense layer to the side where you need them instead of just letting them stand where they don't have anything to do except for watching their friends getting killed. :D

[Commissar K.]

The difference remains tactical flexability. 10 are lost means the others dont make morale checks. While 30 easily loss more as they thake casualties and in addition 30 get tarpitted by a random tank. If only 10 are only 10 have to flee and other 50 can shoot.

Especially with flamers many 10 man pockets are much better. The idea is that if opponents want to over commit into cheap chaff they should feel welcome to do so. Now again I wouldn't likely thake too many pockets but they are good meat shields for Havocs, Laspreds and the like.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Sception]

He only has to cut through 20 if you refuse to move your models in your own turn tho. Be flexible and distribute some of your defense layer to the side where you need them instead of just letting them stand where they don't have anything to do except for watching their friends getting killed.

 

with fast/reserved units, you don't necessarily get a turn to re-shuffle your screens between a threat appearing and the opponent cutting through.  A single huge unit that wraps your entire army doesn't need to shuffle, the dudes on one side can already take a bullet for their buddies on the far side.  Every model in the unit is effectively everywhere any other model in the unit is at all times.  That is a major advantage to larger squads if you're onion wrapping a static fire base.

 

Morale is an issue, which is why if you're taking big squads you're looking at huron, or abaddon, or taking them as r&h for enforcers, any one of which basically nullifies the moreal issue completely.

Edited June 29, 2017 by malisteen

[Panzer]

Dunno, I don't see the problem. If there's a unit so fast and hard hitting that you can't manage to re-shuffle your wrap units, then one big unit won't help much either.

[Commissar K.]

For me the core benifit of Cultitists in a MSU is very simple.

- They hit as hard in melee as they do with ranged attacks. 
- The moment they have more melee attacks as possible ranged attacks is if enemies are within 1" of one and another is within 1" of yours. Meaning some in the back rear of a potential 30 are less likely to attack.
- The moment you equip them with Flamers and can Rapid Fire point blank the multitude of attacks you can make becomes much larger as they do 'just in combat' prime reasons being:
A. You can Rapid Fire in the Shooting phase
B. You can Overwatch in the Charge phase
C. You acn Attack in the Fight phase
- What I'm basically saying is that point for point they arn't that amazing in Melee and their ranged offense actually has many additional benifits over their melee potential. By large also because they can work well as a meat screen for more relevant ranged support. Which is where I see their only pro. 

So regardless of what the plan is for 30, you will have some who cannot be part of C. While if you present multiple small units your opponent will either have to decide if he/she will charge them all and eat all the Overwatch. If he selects a fewer ammount of numbers of untis he/she will only be capable of attacking the charged unit(s) regardless of being within 1" of your Cultists models or not. However in many cases the most practicle effect will lead you have these MSU spaced 4.1" away from each other so you can ensure your opponent will just be out of 1" for another possible turn of combat.

Typically though I wouldn't run that many for the simple reason malisteen also mentioned. You need to have immunity to Morale to really validate Cultists in general and while they become okay at that point their output still pales in comparison to that of a mixed army including units like Spawn, Warp Talons and/or Berzerkers. 

One of the reasons as to why I personally will not play multiple units of them indeed also has to do with my personal preforance to not play Huron. If you do though you could attempt something with 30-ish I guess... Though if you really like the idea of cheap Mobs both Orks and Nids still present a more competitive rendition of that, no special characters required.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Sception]

Dunno, I don't see the problem. If there's a unit so fast and hard hitting that you can't manage to re-shuffle your wrap units, then one big unit won't help much either.

 

The difference is whether they got to charge your stuff behind or not.  If they didn't, then you can withdraw any surviving cultists and shoot.  But if your cultist screen died and whatever threat it was - doesn't even have to be anything hard hitting - charges through to your predators / havocs / deredero / rapiers / earthshaker batteries behind, then those things aren't shooting next turn, and maybe not ever again.

 

Since we play chaos, imagine the attack player is also chaos.  to strip screens, they've got two squads of quad heavy bolter rapiers.  As a reserved assualt option, they've got a jump sorcerer with warptime and 10 khorne raptors with an icon, dual meltagun and a combi melta champ.

 

You've got a pair of auto/dakka/havoc predators, a lord to help their accuracy, and 60 cultists to wrap with.

 

Opponent goes first.

 

Now, as mentioned, if you go with msu units, your opponent only has to kill 20 cultists in a single shooting phase to open a hole for the warp-timed khornate raptors.  6 quad heavy bolters can easily do this, even if they have to move for range/los, letting the raptors assault through the gap, engaging both your predators after signficantly harming at least one of them with their meltaguns.  Now one predator is half dead, neither can shoot next turn, the rapiers are free to focus down your remaining cultists before moving on to strip wounds from your predators, while the raptors withdraw from any counter charge and knock the rest of the wounds off the injured rhino in their next shooting phase, it's a mess.  It's all a mess, because your screen crumbled to 20 wounds of rapier fire.

 

Alternatively, your screen is two units of 30, each a layer around your entire force.  First turn, the raptors again drop down and move up with warp time, and the first rapier squad opens up at your first cultist screen, causing 16 odd wounds.  Ouch!  But 14 cultists are still left blocking the raptors charge.  The opponents second rapier squad can kill the rest of the first cultist squad, or do the same damage to the second, but either way the raptors aren't charging your predators this turn.  They still strip half the wounds of one with their meltaguns, and charge a cultists unit instead, and between their attacks and leadership, let's say all your cultists are dead by the end of the turn... but the predators are still free to fire.  In the following turn, their havoc launchers, heavy bolters, and the lord finish off the raptors, while their autocannons start picking off rapier platforms, and your opponent is left with a rapidly shrinking fire base and a sorcerer vs. two angry tanks and your chaos lord.  Even though all your cultists are dead, things look a lot better for you, because they waited to die until after the opponent's charge phase, instead of before it.

 

 

 

Alternatively, lets consider a wave of genestealers with a pile of shooty bugs following up behind.  This time you get to see the assault threat coming, but between the high movement and ability to advance & charge, you can't just stack screen between your backfield shooters and the genestealers.  They will just run around where your screen is strong, the shooty bugs will shoot through where the screen is weak, the stealers will charge through, both making a mess of your shooting units and preventing them from firing in the next turn.

 

With the big units, there's no around to run, wherever they position the stealers, you'll just pull casualties from somewhere else during your opponents shooting phase.  the stealers charge, probably wipe out the rest of your screen, but next turn your shooty stuff is still free to finish of the stealers at point blank range.

 

 

 

I'm not saying big units are always better than small for cultists, but there is a significant advantage for larger size screens over multiple small screens, if the point of the screen in the first place is to keep your big guns shooting in the critical first few turns of the game.

[bozo69pd]

pox walker for 20 man blobs cultists for msu. Let the poxwalkers go where you fearless tankier guys and let the cultists screen and hold backfield objectives.

[tbone]

I'm surprised no one had mentioned that MSU cultists are our cheapest means of obtaining command points. So they have some additional value with going MSU in the right list.

 

Another thing I think should take some serious consideration is running cultists with a flamer and pistols/BAWs in rhinos with a combi-flamer. I believe this provides some flexibility when making an all-comers list.

-against horde armies, rhinos can mitigate their low S high volume attacks, tank overwatch, and provide the cultist with the charge. Plus flamers can are fairly optimal against hordes.

-against alpha strike lists, the cultists can simply deploy without the rhino and simply use them to push deep strikers away from juicy targets. Since you don't really want the first turn against an alpha strike list anyway. The additional units help.

-Against highly mobile armies, cultists(or any unit without high movement or long range) without a ride will struggle to contribute anything other than objective grabbing. Rhinos provide cultists the movement they need to contribute to the battle.

[bozo69pd]

I don't think I have ever in all my life seen a rhino carrying cultists. I think at that point of investment I would just take chaos marines for 2 pp more.

[Brother Aiwass]

But Mal, there is a problem with large squads. In example you provided, a rapier squad kills 16, and your opponent have 2 of them, you're losing 16 of each squad in turn one, meaning that both of them are technically dead in the morale phase (losing a minimum of 11 on each squad, the average being 13-14). And there is no reason for your opponent to DS his hammer in T1, specially if you castled up, because he first needs to clear and secure a drop zone.

 

For large mobs of cultists to work you need either Huron close to negate morale or the cultists to be poxwalkers.

[Sception]

Yes, but, and this is the important part, they don't die until after the charge/assault phase.  Do you really expect your cultist screens to survive the match?  I don't.  What I do expect them to do is to keep my big guns firing for at least one turn more than they would otherwise.  I would much rather all my cultists were dead, but in dying had secured one more turn of fire from my predators / dreadnoughts / rapiers / batteries / what have you, then 2/3 of my cultists were still alive, but my backfield artillery was silent on one of the critical early turns of the game.

 

And if you're really worried about morale, if you really think their job hasn't already been successfully completed by the time they're getting charged in the first place, there's always Huron, or Abaddon, or renegade Enforcers, any of which remove morale as a concern outright.  Frankly, calling cultists abandoning the field after absorbing that first critical charge a problem is like calling drop pods bad because they can't do anything after having already successfully done the only thing they were there to do in the first place.

[Brother Aiwass]

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Your cultists are dead by the end of T1, so you have your T1 shooting phase, and that's it. T2 melta raptors drop in and melt-assault the predators/backline while rapiers take care of unengaged units, and all is a mess. So yes, enforcers must be taken in consideration if you don't want poxwalkers. Conscript blobs works because of commisars, mid bloobs because of synapse, and so on.

 

If you have the onion working for 2+ turns, then you wouldn't wasted 300(?) points in one-use meatbags.

 

And your DPod metaphor is bad :P

 

Cheers.

[Sception]

Those melta raptors could have dropped in T1 otherwise.  Pushing their assault from T1 to T2 is already one more turn than you would have gotten with small squads where your opponent effectively gets to pick where the casualties in your screens are pulled from.  I would rather start turn one with all my cultists dead but my big guns free to fire than start turn one with half my cultists dead and my big guns engaged in melee.

 

And, again, if you're worried about morale, take huron, abaddon, or enforcers, any of which nullify the concern.

Edited June 30, 2017 by malisteen

[Brother Aiwass]

Which is what I said regarding enforcers :P

 

I do think its a bad DSing T1 unless you do either a suicide run or hard alpha strike.

 

And I'd rather spend 300 points elsewhere than in a couple of blobs that aren't going to live past T1, but to each their own.