WolfSpear Chapter

[Guest]

Everyone has talked about Grimnars reaction to wolf spear, I am curious more about Bjorns response. He has disagreed with Logan in the past, so maybe his opinion would be different. I think Bjorns judgement would be more true to the original intent of the SW's than Grimnars.

 

Either way, I have a suspicion that SW will have a dark blue color. Not sure why...

[Filius]

Everyone has talked about Grimnars reaction to wolf spear, I am curious more about Bjorns response. He has disagreed with Logan in the past, so maybe his opinion would be different. I think Bjorns judgement would be more true to the original intent of the SW's than Grimnars.

 

Very interesting thought. I'm currently reading through the "Legacy of the Wulfen" and judging from what goes on there, I think we can almost expect to have half a dozen Wolf Lords with twice as much different opinions on that. Plus Ulrik. Actually it's one of the things, that makes the Wolves more "realistic" than other Chapters: Their antiauthoritarian mindset allows for almost every plausible opposite view within the Chapter regarding almost every topic. It's like in real life … put twelve people of the same hierarchy level in a room, give them a topic to discuss about and you'll have thirteen opinions in the end.

 

Either way, I have a suspicion that SW will have a dark blue color. Not sure why...

 

Ah, hehe, I tried Thunderhawk Blue two years ago and really liked the result … it lets the other colours shine more, and makes the whole Mini grimdarker at the same time.

[MaveriK]

I wonder if they would swear their fealty to logan at all?

[RikuEru]

I wonder if they would swear their fealty to logan at all?

I would like that!

 

Another thought I had was:

Fenris was able to supply the Space Wolves ĹEGION with enough aspirants, back in the day. And the Fang was big enough to resupply and house them all.

 

What if the Wolfspear (and maybe others aswell) really are at home in Fenris?

Recruitment, Resupply, Rituals and bonding sith the SW done on Fenris, everything else mostly done as independent fleet.

[Quixus]

And how did the Space Wolves not even once notice Cawl's meddling in ten thousand years?

[Valerian]

Unless the Space Wolves got a tour of the underground facilities on Mars, how would they have possibly noticed?

[Quixus]

I was referring to RikuEru's idea:

What if the Wolfspear (and maybe others aswell) really are at home in Fenris?

If the Primaris SW reside on Fenris, someone is bound to notice.

[Filius]

I was referring to RikuEru's idea:

What if the Wolfspear (and maybe others aswell) really are at home in Fenris?

If the Primaris SW reside on Fenris, someone is bound to notice.

 

 

I think he means after they were "released" from the Imdingskirchens Cursade, by Roboute Guilliman and given their Homeworld. I mean they can just decide to consider Fenris their real homeworld and only send several Great Companies at a time to Raukos to fullfill their mission …

[Quixus]

Could be, but wasn't there an issue with recruits from other planets than Fenris? I guess Cawl could steal boys from that Death World, but again I think the Wolves would notice.

 

now the name Imdingenskirchens Crusade for Guilliman's latest outing is stuck in my mind.

[Vash113]

Could be, but wasn't there an issue with recruits from other planets than Fenris? I guess Cawl could steal boys from that Death World, but again I think the Wolves would notice.

 

now the name Imdingenskirchens Crusade for Guilliman's latest outing is stuck in my mind.

 

I don't think it's that implausible that agents of the Adeptus Mechanicus could have infiltrated Fenris and recruited a few thousand tribesmen. The Space Wolves might have noticed something odd but would there have been enough on the planet to have detected a mechanicus stealth vessel or react to the absence of a few hundred youths across the tribes of the planet? Unlikely. Same goes for the other legion homeworlds save perhaps Caliban which was likely all exploded by the time he did this, the book doesn't explain how or from where Cawl got his recruits for the Dark Angels, maybe from the crews of Dark Angel ships, or from regiments of the Imperial Army that Caliban had raised and dispatched during the Great Crusade.

 

As for swearing loyalty to Grimnar my answer is this: I hope not! I like the idea of other Space Wolf chapters running around that don't necessarily bend knee to the lord of Fenris in quite so obvious a way as the chapter masters of other primogenitor chapters can call on the loyalty of their successors, it would somewhat undermine the anti authoritarian, individualistic streak of the sons of Russ IMO.

[Filius]

 

Could be, but wasn't there an issue with recruits from other planets than Fenris? I guess Cawl could steal boys from that Death World, but again I think the Wolves would notice.

 

now the name Imdingenskirchens Crusade for Guilliman's latest outing is stuck in my mind.

 

*snip*

 

As for swearing loyalty to Grimnar my answer is this: I hope not! I like the idea of other Space Wolf chapters running around that don't necessarily bend knee to the lord of Fenris in quite so obvious a way as the chapter masters of other primogenitor chapters can call on the loyalty of their successors, it would somewhat undermine the anti authoritarian, individualistic streak of the sons of Russ IMO.

 

 

I'd give you a dozen Likes for that, nay a hundred! If only I could.

I really haven't thought about it yet, but having several Space Wolf Successor Chapters that behave among each other like the Wolflords do within the Space Wolves … that sound like tons of fun!

[Guest]

 

 

Could be, but wasn't there an issue with recruits from other planets than Fenris? I guess Cawl could steal boys from that Death World, but again I think the Wolves would notice.:cuss now the name Imdingenskirchens Crusade for Guilliman's latest outing is stuck in my mind.

 

 

*snip*

 

As for swearing loyalty to Grimnar my answer is this: I hope not! I like the idea of other Space Wolf chapters running around that don't necessarily bend knee to the lord of Fenris in quite so obvious a way as the chapter masters of other primogenitor chapters can call on the loyalty of their successors, it would somewhat undermine the anti authoritarian, individualistic streak of the sons of Russ IMO.

 

I'd give you a dozen Likes for that, nay a hundred! If only I could. ^_^

I really haven't thought about it yet, but having several Space Wolf Successor Chapters that behave among each other like the Wolflords do within the Space Wolves … that sound like tons of fun!

They are not bowing to Grimnar but The Great Wolf Lord of The Wolf That Stalks Between The Stars Company, and High King of Fenris. These are not Grimnars titles but Russ's, Grimnar is acting in his absence. By defying Grimnar you defy Russ himself. By defying Bjorn you defy the sole Wolf Guard of Russ and a prior Great Wolf.

 

Even the Wolf Lords that have fought and disagree with Grimnar must bow to his title, for he is Russ while he is away.

[Lord Blackwood]

Why would any of that matter to  them ?  

They share geneseed with the space wolves but they are not space wolves themselves hm ? 

Maybe they  dont really care what Logan Thinks and are focused on the job they need to do. 

Maybe they bend their knee to the Allfather and the Allfather alone. 

[Guest]

Why would any of that matter to  them ?  

They share geneseed with the space wolves but they are not space wolves themselves hm ? 

Maybe they  dont really care what Logan Thinks and are focused on the job they need to do. 

Maybe they bend their knee to the Allfather and the Allfather alone.

 

So they dont bend the knee to russ or his orders? The Great Wolf position was over all SW's and granted by Russ. Russ is still their gene-father and would still have dominion over them just how Roboute has dominion over the UM successors, or how the BA still follow the lines of Sanguinius.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Why would any of that matter to  them ?  

They share geneseed with the space wolves but they are not space wolves themselves hm ? 

Maybe they  dont really care what Logan Thinks and are focused on the job they need to do. 

Maybe they bend their knee to the Allfather and the Allfather alone.

So they dont bend the knee to russ or his orders? The Great Wolf position was over all SW's and granted by Russ. Russ is still their gene-father and would still have dominion over them just how Roboute has dominion over the UM successors, or how the BA still follow the lines of Sanguinius.

 

 

I get that idea, but it hardly holds water when examined closely.

 

We know there are the Lost, the Wolves too far from home to care about what Fenris orders. They may find the act to return too difficult, so start anew where they are.

We also have Chapters defying the Primogenitor's in the background, so those of Fenris and Russ's seed, but created by Cawl...I can believe they could have their own lords they bend knee to.

 

Why would any of that matter to  them ?  

They share geneseed with the space wolves but they are not space wolves themselves hm ? 

Maybe they  dont really care what Logan Thinks and are focused on the job they need to do. 

Maybe they bend their knee to the Allfather and the Allfather alone.

So they dont bend the knee to russ or his orders? The Great Wolf position was over all SW's and granted by Russ. Russ is still their gene-father and would still have dominion over them just how Roboute has dominion over the UM successors, or how the BA still follow the lines of Sanguinius.

 

 

I get that idea, but it hardly holds water when examined closely.

 

We know there are the Lost, the Wolves too far from home to care about what Fenris orders. They may find the act to return too difficult, so start anew where they are.

We also have Chapters defying the Primogenitor's in the background, so those of Fenris and Russ's seed, but created by Cawl...I can believe they could have their own lords they bend knee to.

[Guest]

A simple explanation that is backed by countless times in books: Space Marines are bound to follow orders, as long as it doesnt go against the Emperors, via their genetic coding. It is ingrained in them all. If Russ returns and demands the Wolfspear to return then they must. The words of a primarch are almost hypnotic and carried out. In multiple book of the Primarch series it shows just that.

 

I would be hard pressed to find a loyal chapter that hasn't answered a first foundings chapter master orders. Even the Flesh Tearers and Black Templars have followed those orders. There is still a heirarchy in the chapter foundings.

[Kelborn]

I can imagine that the Wolves could accept the Wolfspears and any other Primaris original Primaris chapter as their older brothers, being born in the time of Russ. Furthermore, I don't think that the Wolfspear will be a "normal" successor chapter, being under the Space Wolves' bell. Yes, they want to be accepted by their brothers and yes, they want to join their 40K brothers but they will most likely have the same independece loving character, the Wolves had since their foundation.

 

Because of this, they want to choose their own path, creating their own legacy as the sons of Russ. We'll have to wait for more to be released until we can be sure of their entire concept, etc. WIll they adapt to the SWs organizational structure? Will they only rename their squad types or will they keep them as they did during the Indomitus Crusade?

 

There's much potential and I truly hope that the Primaris SW will more be like historical vikings, raiding across the Great Rift and chasing down the Imperium's foes.

 

Regarding possible chapter colors. Don't know if it's helpful but I did something (with the help of Brother Arklay) for my SW chapter, the Warbeasts. It is basically a slighty adapted Wolves 30K color scheme.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

A simple explanation that is backed by countless times in books: Space Marines are bound to follow orders, as long as it doesnt go against the Emperors, via their genetic coding. It is ingrained in them all. If Russ returns and demands the Wolfspear to return then they must. The words of a primarch are almost hypnotic and carried out. In multiple book of the Primarch series it shows just that.

 

I would be hard pressed to find a loyal chapter that hasn't answered a first foundings chapter master orders. Even the Flesh Tearers and Black Templars have followed those orders. There is still a heirarchy in the chapter foundings.

 

Marines Malevolent. They actively fought against First Founding Chapters (the Salamanders). Granted, they soon became traitors.

 

The absolute loyality of Marines to their Primarchs has been dispelled atleast twice without me consulting the books: The Ultrmarine Rubio used his gifts in the caverns of Calth, defying both the Edict and his Primarchs orders, and the Dark Angel Chaplain who stood against the Lion in the use of  psychic powers. 

Heck, even Jorin Bloodhowl lies to Russ's face in the Leman Russ book. 

 

EDIT: just remembered another: The Wolf Lord in Howl of the Hearthworld defies Russ as well. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

[Grimtooth]

A simple explanation that is backed by countless times in books: Space Marines are bound to follow orders, as long as it doesnt go against the Emperors, via their genetic coding. It is ingrained in them all. If Russ returns and demands the Wolfspear to return then they must. The words of a primarch are almost hypnotic and carried out. In multiple book of the Primarch series it shows just that.

 

I would be hard pressed to find a loyal chapter that hasn't answered a first foundings chapter master orders. Even the Flesh Tearers and Black Templars have followed those orders. There is still a heirarchy in the chapter foundings.

Not at all.  We have the whole HH that shows that SM will turn their back on the Emperor (Traitors) and those that will turn their back on their Primarchs (those that remained loyal to the Emperor despite their Legions turning against him).  There was even a loyal interrogator-chaplain that chose the Edict of Nikkea over El'Johnson to his own fatal peril. 

 

My issues with this "successor" chapter is there are some unanswered questions;

 

1.  The Fenrisians taken during the HH, were they aspirants picked by our Choosers of the Slain or just Fenrisians plucked from the tribes at random?  If chosen from aspirants already picked to become SW, then somebody very high up in the Legion (RUSS) would have had to known and approved of this transfer.  If just picked from random tribes by whomever, then they are not really of the quality that would normally be inducted into the SW.

 

2.  I have seen a few posts in other forums about the Primaris SW Librarian.  It seems odd that the majority of this forum as argued that our rune priests are different than librarians, that our rune priests were never part of any Librarius formed under Magnus, and yet it looks like that we will have a formal Librarius-trained Librarian using the SW psychic table.  Our aspirants are screened for the potential to become rune priests by our rune priests and then ultimately trained in our ways of using the power of Fenris and then selected at some point in their lives to become actual rune priests.  If this Primaris SW Librarian has somehow had one of our rune priests training them in the ways of the world spirit of Fenris since RG came back, then once again that approval/transfer had to come from someone within the upper leadership of Fenris.  If not, then we somehow have a SM trained librarian using world spirit powers that was never trained by our rune priests.

[Filius]

We have ahd this part of the Primaris Discussion at least once before. And I think it all boils down to two questions …

 

1. What regard the Space Wolves (and Grimnar and Björn and their Successors) the highest: Loyalty or something else (their Independence, or their gut-feeling, whatever)?

2. Who are they loyal to? To the Allfather? Or to Russ, his Stewards and the exegesis of Russ' Will?

 

I think the existing Fiction has proven time and again, that all of this is true.

Wolf Lords have followed Orders and disobeyed their Leige at more than one occaision, and the Wolves as a whole have been in the focus of the Inquisition more than once. Buuut … when it comes to the question, "what is most plausible" I would stick with Dan Abnetts quote on the Wolves …

 

“Space Marines are inherently tough, but the Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless. They are savage. They are brutal. It begs the question why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist?
That would be to take down another legion.”

 

… why are they permitted to exists: Because of their ruthlessness and their Loyalty, and that means to me the Loyalty at first to the Allfather. And now, that the Allfather is in Coma and one – and only one – of the Allfathers Sons has reappeared and taken controll of the Imperium, I hardly see any way, that Grimnar or any Wolf, defies his Commands. Every single Space Wolf is a being one level below a Primarch, one level further away from the Allfather. And Roboute Guilliman is the only Primarch the Imperium currently has! And that counts double for the Primaris Successor Chapters, who fought side by side with him during the Imdingenskirchens Crusade. Just like Caldersson said "The words of a primarch are almost hypnotic and carried out." Plus: Only one living Wolf has ever heard a Word of Russ by himself. All the other Wolves only live and act and fight by the hearsay of Russ' Words (although I do admint that "hearsay" is pretty important thing to the Wolves, hehe) …

 

 

To make sure we don't missunderstand us here: I'm sure the very talented Writers of the Black Library can find a way to Make Grimnar or Björn or Ragnar or anyone of the Wolfspear work around Commands of Roboute Guilliman *krcks* … because … *phrrrt* … What? … *shhhhh* … can you read me? But … until I am convinced of the opposite in form of Fiction, I tend to consider the above explained in general just as more plausible. Of course anyone and especially any Wolf can see that different … and I guess we just have to wait until the Black Library explains to us, how these things fit together …

[Grimtooth]

Not really.

 

The Wolves are not going to suddenly convert GH to Tactical Squads and toss all their Blood Claws into a Scout Company, which by your standard they would immediately considering RG wrote the Codex Astartes and he is the only Primarch alive right now. The Wolves fight the way the Wolves fight because that is how Russ intended it.

 

Frankly I will go with Bjorn on this one and his reaction to the Tempering in Battle of the Fang because that venture was not as Russ intended either.

 

But back on the other point on where loyalty will lie, I truly believe it will be with RG. Primaris SW do not fight like Wolves, they fight as RG designed them to fight. Their unit sizes and roles are his tactical genius handiwork. Their very existence is by his design and creation. In addition they shared the battlefield with him akin to the Terran and Fenrisian Wolves under Russ' design.

 

So there will be SW Intercessors, Hellblasters, Inceptors, etc, and etc but make no mistake, they will fight as RG designed them, trained them, and refined them on the battlefield which in turn makes them his Intercessors, Hellblasters, etc, and etc.

[Quixus]

But back on the other point on where loyalty will lie, I truly believe it will be with RG. Primaris SW do not fight like Wolves, they fight as RG designed them to fight. Their unit sizes and roles are his tactical genius handiwork. Their very existence is by his design and creation. In addition they shared the battlefield with him akin to the Terran and Fenrisian Wolves under Russ' design.

Hmm, didn't we have bolter only squads and plasma squads before the heresy? It seems their unit composition is a step backwards, if the codex astartes is as great as the smurfs claim.

[Filius]

Uhm … I'm afraid we did missunderstand us here, although I tried to avoid that: I said, that I consider the hierarchy of loyaltiy IN GENERAL more plausible and especially, when it comes to the question of how the Wolfspear acts and how the Space Wolves react regarding the Wolfspear. I thought, that this was the topic here. And of course it didn't apply to every topic imaginable …

 

Of course it is implausible, that the Wolves would change their Chapters Structure. It has been like this for 10.000 years, it has been explicitly outlined by Russ and treated as okay by the Imperium and it's institutions for 10.000 years.

And it implausible because it is implausible, that Roboute Guilliman would demand something like that. He already – more or less – agreed with that 10.000 years ago and he has no need to struggle with the Wolves about this.

 

When it come to the question what will actually be happening, how the Wolfspear and the Primaris within the Space Wolves will act and be integrated in the Lore I'm currently completly open and looking forward to what the Writers will come up with. If they find a way to integrate them nicely: Fine for me. If they don't integrate them: Fine for me. If it get's bumpy and clacking and feels like forced together, I'll howl with you about how bumby and clacking that is … but until then, I stick with what Vash said "We really don't have any solid information …"

[Filius]

 

But back on the other point on where loyalty will lie, I truly believe it will be with RG. Primaris SW do not fight like Wolves, they fight as RG designed them to fight. Their unit sizes and roles are his tactical genius handiwork. Their very existence is by his design and creation. In addition they shared the battlefield with him akin to the Terran and Fenrisian Wolves under Russ' design.

Hmm, didn't we have bolter only squads and plasma squads before the heresy? It seems their unit composition is a step backwards, if the codex astartes is as great as the smurfs claim.

 

 

It's his Book. And he didn't have Primaris, when he wrote it. And it's not like the rest of the Galaxy didn't change since the first Edition of the Codex was published. So … having a revised Edition every 10.000 years is not all to demanding for your readers, I think …

[Quixus]

 

 

But back on the other point on where loyalty will lie, I truly believe it will be with RG. Primaris SW do not fight like Wolves, they fight as RG designed them to fight. Their unit sizes and roles are his tactical genius handiwork. Their very existence is by his design and creation. In addition they shared the battlefield with him akin to the Terran and Fenrisian Wolves under Russ' design.

Hmm, didn't we have bolter only squads and plasma squads before the heresy? It seems their unit composition is a step backwards, if the codex astartes is as great as the smurfs claim.

 

 

It's his Book. And he didn't have Primaris, when he wrote it. And it's not like the rest of the Galaxy didn't change since the first Edition of the Codex was published. So … having a revised Edition every 10.000 years is not all to demanding for your readers, I think …

 

What I mean is that the structure of bolter only tactical squads and plasma support squads was a good idea before the heresy. Guilliman thought that only one special weapon and one heavy weapon in a squad was a good idea (unless they were devastators) but special weapons for everyone in the squad was practically unheard of (outside of command squads). But now it seems to be OK again, but only for the new marines. That makes no sense. A plasma gun has the same threat range as a boltgun, but is more deadly, so why wouldn't someone want to equip a whole squad with them? It could be prohibitively expensive, but that should be even more true for plasma incinerators, which are just plasma guns with longer range. And if Guilliman/Cawl found a way to produce plasma incinerators much more cheaply than plasma guns, why didn't he put smaller grips on them to equip regular marines with them?