Two rules questions...

[major higgins]

Hi there,

A couple of question about these rules:

 

1° They said that when a multi-wounds model is slain, eventual wound in eccess will be wasted, but how does it works on a unit with multi-wounds models? If a take 6 wounds on a model with 4 wounds, but part of a unit of three, the other two wounds go to another model of the same unit, or are wasted?

 

2° On an artillery piece with servants, if a put some servant in front and some in the rear ( keeping coerency between them), and my opponent shoot to my servants, may he kill all of them, or only the closest one, so the models in front?

[Captain_Krash]

1) All wounds are allocated on a model to model basis depending on what weapon is shooting. If it was lets say a Leman russ Battle cannon. It would shoot one shot and all six wounds would be on one model. But if it was lets say 10 lasguns. Then you would roll the saves one at a time until the model is slain. Then you move to the next one continuing to take saves until all wounds are saved/failed.

 

2) The controlling player allocates all wounds now so depending on how many "hits/wounds" he scored you would choose who lives and who is removed.

 

Krash

Edited June 29, 2017 by Captain_Krash

[HackedDuck]

1) All wounds are allocated on a model to model basis depending on what weapon is shooting. If it was lets say a Leman russ Battle cannon. It would shoot one shot and all six wounds would be on one model. But if it was lets say 10 lasguns. Then you would roll the saves one at a time until the model is slain. Then you move to the next one continuing to take saves until all wounds are saved/failed.

 

2) The controlling player allocates all wounds now so depending on how many "hits/wounds" he scored you would choose who lives and who is removed.

 

Krash

Krash got it spot on :)

[duz_]

Remember though, once a model takes a wound, it must continue to take wounds, until it is removed from play. You cannot allocate wounds to new models until this is the case.

 

Also the whole out of line of sight / out of range no longer applies. If your opponent can see 1 model and scores 10 wounds on that squad you will have to apply the wounds to everyone even if they can't see them. No more you killed that 1 model, you can't see the rest of the unit they are safe.

[Indefragable]

Piggybacking on the subject of rules clarification:

 

Yarrick's 3+ Get-Out-Of-Death-Free card:

 

What determines the final wound, especially if some wound do multi-damage?

 

Situation came up last night where he suffered 2x unsaved wounds (so they went through his 4++ power field). It was a D;D6 weapon, so one wound caused D:1, the other D:4. So altogether he suffered 5x unsaved wounds (he has 4W total). So when do you roll his 3+ to stay alive?

[HackedDuck]

Piggybacking on the subject of rules clarification:

 

Yarrick's 3+ Get-Out-Of-Death-Free card:

 

What determines the final wound, especially if some wound do multi-damage?

 

Situation came up last night where he suffered 2x unsaved wounds (so they went through his 4++ power field). It was a D;D6 weapon, so one wound caused D:1, the other D:4. So altogether he suffered 5x unsaved wounds (he has 4W total). So when do you roll his 3+ to stay alive?

Without a rule book on hand I think he would have to make the 3+ twice because the damage isn't wounds as it was in 7th and damage and wounds work differently. I know I'm putting it terribly but he is "reduced to zero wounds" twice not 5 times I think.

 

Someone with an actual rule book on hand could give better insight.

[Captain_Krash]

I'm like 100% sure that when he loses his last wound, RAI then all other wounds are wasted as he is "Killed", then roll the 3+ to restore to 1 wound. This is the only sensible way I can see it being played especially in tournaments etc.

 

Krash

Edited June 29, 2017 by Captain_Krash

[Galron]

@Duz -Until they FAQ that rule to something resembling common sense, remember only models that can see that one model can shoot him, not the whole squad(if the whole squad isnt in LOS). There is still some debate whether shooting is simultaneous and if the first shooter caps him the rest cant shoot. Hopefully GW will put out a FAQ on that and the flamer/overwatch BS. Those two rules actually almost kill this edition for me since they are so insanely counter to common sense and streamlining.

Edited June 29, 2017 by WarriorFish
Swear dodge removed

[duz_]

I'm not sure I understand the order of operations there.

 

What should have happened is

 

Wound 1: Fails save, rolls D:D6, result = X (Remaining wounds < 4)

Wound 2: Fails save, rolls D:D6, result = Y (Damage > Wounds) - Yarrick dies, roll his 3+ 

 

Alternatively if the first one was enough to kill him then unless the words say at the end of phase / begining of next he would do the 3+ roll, get back up, die again and then roll again?

 

 

@Duz -Until they FAQ that rule to something resembling common sense, remember only models that can see that one model can shoot him, not the whole squad(if the whole squad isnt in LOS). There is still some debate whether shooting is simultaneous and if the first shooter caps him the rest cant shoot. Hopefully GW will put out a FAQ on that and the flamer/overwatch BS. Those two rules actually almost kill this edition for me since they are so insanely counter to common sense and streamlining.

 

Not to derail the thread, I was referring to wound allocation. You still need LOS and Range to target a squad, however you do not need LOS or Range to allocate wounds. 

 

I would have to review the wording and sequencing of the shooting phase. You do have to allocate all your shots at the beginning so unless it is like 7th where you take shooting in sequential order there maybe scope for the squad firing everything at once. Although this could probably do with a FAQ depending how the rules are worded. It hasn't come up in my few games thus far. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by WarriorFish
Quote edit added

[Captain_Krash]

There's no way excess wounds carry from the "Shooting/CC" phase to the end of the turn once a model dies. I mean to interpret it the model is "Dead"  once model has lost it's last wound roll +3 to revive to 1 wound. There's no way

 

Yarrick takes 5 wounds roll +3 twice at the end of the turn to see if he comes back.

 

Or another good example what about a punisher cannon shoots at Yarrick, Yarrick fails 15 saves. So he has to roll +3 11 times at the end of the turn?

 

I think we are over thinking this.

 

Krash

Edited June 29, 2017 by Captain_Krash

[Indefragable]

There's no way excess wounds carry from the "Shooting/CC" phase to the end of the turn once a model dies. I mean to interpret it the model is "Dead"  once model has lost it's last wound roll +3 to revive to 1 wound. There's no way

 

Yarrick takes 5 wounds roll +3 twice at the end of the turn to see if he comes back.

 

Or another good example what about a punisher cannon shoots at Yarrick, Yarrick fails 15 saves. So he has to roll +3 11 times at the end of the turn?

 

I think we are over thinking this.

 

Krash

 

The simplest explanation would be "Each time Yarrick is slain, rather than removing him from play, simply put him on his side. At the end of the phase in which he was slain, roll a D6. On a 3+, he returns to life with 1W remaining."

 

That way it's like super FNP and it's a single roll no matter what.

[duz_]

Unfortunately I think it is as painful as it sounds.

 

"Roll a D6 each time Commissar Yarrick loses his final wound; on a roll of 3+ that wound is not lost."

 

So every time a damage wound would push him over he would essentially take an 8th ed style FNP on it.

[Plasmablasts]

The conceptual difficulty I think we have with "wounds" and damage is a hangover from previous editions, where a successful "to wound" roll, if not saved, reduced the target's "wounds" characteristic by 1, so was usually referred to as a "wound". Now, with the Damage characteristic, a "wound" might remove several "wounds" from the target, which gives us rather ambiguous terminology. Maybe we should refer to "unsaved wounding hits" (UWHs), but that's a bit of a mouthful.

 

The Mathammer of multi-damage weapons targeting multi-wound model units is a bit tricky. As you can't carry excess damage over to other models and you have to distribute damage to wounded models first, the number of wounds inflicted on the unit is not always a straight number of UWHs x D.

 

if you want to know the average number of "kills" per UWH, you need to work out the probability of each possible combination.

 

E.G.: weapon with Dd3 vs W 3 target:

 

Probability of killing with one UWH: 1/3

 

Probability of killing with two UWH = probability of rolling 1 then 2+ AND probability of rolling 2 then 1+ = 1/3 x 2/3 + 2/3 x 1 = 5/9

 

Probability of killing with three UWH = 1/3 x 1/3 = 1/9

 

Median number of UWH to kill therefore = 1 x 1/3 + 2 x 5/9 + 3 x 1/9 = 16/9

 

Inverting that gives median number of kills per UWH = 9/16 .

 

By similar reasoning, Dd3 vs 2 W gives 3/4 kills/UWH.

[duz_]

They do need to distinguish better between rolling to wound, damage wounds and amodels' wound profile

[Captain_Krash]

I stand corrected Duz...

 

Man I feel like that is kinda awful. So does that work the same way for St. Celestine?

 

Krash